The theological fallacy of a spiritual 'resurrection'

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Earburner

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It's a fact the rule is Earthly. What the Pharisees and Amillennialism gets wrong is when it takes place. It's not now like the Pharisees expected. Christ said his kingdom is not from here.
Jesus Himself is the KoG to usward. That did not begin until after His death and resurrection, being manifested on the day of Pentecost, whereby we the body of Christ, had it's initial start. Since then, for the salvation of others, we have been reigning with Him.
 

ewq1938

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Jesus Himself is the KoG to usward. That did not begin until after His death and resurrection, being manifested on the day of Pentecost, whereby we the body of Christ, had it's initial start. Since then, for the salvation of others, we have been reigning with Him.


Not reigning with him with a rod of iron over the nations until after he returns. Read it for yourself:

Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

What does "til I come" mean?

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

After he "comes", overcomers get power over the nations.

Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

This is when the rod of iron rule begins. After the second coming not now!

Which is more important, what scripture says or what a doctrine says?

Let me guess, some unrelated scripture will be posted to dodge what this says. At least the scripture I use directly mentions power over the nations and the rod of iron and all this happening after the second coming. See why Premillennialists believe as they do? It's scriptural.
 

Timtofly

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It's not 'me'... you are disagreeing with, it is Apostle Paul you are disagreeing with.

You cannot say there is NO "spiritual body" by trying to USE the Genesis 2:7 verse being the ONLY Scripture of how God created man's makeup. And doing THAT is what is known as a Jewish fable.
Is a light a body? Is a piece of meat a body. Adam was in the full image of God, a soul, a body, and a spirit around that body. Adam did not have two bodies, one physical and one spiritual. Get a grip and stop tossing around Jewish fables yourself.
 

Timtofly

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Revelation 11:1-4, 13:1-8.

The 42 months is future and its literal, as the 1260 days (3.5 years) was literal for John the Baptist and Jesus' combined ministry- Revelation 11:3-4.
So you are saying Jesus and John the Baptist will be the two witnesses? I thought you did not accept Jesus being on the earth at this time?

Do you not see these 42 months happening prior to Revelation 19? Or do you think it is 42 months after Revelation 19?
 

Davy

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Is a light a body? Is a piece of meat a body. Adam was in the full image of God, a soul, a body, and a spirit around that body. Adam did not have two bodies, one physical and one spiritual. Get a grip and stop tossing around Jewish fables yourself.

Is watermelon good to eat in the summer?
 

Spiritual Israelite

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It's a fact the rule is Earthly. What the Pharisees and Amillennialism gets wrong is when it takes place. It's not now like the Pharisees expected. Christ said his kingdom is not from here.
It's a fact that scripture teaches that Christ reigns now.

Matthew 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Colossians 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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Because we aren't yet:

Jesus is NOT reigning over His enemies now - according to Scripture

To reign means to rule over people and have complete control.
Jesus rules over everyone now and does have complete control.

You're not accepting what Jesus Himself said.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

If you can't reign unless you dictate what everyone does then we couldn't even say that God the Father has reigned from the beginning of time, but He has. The idea that someone can't reign unless everyone is obeying them 100% of the time is completely flawed. Think of earthly kings in earthly kingdoms over the years. Clearly, not everyone in their kingdoms always did what they wanted all the time. Not even close. So, does that mean they were not kings and were not reigning? Of course not.
 
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Davy

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It's a fact that scripture teaches that Christ reigns now.

You too might as well be speaking of watermelons, because it is fallacy to pull out a couple of verses and apply whatever meaning you want to it.

All one need do is read Christ's Book of Revelation about the events at the END of this world (which we are in today), that lead up to His FUTURE return and reign. Those who can't read His warning about about a ONE-WORLD BEAST KINGDOM OVER ALL NATIONS AND PEOPLES prior to His future return, just don't have a clue, and even show they don't care... to have a clue.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Heb_2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

This was written long after the cross and even at that time not all things were put under Him. That doesn't happen until the second coming.
Why did you say nothing about the text that precedes the text you bolded? That text indicates that, at that time, all things had been put under His feet. It very clearly says "he left nothing that is not put under him". So, are you interpreting the part you bolded with that in mind? It doesn't appear so. Instead, it seems that you are completely ignoring the rest of the verse. The rest of the verse lines up with what Paul wrote here, which was also written after the cross:

Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

This verse very clearly says that all things had been put under Christ's feet as of the time that was written. Do you accept that? It couldn't be more clear. So, do Ephesians 1:22 and the part you bolded in Hebrews 2:8 contradict each other or do they have different contexts? We obviously all know that scripture never contradicts itself, so they must have different contexts. The context of Ephesians 1:22 is that Jesus currently has authority over literally all things that currently exist. The verses just prior to that one confirm that. And that is exactly what Hebrews 2:8 says as well before the part you bolded.

