The theological fallacy of a spiritual 'resurrection'

[ScottA]

The point is: most here deny a physical resurrection at all. They think physical means carnal. Obviously the first physical resurrection removes Adam's dead corruptible flesh, for a permanent incorruptible physical body made by God. 2 Corinthians 5:1.

That is very much true.

But what I see mostly, are people believing that it is like a washing away of what they themselves perceive as evil (rather than what God does); and yet that the world then goes on with the glow of Christ on the horizon, no more tears and death, etc. in an imagined form of endless days. Which all sounds great--even heavenly, except that that is still a far cry from what is to be, and much of what they hang onto is to be dissolved--even no more sea. Most simply have adopted a belief at the limit of what they have imagined and determined a doctrine to match, leaving out much of what is also written.

Which I consider comes from the flesh and the beggarly elements dictating much of what is believed. I mean, most fight tooth and nail, kicking and screaming with a death grip on the flesh and an insistence on keeping it much as it is.

 

[jeffweeder]

No, they can't, because resurrection implies the bodily resurrection from death, and this is the case with each and every New Testament verse talking about resurrection, without exception.

What do you make of this verse?

Jn 5
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life

25 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

Does a physical death have to take place in order for us to pass from death to life and escape the judgment.?


[Quote FOTG] Notice the silence regarding the first four posts (the OP) of this topic. They seem to know they cannot produce anything to refute any of it. It's almost as though the terror they feel at the prospect of how that might cause them to interpret the resurrection mentioned in Revelation Chapter 20 has paralyzed them, and made them completely incapable of even trying to refute any of the facts or scriptures listed in the first four posts of this thread.]



John is not contradicting himself in Rev 20.
Through the Lord's own resurrection, we escape the judgment.


Rev 20
6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Can you see that we already have this assurance without being raised physically?
Do we need a physical resurrection in order to be priests and to overcome?

Rev 1
To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood— 6 and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father—to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

Again, John cannot contradict himself in Jn 5 and Rev 20 regarding our not coming into the judgment.

 

[Timtofly]

That is very much true.

But what I see mostly, are people believing that it is like a washing away of what they themselves perceive as evil (rather than what God does); and yet that the world then goes on with the glow of Christ on the horizon, no more tears and death, etc. in an imagined form of endless days. Which all sounds great--even heavenly, except that that is still a far cry from what is to be, and much of what they hang onto is to be dissolved--even no more sea. Most simply have adopted a belief at the limit of what they have imagined and determined a doctrine to match, leaving out much of what is also written.

Which I consider comes from the flesh and the beggarly elements dictating much of what is believed. I mean, most fight tooth and nail, kicking and screaming with a death grip on the flesh and an insistence on keeping it much as it is.

Well all those who like the open water, and beaches may have issues adjusting to thinking otherwise.

It is interesting, because no more oceans could mean a totally different weather pattern than we are used to.

 

[Timtofly]

Does a physical death have to take place in order for us to pass from death to life and escape the judgment.?

Of course physical death frees us from Adam's bondage of the curse. Did you get a new body when you claimed the second birth from above?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No one argues there was not a first physical resurrection. No one argues that only in Christ under the Atonement Covenant, can one even experience the first resurrection.

The point is: most here deny a physical resurrection at all.

That is not true. Not only is that not true of most here, but I don't believe it's true of ANYONE here. Please try to stick to stating things that are actually true from now on. Thanks for your cooperation.

 

[ScottA]

Well all those who like the open water, and beaches may have issues adjusting to thinking otherwise.

It is interesting, because no more oceans could mean a totally different weather pattern than we are used to.

Yeah, and "no shadow of turning" (time) either. We shall see!

 

[ewq1938]

I haven’t met anyone yet, denying the future bodily resurrection of mankind that occurs on the last hour of the last day.

The resurrection of the saved happens the last day before the Millennium starts. Rev 20 affirms this by assuring us that the rest of the dead don't live again until after the Millennium. Those are the unsaved, unworthy to resurrect with those of the first resurrection.

