The theological fallacy of a spiritual 'resurrection'

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Timtofly

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But Rev 20:12-13 describe the saved and unsaved are resurrected at the same time.
Rev 20:13b "and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them"

Seeing as death is the domain of the dead believer (bosom of Abraham) and hell is the domain of the damned, Rev 20:13 seems to say that those two locations give up their occupants simultaneously.
Death is those removed from the Lamb's book of life.

Those in sheol are still named in the Lamb's book of life.

The Lamb's book of life is still sealed until after the Second Coming. No name has yet been removed.
 

David Boyer

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Death is those removed from the Lamb's book of life.

Those in sheol are still named in the Lamb's book of life.

The Lamb's book of life is still sealed until after the Second Coming. No name has yet been removed.

Simultaneous resurrection and judgement, is what I just heard you say.

EDIT: And where do you get the ideas of Death is those removed from the Book of Life, when you say that No name has yet been removed? And Sheol (Hell) is for those named in the Book of Life?

I just let Jesus sort it out in the story(not parable) of the rich man and Lazarus.
And Jesus didn't preach what you are slinging.
 
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Timtofly

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Simultaneous resurrection and judgement, is what I just heard you say.

EDIT: And where do you get the ideas of Death is those removed from the Book of Life, when you say that No name has yet been removed? And Sheol (Hell) is for those named in the Book of Life?

I just let Jesus sort it out in the story(not parable) of the rich man and Lazarus.
And Jesus didn't preach what you are slinging.
Hebrews 2:9

"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man."

Luke 9:23-27

"And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it. For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away? For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels. But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God."

Why would you think the redeemed would ever taste death after the Cross? Do you not accept that Jesus emptied out Abraham's bosom at the Cross?

The judgment was placed on Jesus on the Cross. Why would you take that judgment upon yourself?

The first mention of Death is found when the 4th Seal is opened. Those who take the mark are removed from the Lamb's book of life. That is their decision to absolutely reject the Atonement of the Cross. Those who disobey in the Millennium will be placed in Death. No excuses and no redemption. They are cursed.

The Lamb's book of life are those redeemed by the Cross. Until they are removed and no longer redeemed. The Lamb's book of life is still sealed until that 7th Seal is opened. It cannot be edited while sealed.
 

ewq1938

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But Rev 20:12-13 describe the saved and unsaved are resurrected at the same time.
Rev 20:13b "and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them"

Saved people do not come from "death and hell". Saved people resurrect at the Rev 20:4 timeframe. By 20:12 the only dead left are the unsaved.



Seeing as death is the domain of the dead believer (bosom of Abraham) and hell is the domain of the damned, Rev 20:13 seems to say that those two locations give up their occupants simultaneously.


Both places are places of the unsaved dead. You left out the sea which is another place for them. Abraham's bosom is heaven and it is not spoken of there because no one is coming from there at that time.
 

David Boyer

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Saved people do not come from "death and hell". Saved people resurrect at the Rev 20:4 timeframe. By 20:12 the only dead left are the unsaved.






Both places are places of the unsaved dead. You left out the sea which is another place for them. Abraham's bosom is heaven and it is not spoken of there because no one is coming from there at that time.

That is not what the text says.. Maybe reread.
I didn't leave out the sea as it was not part of the discussion until now. Are there no Christians in the sea? At what other time does the sea give up the Christian dead?
Death is just the state of not being physically alive according to my concordance. So are Christians not physically alive when they die? Correct. So Christians are in a state of Death, as Jesus taught.
Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

The beggar died. Was in a state of Death. Abraham's bosom would just be where Abraham is. A place called Death. Alive as a spiritual being, but not physically alive.

According to your beliefs heaven is hell adjacent. Communication is possible between heaven and hell? By the common dead(not just God and Satan talking)?
Can a soul in hell have a conversation with a soul in heaven? Your view of heaven and hell seems to be the non biblical one. I'm just believing that Jesus was not lying to us about the nature of the afterlife. You seem to think that what Jesus said was a metaphor(a lie).
 

David Boyer

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Hebrews 2:9

"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man."

Luke 9:23-27

"And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it. For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away? For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels. But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God."

