The theological fallacy of a spiritual 'resurrection'

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WPM

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Great!

Now, since we got off track a little (sorry for the post tag shuffle ;))...the main point that I was making, is that the chronology of the world, and the non-chronology of eternal events--for lack of a better term, come in "real time." Meaning, there is no discrepancy between the past tense language used in the scriptures...like "before" the foundation of the world, or we "were" crucified with Christ. But rather that the language is a form of translation of what is otherwise eternal seemingly placed with in a timeline. There is much more that can be said of this phenomena, but I shouldn't confuse matters.

The confusion that is most important to discuss, is that of misunderstanding that things that would seem to be yet future (as the world would see it), are only future for those who have yet to witness them. Perhaps I've said enough.

Well put!
 
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ewq1938

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Yes, this is the Premill interpretation of Rev 20.
It is one way to interpret that passage.
My problem with interpretting it this way, is 1) it creates conflict and confusion with the dozens of clear passages in the gospels and NT epistles that teach the 2nd coming is the climax of human mortal history and the day the faithful are rewarded and the wicked are judged and cast out; and

Rev 20 is quite clear on the two days of judgment and resurrection. No other passage contradicts that although none are as clear as Rev is.


2) every single mention of group resurrection in the bible refer to it as ‘the resurrection’ singular not plural, occuring at the same time for all men wicked and just often also being associated to Christ’s day of return, which also conflicts the premill interpretation of multiple future resurrections (plural) of various groups at various times (OT saints, OT wicked, NT saints, NT wicked, Trib saints, Trib Wicked, Mill saints, Mill wicked, unbelieving OT Jews, unbelieving NT Jews, beliving Holy-Ghostless trib super evangelist Jews, Mill animal sacrificing Jews, Mill sand-of-the-sea rebellion Jews, etc….it gets very complicated and wishy-washy in trying to determine and pin down when and which and whose resurrection is involved in the multiple-resurrections of multiple-groups in the premill systems.

All relevant passages speak of two resurrections, one for the saved and one for the unsaved. Only one passage says how much time is inbetween the two, Rev 20.


I prefer the more clear scriptures that tell me when Christ returns on the last day at the last hour, He will call all of the dead out of the graves, some to everlasting life, some to everlasting contempt, and none missed.

Clarity is only found using ALL relevant scriptures. Leaving out what Rev says is clear error and will lead to the false interpretation that all rise on the same day, which isn't true.

Revelation 20 speaks of two groups of the dead that resurrect/live again.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The first resurrection is the resurrection of this first group of the dead because they resurrect first. The rest of the dead have to wait for their resurrection:

"the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" (Rev 20:5)

This is the last resurrection of those who are dead. One group resurrected and "the rest" or the remaining ones did not resurrect when the others did.

This proves they partake of the second resurrection also known as the last resurrection because no one is still physically dead after they "live again". This also proves without a doubt that there are two separate days of resurrection separated by a thousand years and how long that actually is doesn't matter.

Part of the dead resurrect and then "the rest of the dead" will resurrect after a period of time. That's the dead resurrecting in two parts separated by a period of time.


The first group resurrects before the thousand years begins and the second/last group resurrects after the end of the thousand years.



Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

First group resurrection: "to everlasting life"
Second group resurrection: "to shame and everlasting contempt"

More corroboration:

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

First group resurrection: "resurrection of life"
Second group resurrection: "the resurrection of damnation"


Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

First group resurrection: "the just"
Second group resurrection: the "unjust"

Take note that in every passage where the resurrection of the saved and unsaved are mentioned that the saved or just is always mentioned first. That's important because it is they that resurrect first! Scripture never deviates in this order. Revelation, John, Daniel and Acts all say the saved first, then the unsaved in that exact order.




What we learn from these verses is that there are two resurrections. One resurrection is to life and the other resurrection is to damnation and contempt. Two resurrections! Never is there a single resurrection of both righteous and unrighteous at the same time.



We also see here that the saved/righteous are resurrected first, and at some time later the unsaved are resurrected and judged.

What these verses do not tell us is how much time is inbetween the two. For that we have to go to Revelation 20 where Christ tells John there is a thousand years inbetween. "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished". There we have the dead separated into two groups. One who are saved and will be resurrected and judged first, like Dan 12:2 and Joh 5:29 show, and the other group that has to wait until the thousand years are finished before they are resurrected and judged.





This is Premill through and through.