 

[Timtofly]

That is not true. Not only is that not true of most here, but I don't believe it's true of ANYONE here. Please try to stick to stating things that are actually true from now on. Thanks for your cooperation.

Of course it is true. You allow a symbolic resurrection in Christ, but not a physical resurrection to a physical body. Those in Abraham's bosom already have a permanent incorruptible physical body in Paradise, and have had those physical bodies for 1992 years.

Your physical resurrection is into a spiritually defined state you call immortals. Spirit beings. If you accept a physical resurrection, then those in Revelation 20:4 have physical bodies on the earth for 1,000 years. You all call that a fairy tale.

Yes, some agree to a future resurrection, but refute the physical aspect of such a resurrection.

If it were not true, you would have stated in detail what a first resurrection is, but you leave out a physical aspect. You dismiss those beheaded into symbolic meaningless avoidance. The sheep and wheat are not resurrected, as they are changed without physically dying.

Now can you explain the soul leaving one body behind for another physical body? Or do you remove the physical aspect altogether? Many here argue over flesh and bone, blood or no blood. Surely they do not get it either. Many just say spirit beings.

Name one other poster that thinks humans will still have physical bodies but without corruption. And no such thing as immortals.

"living forever; never dying or decaying.
"our mortal bodies are inhabited by immortal souls"

No body, just a soul?

"an immortal being, especially a god of ancient Greece or Rome."

Really? Greek mythology?

You point out symbolism meaning living forever, never dying, but what is actually living forever, never dying?

If you say a physical body, you would not be pointing out my point is false. You would agree it was a physical body, and be done with it.

 

[DavidTaylor]

The resurrection of the saved happens the last day before the Millennium starts. Rev 20 affirms this by assuring us that the rest of the dead don't live again until after the Millennium. Those are the unsaved, unworthy to resurrect with those of the first resurrection.

Yes, this is the Premill interpretation of Rev 20.
It is one way to interpret that passage.
My problem with interpretting it this way, is 1) it creates conflict and confusion with the dozens of clear passages in the gospels and NT epistles that teach the 2nd coming is the climax of human mortal history and the day the faithful are rewarded and the wicked are judged and cast out; and 2) every single mention of group resurrection in the bible refer to it as ‘the resurrection’ singular not plural, occuring at the same time for all men wicked and just often also being associated to Christ’s day of return, which also conflicts the premill interpretation of multiple future resurrections (plural) of various groups at various times (OT saints, OT wicked, NT saints, NT wicked, Trib saints, Trib Wicked, Mill saints, Mill wicked, unbelieving OT Jews, unbelieving NT Jews, beliving Holy-Ghostless trib super evangelist Jews, Mill animal sacrificing Jews, Mill sand-of-the-sea rebellion Jews, etc….it gets very complicated and wishy-washy in trying to determine and pin down when and which and whose resurrection is involved in the multiple-resurrections of multiple-groups in the premill systems.

I prefer the more clear scriptures that tell me when Christ returns on the last day at the last hour, He will call all of the dead out of the graves, some to everlasting life, some to everlasting contempt, and none missed.

 

[Behold]

Of course physical death frees us from Adam's bondage of the curse. Did you get a new body when you claimed the second birth from above?

Actually being born again frees the believer's SPIRIT from the "curse of the Law".

 

[Timtofly]

Actually being born again frees the believer's SPIRIT from the "curse of the Law".

Do you experience a curse by being obedient?

 

[ScottA]

Yes, this is the Premill interpretation of Rev 20.
It is one way to interpret that passage.
My problem with interpretting it this way, is 1) it creates conflict and confusion with the dozens of clear passages in the gospels and NT epistles that teach the 2nd coming is the climax of human mortal history and the day the faithful are rewarded and the wicked are judged and cast out; and 2) every single mention of group resurrection in the bible refer to it as ‘the resurrection’ singular not plural, occuring at the same time for all men wicked and just often also being associated to Christ’s day of return, which also conflicts the premill interpretation of multiple future resurrections (plural) of various groups at various times (OT saints, OT wicked, NT saints, NT wicked, Trib saints, Trib Wicked, Mill saints, Mill wicked, unbelieving OT Jews, unbelieving NT Jews, beliving Holy-Ghostless trib super evangelist Jews, Mill animal sacrificing Jews, Mill sand-of-the-sea rebellion Jews, etc….it gets very complicated and wishy-washy in trying to determine and pin down when and which and whose resurrection is involved in the multiple-resurrections of multiple-groups in the premill systems.