Why would you think the redeemed would ever taste death after the Cross? Do you not accept that Jesus emptied out Abraham's bosom at the Cross?

The judgment was placed on Jesus on the Cross. Why would you take that judgment upon yourself?

The first mention of Death is found when the 4th Seal is opened. Those who take the mark are removed from the Lamb's book of life. That is their decision to absolutely reject the Atonement of the Cross. Those who disobey in the Millennium will be placed in Death. No excuses and no redemption. They are cursed.

The Lamb's book of life are those redeemed by the Cross. Until they are removed and no longer redeemed. The Lamb's book of life is still sealed until that 7th Seal is opened. It cannot be edited while sealed.


Where in the Bible does it say that Abraham's bosom was emptied after the cross, when Jesus said to the thief "today you will be with me in paradise"... not heaven, not my fathers house, not in eternal Jerusalem, but in paradise (another name for death or bosom of Abraham).
Judgement is not placed upon you in death. Lazarus was comforted in paradise. The rich man... not so much.

The first mention of Death is not at the 4th seal. Wow you haven't actually read Revelation in a while or you wouldn't make such a bald faced lie.
Rev 1:18 I am he that lives, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for ever more, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
You only missed the mark by 5 chapters. And why is Death and Hell never combined? Always together but not the same. And at the 4th seal there is no reference to the Book of Life, or the mark, or a voluntary rejection of the Cross. You are adding words to the book of prophecy. Careful of that curse you have coming to you.

Where is the sealed scroll equated to the Book of Life? Wow you like to grab ideas out of your imagination to make the Bible say what you want.

Good luck with your tribulation period plagues.
 

Timtofly

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Where in the Bible does it say that Abraham's bosom was emptied after the cross, when Jesus said to the thief "today you will be with me in paradise"... not heaven, not my fathers house, not in eternal Jerusalem, but in paradise (another name for death or bosom of Abraham).
Judgement is not placed upon you in death. Lazarus was comforted in paradise. The rich man... not so much.

The first mention of Death is not at the 4th seal. Wow you haven't actually read Revelation in a while or you wouldn't make such a bald faced lie.
Rev 1:18 I am he that lives, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for ever more, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
You only missed the mark by 5 chapters. And why is Death and Hell never combined? Always together but not the same. And at the 4th seal there is no reference to the Book of Life, or the mark, or a voluntary rejection of the Cross. You are adding words to the book of prophecy. Careful of that curse you have coming to you.

Where is the sealed scroll equated to the Book of Life? Wow you like to grab ideas out of your imagination to make the Bible say what you want.

Good luck with your tribulation period plagues.
When did the Garden of Eden become a place for souls, when an angel guarded the door keeping Adam and all his offspring out?

Should it not be called Adam's bosom then?

Paradise means Garden. The Cross opened the Garden, and removed the angel that guarded the entrance. The Cross also was the means of the Lamb's book of life. No one could be redeemed and named in that book until the Lamb was slain.

If you don't see the difference between the Death of being removed from the Lamb's book of life, and normal physical death, that is your choice. People are not removed from the Lamb's book of life when they physically die.

Matthew 27 claims those in their graves in Abraham's bosom, came out in physical bodies. Abraham's bosom was emptied with a resurrection. They all then ascended to Paradise. Paradise is that city in heaven, but will be the New Jerusalem in the next reality. The Garden is where the tree of life is. Paradise is where the tree of life is. The New Jerusalem is where the tree of life will be. The tree of life was never in Abraham's bosom. Souls were in Abraham's bosom. Permanent incorruptible physical bodies enjoy Paradise, where they can eat freely of the tree of life.
 

David Boyer

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When did the Garden of Eden become a place for souls, when an angel guarded the door keeping Adam and all his offspring out?

Should it not be called Adam's bosom then?

Paradise means Garden. The Cross opened the Garden, and removed the angel that guarded the entrance. The Cross also was the means of the Lamb's book of life. No one could be redeemed and named in that book until the Lamb was slain.

If you don't see the difference between the Death of being removed from the Lamb's book of life, and normal physical death, that is your choice. People are not removed from the Lamb's book of life when they physically die.