Amill errs on the first two passages because it ignores the information in Revelation 20 about the time inbetween and wrongly interprets that the saved and unsaved are resurrected and judged at the same time on the same day which simply isn't the case. This is why one needs to involve all passages that deal with the resurrections and judgments rather than focusing on some and not others, namely information found in Revelation. During the canonization process it was an Amill that did not want Revelation to be canonized. Revelation supports the Premill type of view so it's no surprise there was an effort to deny it's canonization.

The earliest identified Amillennialist is a presbyter in Rome in the third century, named Gaius, who as a Catholic opposed the canonization of the book of Revelation. After that, the Alexandrian school gave rise to several Amillennialists in the mid-third century, with its emphasis on allegorical and spiritual hermeneutics. Amillennialism is a Catholic invention! Amillennialism did not exist before the 3rd century. All the earlier church fathers were Chilastics which was Premillinialism before that term was created.


Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,



There will come a time/hour that all baseball teams will play against another team but that doesn't mean all on the same day. A time will come for all the dead to be raised. First, the dead in Christ rise, then after a thousand years "the rest of the dead" will rise. That's what we find when looking at all of the related passages. Leaving the most important passage out of this is clear error.

Another analogy:

"For the hour is coming, in which all who start and complete highschool shall graduate."

No one would argue that every single person who completes highschool will all graduate the same hour, or same day, or even the same year. Obviously, freshmen don't graduate when seniors do.



To understand this even more fully the word "hour" must be understood:

"hour" can be any amount of time since it can be literal or figurative:

G5610
??´?a
ho¯ra
ho'-rah
Apparently a primary word; an “hour” (literally or figuratively): - day, hour, instant, season, X short, [even-] tide, (high) time.
Total KJV occurrences: 108

It's been translated as hour, day and even season.

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

So, in this unknown amount of time there will be two resurrections. First (called the first resurrection) the dead in Christ will be resurrected. Then much later in this same "hora", at it's end, will the second and last resurrection take place and that's "the rest of the dead" who did not rise with the first group.
 

jeffweeder

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More corroboration:

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
First group resurrection: "resurrection of life"
Second group resurrection: "the resurrection of damnation"

No corroboration at all.

Lets quote Jn 5 with its context...,

27 And He has given Him authority to execute judgment, because He is a Son of Man [sinless humanity, qualifying Him to sit in judgment over mankind]. 28 Do not be surprised at this; for a time is coming when all those who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and they will come out—those who did good things [will come out] to a resurrection of [new] life, but those who did evil things [will come out] to a resurrection of judgment [that is, to be sentenced].

All in the tomb whether good or bad hear his voice and come out.

He utters his voice once not twice when the time comes for Gods righteous judgment.

More corroboration...,

2Thess 1
5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him]. 9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day [that is, glorified through the changed lives of those who have accepted Him as Savior and have been set apart for His purpose], and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed and trusted [and confirmed in your lives].
 

ewq1938

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No corroboration at all.

Lets quote Jn 5 with its context...,

27 And He has given Him authority to execute judgment, because He is a Son of Man [sinless humanity, qualifying Him to sit in judgment over mankind]. 28 Do not be surprised at this; for a time is coming when all those who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and they will come out—those who did good things [will come out] to a resurrection of [new] life, but those who did evil things [will come out] to a resurrection of judgment [that is, to be sentenced].

All in the tomb whether good or bad hear his voice and come out.

But not at the same time. The saved rise first, then later the unsaved shall. Only Rev 20 tells us how much time is inbetween. Ignoring Rev 20 is the downfall of Amill.




2Thess 1
5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him]. 9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day [that is, glorified through the changed lives of those who have accepted Him as Savior and have been set apart for His purpose], and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed and trusted [and confirmed in your lives].


That bad translation obscures the fact that the punishment of everlasting destruction is written in the future tense so it does not happen at the same timeframe of the second coming vengeance of the previous verse:


2Th 1:5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.


2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Amillennialism teaches the everlasting destruction in verse 9 happens the same time as the taking vengeance does but that isn't correct.

In verse 8 the verb didomi/TAKING is in the present tense proving the taking vengeance is happening at the second coming but in verse 9 the verb tino/PUNISHED is in the future tense proving that the punishment of everlasting destruction does NOT take place at the second coming. That comes after the second coming and Revelation 20 tells us over a thousand years passes before it happens.
 

jeffweeder

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But not at the same time. The saved rise first, then later the unsaved shall. Only Rev 20 tells us how much time is inbetween. Ignoring Rev 20 is the downfall of Amill.