I prefer the more clear scriptures that tell me when Christ returns on the last day at the last hour, He will call all of the dead out of the graves, some to everlasting life, some to everlasting contempt, and none missed.

The 'isms are complicated indeed!

I do not recognize any of the 'isms, as they each refer to the times of this world as opposed to the day of the Lord, whom is not of this world.

If you are willing...I will explain:

The so-called "climax of human history" is again, a perception based on the times of this world. The better term therefore, is: apex--the apex of human history...which is not historically chronological, except to those living in the world, and therein lies the error of worldly-time interpretations. These many events rather all center on Christ, even occurring in His Day and time, just as it is written:

"In those days and at that time I will cause to grow up to David a Branch of righteousness; He shall execute judgment and righteousness in the earth. In those days Judah will be saved, and Jerusalem will dwell safely. And this is the name by which she will be called: THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS." Jeremiah 33:15-16
​

Which is to say that these are the things that He did "execute." Thus, all things before and after that come to men and have come, come as Paul explained as "but each one in his own order", that is: in the world, by way of revelation over time--but by God, not actually a chronology of worldly events, but rather in Christ all things eternal. All of which makes the last day and last hour, "that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." Again, as Paul explained, "but each one in his own order." Which of course is the chronological order of worldly events by that description, but the Day of the Lord and His coming as by God...making theses events which we tend to see in chronological order, also a mass event with God.

The confusion then, comes from not "rightly dividing the word of truth" between what is written of the chronological events of this world from the eternal events of God set into that perceived chronology.

Thus, just as the Lamb "was" slain before the foundation of the world, and we "were" crucified with Christ--all events did occur with God before the world was, and also "but each one in his own order." All of which requires that we "not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of our mind"...which is to enter into the eternity of God.​

 

[WPM]

The 'isms are complicated indeed!

I do not recognize any of the 'isms, as they each refer to the times of this world as opposed to the day of the Lord, whom is not of this world.

If you are willing...I will explain:

The so-called "climax of human history" is again, a perception based on the times of this world. The better term therefore, is: apex--the apex of human history...which is not historically chronological, except to those living in the world, and therein lies the error of worldly-time interpretations. These many events rather all center on Christ, even occurring in His Day and time, just as it is written:

"In those days and at that time I will cause to grow up to David a Branch of righteousness; He shall execute judgment and righteousness in the earth. In those days Judah will be saved, and Jerusalem will dwell safely. And this is the name by which she will be called: THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS." Jeremiah 33:15-16
​

Which is to say that these are the things that He did "execute." Thus, all things before and after that come to men and have come, come as Paul explained as "but each one in his own order", that is: in the world, by way of revelation over time--but by God, not actually a chronology of worldly events, but rather in Christ all things eternal. All of which makes the last day and last hour, "that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." Again, as Paul explained, "but each one in his own order." Which of course is the chronological order of worldly events by that description, but the Day of the Lord and His coming as by God...making theses events which we tend to see in chronological order, also a mass event with God.

The confusion then, comes from not "rightly dividing the word of truth" between what is written of the chronological events of this world from the eternal events of God set into that perceived chronology.

Thus, just as the Lamb "was" slain before the foundation, and we "were" crucified with Christ--all events did occur with God before the world was, and also "but each one in his own order." All of which requires that we "not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of our mind"...which is to enter into the eternity of God.​

But the coming of Christ ushers in the end of time and therefore the climax of human history.

 

[ScottA]

But the coming of Christ ushers in the end of time and therefore the climax of human history.

Yes, as the world would consider its own history, that much is true.