Matthew 27 claims those in their graves in Abraham's bosom, came out in physical bodies. Abraham's bosom was emptied with a resurrection. They all then ascended to Paradise. Paradise is that city in heaven, but will be the New Jerusalem in the next reality. The Garden is where the tree of life is. Paradise is where the tree of life is. The New Jerusalem is where the tree of life will be. The tree of life was never in Abraham's bosom. Souls were in Abraham's bosom. Permanent incorruptible physical bodies enjoy Paradise, where they can eat freely of the tree of life.

Nope. That is silly.

Right people are not removed from the Book of Life when they die. They are removed from life into death. If they are not in the Book then they are assigned to hell, not just death.

And upon the events of Rev 21:1 you will be moderately correct, except that the New Jerusalem will be on the New Earth, not Heaven. Rev 21+22 are on the New Earth, not the old heaven.
 

Timtofly

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Nope. That is silly.

Right people are not removed from the Book of Life when they die. They are removed from life into death. If they are not in the Book then they are assigned to hell, not just death.

And upon the events of Rev 21:1 you will be moderately correct, except that the New Jerusalem will be on the New Earth, not Heaven. Rev 21+22 are on the New Earth, not the old heaven.
Look up every time Paradise is used and then explain how Paradise is death in sheol.

No one has been removed from the Lamb's book of life. It is still sealed and cannot even be opened. Revelation 5:1-5

"And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof."

Verse 9:

"And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;"

Why do you think it is called the Lamb's book of life? Because Jesus as the Lamb slain from the foundation of creation was the Atonement, and the only way names can even be found in the Lamb's book of life. GOD elected all humanity ever to be conceived to be placed in the Lamb's book of life. Only after the 7th Seal is opened, can a name be removed. This is the end of Adam's 6,000 year reign of sin. No one is removed until all are accounted for.

The church is glorified and complete before the 7th Seal is even opened. The 144k are sealed before the 7th Seal is even opened. After the 7th Seal is opened, names are going to be removed, starting with the goats in Matthew 25. That is Death. Not just physically removed from Adam's dead flesh, but removed from the Lamb's book of life, and tossed into the LOF.

But many will be placed in Death, when they take the mark of the beast. There is no being put back into the Lamb's book of life at that point. That Death is emptied into the LOF.
 

David Boyer

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Look up every time Paradise is used and then explain how Paradise is death in sheol.

No one has been removed from the Lamb's book of life. It is still sealed and cannot even be opened. Revelation 5:1-5

"And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof."

Verse 9:

"And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;"

Why do you think it is called the Lamb's book of life? Because Jesus as the Lamb slain from the foundation of creation was the Atonement, and the only way names can even be found in the Lamb's book of life. GOD elected all humanity ever to be conceived to be placed in the Lamb's book of life. Only after the 7th Seal is opened, can a name be removed. This is the end of Adam's 6,000 year reign of sin. No one is removed until all are accounted for.

The church is glorified and complete before the 7th Seal is even opened. The 144k are sealed before the 7th Seal is even opened. After the 7th Seal is opened, names are going to be removed, starting with the goats in Matthew 25. That is Death. Not just physically removed from Adam's dead flesh, but removed from the Lamb's book of life, and tossed into the LOF.

But many will be placed in Death, when they take the mark of the beast. There is no being put back into the Lamb's book of life at that point. That Death is emptied into the LOF.

Paradise is death, NOT Sheol. As per Jesus on the cross. IMO.

Who put the names on the scroll if it is sealed? And it is full so at the time of it passing into the Lambs hands the scroll was finished being written. By whom? And who says that the scroll in Rev 5:1-5 is the Book of Life? If no work can be done on the scroll, who added the names?

I don't agree with silly pre/mid/post-trib rapture nonsense. So we don't die until the 7th seal? Call the cemetery as many alive people are locked up down there.

You and I have different views on Death. I say (and most concordances and biology textbooks) that Death is absence of life. And you just said "put back in the book of life" but I thought it was sealed? Make up your mind. Hell is emptied into LOF after judgement, and Death is brought to life after judgement. That is how I read Rev 20:12-13.
 

WPM

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Where in the Bible does it say that Abraham's bosom was emptied after the cross, when Jesus said to the thief "today you will be with me in paradise"... not heaven, not my fathers house, not in eternal Jerusalem, but in paradise (another name for death or bosom of Abraham).