The context of the verse shows it is the same time.
Here is another translation...,

28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

Same hour.

I am not ignoring Rev 20 or Jn 5 as they have a lot in common. That is something you ignore.



[ EWQ ]That bad translation obscures the fact that the punishment of everlasting destruction is written in the future tense so it does not happen at the same timeframe of the second coming vengeance of the previous verse:


2Th 1:5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.]

Not at all.
v10 says, when he SHALL come to be glorified in his saints.
We are Glorified on the same day he shall punish with everlasting destruction. That day being his coming.


5 This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering— 6 since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, 10 when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.
 

ewq1938

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The context of the verse shows it is the same time.
Here is another translation...,

28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

Same hour.

No, AN hour which is not the same time.



I am not ignoring Rev 20 or Jn 5 as they have a lot in common. That is something you ignore.

Nope. You are still ignoring that Rev 20 separately the first and second resurrection by a thousand years. "the rest of the dead lived not until" proves this and since scripture does not contradict, we know passages like you bring up are NOT saying all rise at the same time, otherwise Rev would be wrong.




v10 says, when he SHALL come to be glorified in his saints.
We are Glorified on the same day he shall punish with everlasting destruction. That day being his coming.

According to the scripture, the second coming is not at the same time the everlasting punishment happens. That comes down to education in basic Greek grammar. If it was the same day the verb tense would not be FUTURE.
 

jeffweeder

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According to the scripture, the second coming is not at the same time the everlasting punishment happens.

Many scriptures disagree with you.

Read 2Thess 1 again slowly and carefully.


5 This is positive proof of the just and right judgment of God to the end that you may be deemed deserving of His kingdom [a plain token of His fair verdict which designs that you should be made and counted worthy of the kingdom of God], for the sake of which you are also suffering.

6 [It is a fair decision] since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with distress and affliction those who distress and afflict you,

7 And to [recompense] you who are so distressed and afflicted [by granting you] relief and rest along with us [your fellow sufferers] when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire,


8 To deal out retribution (chastisement and vengeance) upon those who do not know or perceive or become acquainted with God, and [upon those] who ignore and refuse to obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 Such people will pay the penalty and suffer the punishment of everlasting ruin (destruction and perdition) and eternal exclusion and banishment from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

10 When He comes to be glorified in His saints
[on that day He will be made more glorious in His consecrated people], and [He will] be marveled at and admired [in His glory reflected] in all who have believed [who have adhered to, trusted in, and relied on Him], because our witnessing among you was confidently accepted and believed [and confirmed in your lives].


Matt 25
31 When the Son of Man comes in His glory (His majesty and splendor), and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.

32 All nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them [the people] from one another as a shepherd separates his sheep from the goats;

33 And He will cause the sheep to stand at His right hand, but the goats at His left.


34 Then the King will say to those at His right hand, Come, you blessed of My Father [you favored of God and appointed to eternal salvation], inherit (receive as your own) the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.



41 Then He will say to those at His left hand, Begone from Me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels!


Jude
14 It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, 15 to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”



Matt 16
Jesus said...,
27 For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels and will then repay every man according to his deeds.



Rom 2

5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will repay each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life; 8 but to those who are self-serving and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give wrath and indignation.


Acts 17
30 Such [former] ages of ignorance God, it is true, ignored and allowed to pass unnoticed; but now He charges all people everywhere to repent (to change their minds for the better and heartily to amend their ways, with abhorrence of their past sins),

31 Because He has fixed a day when He will judge the world righteously (justly) by a Man Whom He has destined and appointed for that task, and He has made this credible and given conviction and assurance and evidence to everyone by raising Him from the dead.
 

ewq1938

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Many scriptures disagree with you.

Read 2Thess 1 again slowly and carefully.

You don't even acknowledge the Greek verb future tense. YOU need to be reading it carefully not me. Scripture says the second coming is separate from the everlasting punishment, and that is backed up by what Rev 20 says.

2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Amillennialism teaches the everlasting destruction in verse 9 happens the same time as the taking vengeance does but that isn't correct.

In verse 8 the verb didomi/TAKING is in the present tense proving the taking vengeance is happening at the second coming but in verse 9 the verb tino/PUNISHED is in the future tense proving that the punishment of everlasting destruction does NOT take place at the second coming. That comes after the second coming and Revelation 20 tells us over a thousand years passes before it happens.
 

ewq1938

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Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Some people don't understand the difference between judging the church opposed to judging the world. We are not of the world and are not being judged when the world is judged. The world is the world of the unsaved and YES there is a single day when that judgment comes, LONG after the second coming and after the Millennium's end.
 

jeffweeder

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Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

We are not of the world and are not being judged when the world is judged. The world is the world of the unsaved and YES there is a single day when that judgment comes, LONG after the second coming and after the Millennium's end.