So, what does the text you bolded in Hebrews 2:8 mean then? It means that while all things existing now are currently under His feet, as Paul indicated in Ephesians 1:22, there are still things (people, kingdoms) in the future that are not yet under His feet because they don't exist yet. So, Hebrews 2:8 is talking about a future time when all the things that will ever exist have existed, then it can be said that all things that will ever be will have been put under Christ's feet.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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You too might as well be speaking of watermelons, because it is fallacy to pull out a couple of verses and apply whatever meaning you want to it.
LOL. You are truly hilarious. Your arrogance is off the charts. You make claims without backing them up. So, tell me what Jesus meant when He said all power/authority in heaven and earth was given to Him (Matt 28:18)? Tell me what Paul meant when he wrote that the Father put Jesus in a position "Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named" and "put all things under His feet" (Eph 1:22). Tell me what John meant when He wrote that Jesus is currently the prince/ruler of the kings of the earth (Revelation 1:5-6). You can't convince me of anything with your useless rhetoric. Use scripture or stop talking.

All one need do is read Christ's Book of Revelation about the events at the END of this world (which we are in today), that lead up to His FUTURE return and reign. Those who can't read His warning about about a ONE-WORLD BEAST KINGDOM OVER ALL NATIONS AND PEOPLES prior to His future return, just don't have a clue, and even show they don't care... to have a clue.
You clearly don't have a clue on how to make a coherent argument. You're all talk. I used scripture to back up my view. You use nothing but your own words.
 

bbyrd009

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Heb_2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.


This was written long after the cross and even at that time not all things were put under Him. That doesn't happen until the second coming
wadr i think what that is sayingis that Christ reigns right now, even if we dont see it
 

Timtofly

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It's a fact that scripture teaches
Then what happens at the 7th Trumpet? Did that happen soon after the Cross?

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Then what happens at the 7th Trumpet? Did that happen soon after the Cross?

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."
If you read that carefully, you should see that "our Lord" refers to God the Father. So, that is talking about when Jesus delivers the kingdom to the Father at His second coming, as Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15:22-24.
 

ewq1938

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It's a fact that scripture teaches that Christ reigns now.


He is not ruling over the nations of the Earth with a rod of iron. That only happens when he returns. Satan rules the nations currently.
 

ewq1938

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Jesus rules over everyone now and does have complete control.

You're not accepting what Jesus Himself said.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.


That doesn't equal him using that power which clearly he did not since instead of defeating all enemies, his enemies killed him. His return is when he will bring his wrath and rule for real.
 

ewq1938

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Why did you say nothing about the text that precedes the text you bolded?

Because the bolded part is talking about what is NOW, and not all things are under him. Nothing had changed since that was written.
 

Truth7t7

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He is not ruling over the nations of the Earth with a rod of iron. That only happens when he returns. Satan rules the nations currently.
Jesus doesn't rule in the future as a King with a rod of iron, as a scepter sitting on a throne as you suggest

The rod of iron is a tool of destruction, as a Potter destroys his clay vessels with a rod of iron

Revelation 2:27KJV
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Revelation 19:15KJV
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
 

ewq1938

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Jesus doesn't rule in the future as a King with a rod of iron

Yes he does.

Revelation 2 is clear the rod of iron reign doesn't start until Christ returns.

Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

That is the second coming. Everything we read of next comes after the second coming:

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

After "the end" comes, there is given power over the nations to those that are overcomers which naturally includes those who "are alive and remain" at the second coming. They will be given power over the nations after Christ has returned not before it.





The rod of iron is a tool of destruction, as a Potter destroys his clay vessels with a rod of iron

Revelation 2:27KJV
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.


It destroys the governments etc but not individuals:

RULE

G4165
poimaino
poy-mah'ee-no
From G4166; to tend as a shepherd (or figuratively superviser): - feed (cattle), rule.
Total KJV occurrences: 11

G4165
poimaino
Thayer Definition:
1) to feed, to tend a flock, keep sheep
1a) to rule, govern
1a1) of rulers
1a2) to furnish pasture for food
1a3) to nourish
1a4) to cherish one’s body, to serve the body
1a5) to supply the requisites for the soul’s need
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G4166
Citing in TDNT: 6:485, 901

There is nothing violent about poimaino.


Barnes:


As the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers - The ironic here is that of the vessel of a potter - a fragile vessel of clay - struck with a rod of iron and broken into fragments. That is, as applied to the nations, there would be no power to oppose His rule; the enemies of his government would be destroyed. Instead of remaining firm and compacted together, they would be broken like the clay vessel of a potter when struck with a rod of iron.

The notion of breaking a nation or kingdom up so it is powerless is nothing new in scripture:

Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
Dan 2:45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.


The kingdom of God which Christ rules will break up the existing kingdoms of the nations leaving the people powerless to rebel. This is when the reign of the rod of iron over these nations takes place for a thousand years.