I'm not sure who has taught you this or whether you have truly tried to put the inspired dots together but this is totally unbiblical. Let us let Scripture speak for itself. It shows that paradise = the third heaven = the New Jerusalem

In the New Testament, Paradise becomes synonymous with heaven and the New Jerusalem. It was this same place that Paul the Apostle testified, in 2 Corinthians 12:4. After the cross, after the emptying of Abraham bosom, Paul testified in 2 Corinthians 12:2-4: “I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.”

Paradise = the third heaven.

If we compare the location of “the tree of life” in Revelation 2:7 (paradise) and Revelation 22:2, 14 (New Jerusalem), we see that paradise is clearly the New Jerusalem. Revelation 2:7 says, “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; to him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.” Clearly “the tree of life” in Revelation 2:7 resides within Paradise.

In Revelation 21:2 “John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.”

In Revelation 22:2, 14 he further describes, In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.”

We can safely deduce that the word Paradise is used as another name for the heavenly abode, and particularly the New Jerusalem. No one would surely doubt the location of “the tree of life” here in Revelation 22:2, 14. It is located in the New Jerusalem.

Paradise = the third heaven = the New Jerusalem.

Paradise was lost right up until the cross. It only became accessible through Christ’s death on the cross. We see the great historic change in Christ’s promise to the dying penitent thief on the cross in Luke 23:43, “Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise [paradeisos]”

Here Jesus was anticipating His atoning death and His conquering of the grave. His Spirit would not be detained in Hades, but rather conquer Hades, releasing the spirits of the redeemed from their detainment in Abraham’s bosom and ascent into the presence of God.

How could Jesus promise this thief Paradise when every other believer since the fall went direct to Abraham’s bosom upon death?

He was about to secure the necessary victory that would open up the gates of heaven to the redeemed Old Testament saints to enter direct into Paradise. He was announcing a massive change in the location believers went to upon death since the beginning of time. He was revealing something absolutely new. Through the work of Christ, God’s people at death would now be taken into the holy presence of God. It took the transaction of the new covenant to realize that.
 

Timtofly

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Paradise is death, NOT Sheol. As per Jesus on the cross. IMO.

Who put the names on the scroll if it is sealed? And it is full so at the time of it passing into the Lambs hands the scroll was finished being written. By whom? And who says that the scroll in Rev 5:1-5 is the Book of Life? If no work can be done on the scroll, who added the names?

I don't agree with silly pre/mid/post-trib rapture nonsense. So we don't die until the 7th seal? Call the cemetery as many alive people are locked up down there.

You and I have different views on Death. I say (and most concordances and biology textbooks) that Death is absence of life. And you just said "put back in the book of life" but I thought it was sealed? Make up your mind. Hell is emptied into LOF after judgement, and Death is brought to life after judgement. That is how I read Rev 20:12-13.
I did not say "put back". I said "cannot be put back".

God put the names there. John 3:16.

death is just death, but Death is the removal from the Book of Life. You are not dead if you are in Christ. If you claim death for yourself, you are not in God's redemption, and you certainly seem to think you want your name removed for some reason, just to prove you are dead?

You are really not paying attention. Once the physical act of the Cross was completed, those tasting death in Abraham's bosom, no longer tasted death. David called it the valley of the shadow of death. Not death, but a shadow. Jesus called it Abraham's bosom. The grave was a holding cell, until the Cross unlocked Paradise, Eden where the tree of life was. At that point the souls in Christ never tasted death, the shadow of death, nor Abraham's bosom, ever again. The first physical resurrection was a done deal. Jesus did not stay in death, but rose from the grave 3 days later. Why would any one in Christ still be in death?
 

David Boyer

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I'm not sure who has taught you this or whether you have truly tried to put the inspired dots together but this is totally unbiblical. Let us let Scripture speak for itself. It shows that paradise = the third heaven = the New Jerusalem

In the New Testament, Paradise becomes synonymous with heaven and the New Jerusalem. It was this same place that Paul the Apostle testified, in 2 Corinthians 12:4. After the cross, after the emptying of Abraham bosom, Paul testified in 2 Corinthians 12:2-4: “I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.”