Think again.

Read 2Thess 1 again slowly and carefully.


5 This is positive proof of the just and right judgment of God to the end that you may be deemed deserving of His kingdom [a plain token of His fair verdict which designs that you should be made and counted worthy of the kingdom of God], for the sake of which you are also suffering.

6 [It is a fair decision] since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with distress and affliction those who distress and afflict you,

7 And to [recompense] you who are so distressed and afflicted [by granting you] relief and rest along with us [your fellow sufferers] when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire




Notice the bolded above. God repays them and God gives us relief when the Lord comes.



8 To deal out retribution (chastisement and vengeance) upon those who do not know or perceive or become acquainted with God, and [upon those] who ignore and refuse to obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 Such people will pay the penalty and suffer the punishment of everlasting ruin (destruction and perdition) and eternal exclusion and banishment from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

10 When He comes to be glorified in His saints
[on that day He will be made more glorious in His consecrated people], and [He will] be marveled at and admired [in His glory reflected] in all who have believed [who have adhered to, trusted in, and relied on Him], because our witnessing among you was confidently accepted and believed [and confirmed in your lives].


Notice again the bolded above.
Eternal ruin and our glorification happen on the same day, not 1000 years before. They are banished from the presence of his glorious coming.

I'm done now.
 

ewq1938

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Think again.


Same to you. Is the church the world or part of the world? No.

I know Amill is desperate for anything that seems to support it's doctrine but this is obviously not supportive. There is a day set aside for Christ to judge the world and that world is the unsaved.

Stop ignoring the verb tense God used. Future tense means it happens future from the other events not at the same time else a present tense verb would be used. This is basic grammar.
 

jeffweeder

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Same to you. Is the church the world or part of the world? No.

I know Amill is desperate for anything that seems to support it's doctrine but this is obviously not supportive. There is a day set aside for Christ to judge the world and that world is the unsaved.

Stop ignoring the verb tense God used. Future tense means it happens future from the other events not at the same time else a present tense verb would be used. This is basic grammar.


Lol. Have a look at all the English translations for those verses.

Was Jesus wrong in Matt 25?'

Matt 25
31 When the Son of Man comes in His glory (His majesty and splendor), and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.

32 All nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them [the people] from one another as a shepherd separates his sheep from the goats;

33 And He will cause the sheep to stand at His right hand, but the goats at His left.


34 Then the King will say to those at His right hand, Come, you blessed of My Father [you favored of God and appointed to eternal salvation], inherit (receive as your own) the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.


41 Then He will say to those at His left hand, Begone from Me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels!

Was Jude wrong?
Jude
14 It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, 15 to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”

16 These are inveterate murmurers (grumblers) who complain [of their lot in life], going after their own desires [controlled by their passions]; their talk is boastful and arrogant, [and they claim to] admire men’s persons and pay people flattering compliments to gain advantage.

17 But you must remember, beloved, the predictions which were made by the apostles (the special messengers) of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One).

18 They told you beforehand, In the last days (in the end time) there will be scoffers [who seek to gratify their own unholy desires], following after their own ungodly passions.

19 It is these who are [agitators] setting up distinctions and causing divisions—merely sensual [creatures, carnal, worldly-minded people], devoid of the [Holy] Spirit and destitute of any higher spiritual life.

20 But you, beloved, build yourselves up [founded] on your most holy faith [make progress, rise like an edifice higher and higher], praying in the Holy Spirit;

21 Guard and keep yourselves in the love of God; expect and patiently wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah)—[which will bring you] unto life eternal.


22 And refute [so as to] convict some who dispute with you, and on some have mercy who waver and doubt.

23 [Strive to] save others, snatching [them] out of [the] fire; on others take pity [but] with fear, loathing even the garment spotted by the flesh and polluted by their sensuality.