There is another use of a vessel being destroyed and it is not about killing people but breaking up an organization of people who rebel against God:

Isa 30:12 Wherefore thus saith the Holy One of Israel, Because ye despise this word, and trust in oppression and perverseness, and stay thereon:
Isa 30:13 Therefore this iniquity shall be to you as a breach ready to fall, swelling out in a high wall, whose breaking cometh suddenly at an instant.
Isa 30:14 And he shall break it as the breaking of the potters' vessel that is broken in pieces; he shall not spare: so that there shall not be found in the bursting of it a sherd to take fire from the hearth, or to take water withal out of the pit.

The metaphor of a vessel being broken is never about individuals being killed. God didn't kill every Jew. But their rebellion and sin against him caused the demise of their chosen status, even the covenant between them and God. Fast forward to the Millennium and again those who rebel against Christ shall have their wicked organizations broken up, leaving them powerless and unable to organize against Christ during this period of TIME of the reign/rule with a rod of iron. They live to be reigned over. When God allows satan to deceive them, then a brief and failed rebellion occurs and they are killed and judged and are no more forever.

Barnes:

As the breaking of the potter’s vessel - That is, as an earthen, fragile vessel, which is easily dashed to pieces. The image here is all drawn from the bursting forth, or the complete ruin of the swelling wall; but the sense is, that the Jewish republic would be entirely broken, scattered, demolished.




Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Barnes:

Psalms 2:9

Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron - That is, evidently, thine enemies, for it cannot be supposed to be meant that he would sway such a scepter over his own people. The idea is that he would crush and subdue all his foes. He would have absolute power, and the grant which had been made to him would be accompanied with authority sufficient to hold it. That dominion which was to be conceded to him would be not only one of protection to his friends, but also of punishment on his enemies; and the statement here is made prominent because the former part of the psalm had respect to rebels, and the Messiah is here represented as being invested with power sufficient to punish and restrain them. The Vulgate renders this “thou shalt rule;” the Septuagint, “thou shalt feed - p??µa?e??? poimaneis; that is, thou shalt feed them as a shepherd does his flock; thou shalt exercise over them the care and protection of a shepherd.


RULE

G4165
poimaino
poy-mah'ee-no
From G4166; to tend as a shepherd (or figuratively superviser): - feed (cattle), rule.
Total KJV occurrences: 11

G4165
poimaino
Thayer Definition:
1) to feed, to tend a flock, keep sheep
1a) to rule, govern
1a1) of rulers
1a2) to furnish pasture for food
1a3) to nourish
1a4) to cherish one’s body, to serve the body
1a5) to supply the requisites for the soul’s need
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G4166
Citing in TDNT: 6:485, 901


So, all the evidence shows that these people are cared for like how a Shepherd cares for his flock.

Kings and Priests help Christ rule over unsaved mortals. And the word rule means to Shepherd which means to take care for. Same job a King has, and the job of a Priest is to minister in a religious way. All this during a time Satan cannot deceive anyone for the first time in human history.


Revelation 19:15KJV
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


Except RULE is in the future tense and TREADETH is in the present tense meaning the ruling happens after Armageddon. Why haven't you studied the verb tenses? Why not actually study the scripture properly and thoroughly? What good is it to constantly post a verse not knowing much about it?
 

Truth7t7

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Yes he does.

Revelation 2 is clear the rod of iron reign doesn't start until Christ returns.

Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

That is the second coming. Everything we read of next comes after the second coming:

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

After "the end" comes, there is given power over the nations to those that are overcomers which naturally includes those who "are alive and remain" at the second coming. They will be given power over the nations after Christ has returned not before it.








It destroys the governments etc but not individuals:

RULE

G4165
poimaino
poy-mah'ee-no
From G4166; to tend as a shepherd (or figuratively superviser): - feed (cattle), rule.
Total KJV occurrences: 11

G4165
poimaino
Thayer Definition:
1) to feed, to tend a flock, keep sheep
1a) to rule, govern
1a1) of rulers
1a2) to furnish pasture for food
1a3) to nourish
1a4) to cherish one’s body, to serve the body
1a5) to supply the requisites for the soul’s need
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G4166
Citing in TDNT: 6:485, 901

There is nothing violent about poimaino.


Barnes:




The notion of breaking a nation or kingdom up so it is powerless is nothing new in scripture:

Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
Dan 2:45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.


The kingdom of God which Christ rules will break up the existing kingdoms of the nations leaving the people powerless to rebel. This is when the reign of the rod of iron over these nations takes place for a thousand years.

There is another use of a vessel being destroyed and it is not about killing people but breaking up an organization of people who rebel against God:

Isa
You disregard the fact Jesus returns in fire and final judgment (The End) you aren't going to remove the scripture seen below

Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)


2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.


2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance
on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.