Paradise = the third heaven.

If we compare the location of “the tree of life” in Revelation 2:7 (paradise) and Revelation 22:2, 14 (New Jerusalem), we see that paradise is clearly the New Jerusalem. Revelation 2:7 says, “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; to him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.” Clearly “the tree of life” in Revelation 2:7 resides within Paradise.

In Revelation 21:2 “John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.”

In Revelation 22:2, 14 he further describes, In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.”

We can safely deduce that the word Paradise is used as another name for the heavenly abode, and particularly the New Jerusalem. No one would surely doubt the location of “the tree of life” here in Revelation 22:2, 14. It is located in the New Jerusalem.

Paradise = the third heaven = the New Jerusalem.

Paradise was lost right up until the cross. It only became accessible through Christ’s death on the cross. We see the great historic change in Christ’s promise to the dying penitent thief on the cross in Luke 23:43, “Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise [paradeisos]”

Here Jesus was anticipating His atoning death and His conquering of the grave. His Spirit would not be detained in Hades, but rather conquer Hades, releasing the spirits of the redeemed from their detainment in Abraham’s bosom and ascent into the presence of God.

How could Jesus promise this thief Paradise when every other believer since the fall went direct to Abraham’s bosom upon death?

He was about to secure the necessary victory that would open up the gates of heaven to the redeemed Old Testament saints to enter direct into Paradise. He was announcing a massive change in the location believers went to upon death since the beginning of time. He was revealing something absolutely new. Through the work of Christ, God’s people at death would now be taken into the holy presence of God. It took the transaction of the new covenant to realize that.


Barflgab... where in NT was Bosom of Abraham emptied????
New Jerusalem is on New Earth Rev 21:1-2
Third heaven would be God's throne room. heaven 1 would be sky, heaven 2 would be space, heaven 3 God's Throne Room.
Paradise = Heaven.... in the colloquial sense... yes. Literal... NO.

Where is BoA emptied????
 

David Boyer

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I did not say "put back". I said "cannot be put back".

God put the names there. John 3:16.

death is just death, but Death is the removal from the Book of Life. You are not dead if you are in Christ. If you claim death for yourself, you are not in God's redemption, and you certainly seem to think you want your name removed for some reason, just to prove you are dead?

You are really not paying attention. Once the physical act of the Cross was completed, those tasting death in Abraham's bosom, no longer tasted death. David called it the valley of the shadow of death. Not death, but a shadow. Jesus called it Abraham's bosom. The grave was a holding cell, until the Cross unlocked Paradise, Eden where the tree of life was. At that point the souls in Christ never tasted death, the shadow of death, nor Abraham's bosom, ever again. The first physical resurrection was a done deal. Jesus did not stay in death, but rose from the grave 3 days later. Why would any one in Christ still be in death?

Where does it say in the bible anything you are saying?

Where is it that those in BoA were tasting death? And that they no longer do?
David called the valley of the shadow of death which could easily be paraphrased as the "valley of the fear of imminent death".
Where in the Bible are these ideas said? You have stated opinion only. Why would they still be in Death... to be comforted as Lazarus was.
If there is no one in Death and everyone is in Hell or Heaven... then why does Jesus have the keys to Death and Hell. Is He just keeping the door shut, or using it to store the brooms?
 

WPM

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Barflgab... where in NT was Bosom of Abraham emptied????
New Jerusalem is on New Earth Rev 21:1-2
Third heaven would be God's throne room. heaven 1 would be sky, heaven 2 would be space, heaven 3 God's Throne Room.
Paradise = Heaven.... in the colloquial sense... yes. Literal... NO.

Where is BoA emptied????

You just avoided the evidence presented and are now attempting to deviate off in another direction. That is always a sign of concealing error. Please check your NT before coming out with stuff like this. I should not need to show you this if you have a NT at home.

Jesus said in Matthew 22:32, “I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”

Saints never die.

Jesus said in Mark 12:27 records, “He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.”

Jesus said in Luke 20:38 records, For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.”

The Bible says they are alive.

Philippians 2:9-11 says, “Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”

Here are the three places that men can currently be found – heaven, earth, and hell. Whilst saved and lost can both be found on earth, only the redeemed are in heaven and only the wicked are in hell. Revelation 5:3 repeats that, saying, “And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.”