However in the kingdom of God and the record of eternal events written--where there is "no shadow of turning" (no time), no such chronology exists. But that is rather the language that inspires what the world would find absurd and crazy, that says that the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world and we were crucified with Christ. We have a choice then, to think as the world thinks, or as God thinks, and thereby believe.

 

[WPM]

Yes, as the world would consider its own history, that much is true.

However in the kingdom of God and the record of eternal events written--where there is "no shadow of turning" (no time), no such chronology exists. But that is rather the language that inspires what the world would find absurd and crazy, that says that the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world and we were crucified with Christ. We have a choice then, to think as the world thinks, or as God thinks, and thereby believe.

Granted, He works and abides in eternity, but we abide in time and space. God's Word is addressed to people living on this earth that are controlled by time, which He gave us. If God didn't speak about the end of time, the end of this age and of the end of this world in His Word then you would have a good argument. But He does, so it is Ok for us to do so as well.

 

[ScottA]

But the coming of Christ ushers in the end of time and therefore the climax of human history.

I should have said more.

By name, it is Christ who is "the End." And He is also "the Beginning." Meaning that all things exist within the bounds of Christ, rather than what the world would say based on its assessment of what it understands at its lower mechanical and scientific level--which is all little more than educated conjecture, seemingly proved by more of the same as events unfold before them by revelations from God.

So...yes, we can witness what the world witnesses in the way the world witnesses...or we can believe according to the nature of our Father, which is eternal. Of course, meanwhile we too live day to day, year in and year out...which is our lot appointed by God for a time of coming to know Him, rather than the world. Such is life to have first been born of water and then of the spirit of God...and we should embrace it, not disregarding either, but giving greater weight and consideration to Him who created it all.

 

[WPM]

I should have said more.

By name, it is Christ who is "the End." And He is also "the Beginning." Meaning that all things exist within the bounds of Christ, rather than what the world would say based on its assessment of what it understands at its lower mechanical and scientific level--which is all little more than educated conjecture, seemingly proved by more of the same as events unfold before them by revelations from God.

So...yes, we can witness what the world witnesses in the way the world witnesses...or we can believe according to the nature of our Father, which is eternal. Of course, meanwhile we too live day to day, year in and year out...which is our lot appointed by God for a time of coming to know Him, rather than the world. Such is life to have first been born of water and then of the spirit of God...and we should embrace it, not disregarding either, but giving greater weight and consideration to Him who created it all.

You are not addressing my point. God's Word is addressed to people living on this earth that are controlled by time, which He gave us. If God didn't speak about the end of time, the end of this age and of the end of this world in His Word then you would have a good argument. But He does, so it is Ok for us to do so as well.

There is a day at the end of time when the clock and calendars will become obsolete.

 

[ScottA]

Granted, He works and abides in eternity, but we abide in time and space. God's Word is addressed to people living on this earth that are controlled by time, which He gave us. If God didn't speak about the end of time, the end of this age and of the end of this world in His Word then you would have a good argument. But He does, so it is Ok for us to do so as well.

God's word is rather a mix of both the times of this world and of His eternal kingdom, and therefore must be "rightly divided." Again, God has appointed both, and therefore we are indeed to live to both, and yet give greater credence to that which is greater.

 

[WPM]

God's word is rather a mix of both the times of this world and of His eternal kingdom, and therefore must be "rightly divided." Again, God has appointed both, and therefore we are indeed to live to both, and yet give greater credence to that which is greater.

I accept this.

 

[ScottA]

I accept this.

Great!

Now, since we got off track a little (sorry for the post tag shuffle )...the main point that I was making, is that the chronology of the world, and the non-chronology of eternal events--for lack of a better term, come in "real time." Meaning, there is no discrepancy between the past tense language used in the scriptures...like "before" the foundation of the world, or we "were" crucified with Christ. But rather that the language is a form of translation of what is otherwise eternal seemingly placed within a timeline. There is much more that can be said of this phenomena, but I shouldn't confuse matters.

The confusion that is most important to discuss, is that of misunderstanding that things that would seem to be yet future (as the world would see it), are only future for those who have yet to witness them. Perhaps I've said enough.