24 Now to Him Who is able to keep you without stumbling or slipping or falling, and to present [you] unblemished (blameless and faultless) before the presence of His glory in triumphant joy and exultation [with unspeakable, ecstatic delight]—

25 To the one only God, our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory (splendor), majesty, might and dominion, and power and authority, before all time and now and forever (unto all the ages of eternity). Amen (so be it).
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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Of course it is true. You allow a symbolic resurrection in Christ, but not a physical resurrection to a physical body.
Again, that is not true. I don't need you to tell me what I believe. I will tell you what I believe. I don't believe in a symbolic resurrection in Christ. I believe that we spiritually have part in His bodily resurrection when we go from being spiritually dead in sins to spiritually alive in Christ, as Paul wrote about in Ephesians 2:1-6 and as Jesus Himself talked about in John 5:24-25. I believe that people's physical bodies will be resurrected in the future on the day Christ returns, so don't tell me that I don't believe in a physical resurrection. Paul says the body we will have after it's changed will be spiritual, incorruptible, immortal, glorious and powerful (1 Cor 15:42-54). We don't know yet exactly what that will be like, but that is how he described it.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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I know Amill is desperate for anything that seems to support it's doctrine
That is a lie.

There is a day set aside for Christ to judge the world and that world is the unsaved.
Do you deny that the saved will stand before Him to be judged as well? That is what scripture teaches (Romans 14:10-12, 2 Cor 5:10, Matthew 25:31-46).
 

Timtofly

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Again, that is not true. I don't need you to tell me what I believe. I will tell you what I believe. I don't believe in a symbolic resurrection in Christ. I believe that we spiritually have part in His bodily resurrection when we go from being spiritually dead in sins to spiritually alive in Christ, as Paul wrote about in Ephesians 2:1-6 and as Jesus Himself talked about in John 5:24-25. I believe that people's physical bodies will be resurrected in the future on the day Christ returns, so don't tell me that I don't believe in a physical resurrection. Paul says the body we will have after it's changed will be spiritual, incorruptible, immortal, glorious and powerful (1 Cor 15:42-54). We don't know yet exactly what that will be like, but that is how he described it.
Paul was talking in part about those alive at the Second Coming. But the old body is not resurrected. It returned to dust. Paul in 2 Corinthians 5:1 points out there is already that permanent incorruptible physical body in Paradise. The soul is raised up from this dead body into that permanent one from God immediately.

You believe in a future change to Adam's body. But God's image is already there in Paradise.

Even the verse that states:

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

This verse is addressed to those alive, not to those already dead in the grave, whose body returned to dust.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Paul was talking in part about those alive at the Second Coming. But the old body is not resurrected. It returned to dust.
Clearly, the dead in Christ will be resurrected at His Second Coming, as passages like 1 Thess 4:14-17 and 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 indicate. So, what will be resurrected at that time if not "the old body"?

Paul in 2 Corinthians 5:1 points out there is already that permanent incorruptible physical body in Paradise. The soul is raised up from this dead body into that permanent one from God immediately.

You believe in a future change to Adam's body. But God's image is already there in Paradise.
I don't know what you're talking about. In 1 Cor 15:51-54 Paul clearly indicates that we will all be changed at the same time, which is when the last trumpet sounds. So, what do you think will happen when the last trumpet sounds and we are all changed at that time?
 

Timtofly

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Clearly, the dead in Christ will be resurrected at His Second Coming, as passages like 1 Thess 4:14-17 and 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 indicate. So, what will be resurrected at that time if not "the old body"?

I don't know what you're talking about. In 1 Cor 15:51-54 Paul clearly indicates that we will all be changed at the same time, which is when the last trumpet sounds. So, what do you think will happen when the last trumpet sounds and we are all changed at that time?
You are currently the dead in Christ. You are still in Adam's dead corruptible flesh.
 

ewq1938

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Was Jesus wrong in Matt 25?'


No and he wasn't wrong in Rev 20 either. The saved are not resurrected or judged at the same time the unsaved are. Any teaching that says otherwise is not a scriptural teaching (or interpretation).
 

Jay Ross

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Hello,

My sense from Ezekiel is that there will be two judgements. The first will be the separation of one flock from another, i.e., those who acknowledge God and those that do not. The second will be the separation of the sheep from the goats in the flock that acknowledge God in the first separation of the flocks. The second separation is to separate the righteous from the unrighteous, which Jesus spoke about in Matthew 25.

Shalom.
 

David Boyer

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No and he wasn't wrong in Rev 20 either. The saved are not resurrected or judged at the same time the unsaved are. Any teaching that says otherwise is not a scriptural teaching (or interpretation).

But Rev 20:12-13 describe the saved and unsaved are resurrected at the same time.
Rev 20:13b "and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them"

Seeing as death is the domain of the dead believer (bosom of Abraham) and hell is the domain of the damned, Rev 20:13 seems to say that those two locations give up their occupants simultaneously.