Ephesians 3:14-15 alludes to the only two places where God's people can be found today, saying, “For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named.”

Family or 'patria' represents paternal descent lineage, family kindred. It is also found in Luke 2:4, Acts 3:25 denoting house[hold] or family.

Ephesians 1:10 records: “That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him.”

Colossians 1:20: “having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.”

When Christ comes He will bring the dead in Christ with Him. Jesus said in Matthew 24:31, of His Coming, “And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

Mark 13:27 enlarges slightly, saying, “And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”

I Thessalonians 3:13 says, “To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints."

1 Thessalonians 4:14 says, “For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Jude 14 similarly says, “And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints. To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”

Luke 9:28-31 says of Christ, “he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray. And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering. And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.”

Moses and Elijah were still very much alive and kicking!!!

Jesus said to the dying thief, in Luke 23:43, "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

Acts 7:59-60 records, “And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.”

Jesus was prepared to welcome Stephen home. His spirit was separating from his body and went to be with God. However, his body was going to the grave.

Once a person gets saved they are made spiritually alive through spiritual resurrection. This involves a spiritual birth. As a result, they enter into eternal life and consequently never die.

Death for the believer, is not the end. It is the beginning of the eternal state! There, the elect is liberated from all the physical bodily afflictions that blight our earthly sojourn. Our body may die and go into the grave, awaiting the resurrection, but our spirit goes immediately into the presence of God.

Repeated Scripture proves that bodily death cannot separate the believer from Christ. Whether it is in life or whether it is in death, nothing can separate God’s people from their Lord. Where He is we will be also.

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,


When Jesus comes on the day of redemption, on the last day, the bodies of all believers will be resurrected in the resurrection of the just and changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible.

2 Corinthians 5:8 says, "We are confident, I say, and willing rather ‘to be absent’ from the body, and ‘to be present’ with the Lord."

‘ekdeemeesai’ – ‘be absent’
‘endeemeesai’ – ‘be present’

Paul said in Philippians 1:21-24 says, “For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.”

Death was a promotion for Paul!!!

1 Thessalonians 5:10 tells us that Christ “died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.”

The writer to the Hebrews censures your beliefs in Hebrews 12:18, 22-23, saying, “For ye are not come (plural perfect active indicative)unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest … But ye are come (plural perfect active indicative) unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect.”

Here, currently, we see where the dead in Christ are right now. They are not hovering about aimlessly upon death as you would suggest. These highlighted references in the original relate to the present, and are active, meaning the subject continues to exist in the state indicated by the verb. They relate to the here-and-now and are ongoing. They speak of our immediate entry into the kingdom of God and our current spiritual standing in the New Jerusalem. The heavenly Jerusalem is more than a future hope (even though it most assuredly is that), it is a present reality.

We have access to the holy of holies through the life, death and resurrection of Christ. We now have an open heaven. Hebrews 10:19-20 confirms: Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh.”
 

David Boyer

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God of the living. Check. Living where? Living in a place called paradise, Bosom of Abraham, death, the grave... etc.
Heaven, hell or earth... hmm. Well Revelation can be metaphor and you say Revelation repeats it, but you didn't show the first place.
Moses and Elijah alive. Yep. In the Bosom of Abraham. AKA Death.
Thanks for mentioning Stephan... Death, also known as Sleep.
Your references in Romans... are by definition Paul's opinion... "I am persuaded..." but I accept all that (it doesn't add anything to your argument though).
2 Cor 5:8 reference is likewise opinion. "we are confident, I say..."
I also agree that death is a nice promotion as one can not sin in the Bosom of Abraham.
1 Thes 5:10 "whether we wake or sleep..." so we are in Heaven while we live? For it says while we are awake we are with Him. So which is it?
I don't follow your logic with the Hebrews reference.
Who suggested you hover aimlessly???? Reread Luke 16:20-31.
And finally yes we have access, through prayer and supplication, but death? Nope.
 

WPM

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God of the living. Check. Living where? Living in a place called paradise, Bosom of Abraham, death, the grave... etc.
Heaven, hell or earth... hmm. Well Revelation can be metaphor and you say Revelation repeats it, but you didn't show the first place.
Moses and Elijah alive. Yep. In the Bosom of Abraham. AKA Death.
Thanks for mentioning Stephan... Death, also known as Sleep.
Your references in Romans... are by definition Paul's opinion... "I am persuaded..." but I accept all that (it doesn't add anything to your argument though).
2 Cor 5:8 reference is likewise opinion. "we are confident, I say..."
I also agree that death is a nice promotion as one can not sin in the Bosom of Abraham.
1 Thes 5:10 "whether we wake or sleep..." so we are in Heaven while we live? For it says while we are awake we are with Him. So which is it?
I don't follow your logic with the Hebrews reference.
Who suggested you hover aimlessly???? Reread Luke 16:20-31.
And finally yes we have access, through prayer and supplication, but death? Nope.

I am done talking with you. You cannot even address the initial post i gave that showed that Paradise = the third heaven = the New Jerusalem.
This demolished your whole thesis. Once that was gone you had nothing. Thanks!
 
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David Boyer

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I am done talking with you. You cannot even address the initial post i gave that showed that Paradise = the third heaven = the New Jerusalem.
This demolished your whole thesis. Once that was gone you had nothing. Thanks!

I addressed all your concerns. Maybe you didn't read it correctly.

Third heaven is Gods Throne Room.
Paradise is where Lazarus was, also called Bosom of Abraham.
New Jerusalem is a place on New Earth as per Rev 21:1-2.

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David Boyer

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I am done talking with you. You cannot even address the initial post i gave that showed that Paradise = the third heaven = the New Jerusalem.
This demolished your whole thesis. Once that was gone you had nothing. Thanks!

As soon as Christ died there was a mass evacuation from Hades.

Ephesians 4:8-10 says, when he (Christ) ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.).”


One last repeated question. Where in the New Testament does it say that the Bosom of Abraham was emptied?
Really, do you have a reference for that?
Where does it say BoA was emptied, definitively, not conjecture, but solid textual basis for the emptying of the Bosom of Abraham or, as I like to call it, Paradise.
 

WPM

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One last repeated question. Where in the New Testament does it say that the Bosom of Abraham was emptied?
Really, do you have a reference for that?
Where does it say BoA was emptied, definitively, not conjecture, but solid textual basis for the emptying of the Bosom of Abraham or, as I like to call it, Paradise.

Matt 27:44-57

35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots…
44 The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.
45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour (this is from midday till 3pm).
46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?


47 Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias.
48 And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink.
49 The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him.
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

Look what all is going on here. Immediately upon Christ’s death the earthquake arrives causing the curtain in the temple to be cut in two. This showed us that the work was indeed complete. The penalty was paid.

The “centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.” This was the scene at the cross. This is not a natural disaster that hit 3 days later.

Having established that the earthquake occurred when He gave up the ghost, verse 52 adds more information as to what was going on: “And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”

Where actually where these resurrected “saints which slept” before Christ secured this resurrection?

Abraham’s bosom.

We can only conclude that the emptying of Abraham’s bosom occurred at the cross.

As soon as Christ died there was a mass evacuation from Hades.

Ephesians 4:8-10 says, when he (Christ) ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.).”

The result of this can be where the New Testament locates the dead in Christ after the victory of the death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Who is this group that is called “captivity” here? It is those sinful men that would be set free by Christ’s victory over death. They were miserably bound in solid spiritual chains. They were imprisoned in a dark prison without any hope of pardon or release. Isaiah 14:17 succinctly tells us that Lucifer “opened not the house of his prisoner.” They had no ability to free themselves from their awful jail. With Christ’s triumphant resurrection, all those who bow the knee to Christ and His shed blood at Calvary are liberated from the ugly clutches of Satan.

Whilst they were captives of the devil from birth, they found in Christ an escape from their awful bondage. Christ indeed “led captivity captive” when He defeated Satan at the cross and rose victorious to the splendour of heaven. He confronted Lucifer on the believer’s behalf and roundly defeated him. He was their representative. Jesus paid their enormous debt the believer owed and took their sentence upon Himself. We are therefore the spoils of war. We are the trophies of His grace.
 
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