The theological fallacy of a spiritual 'resurrection'

[Earburner]

Which are different people than martyrs of the past.

In this Age of God's Grace, all martyrs are equal in the sight of God, in that there life was taken from them for having faith in Jesus. No martyr will be honored above another, as being more worthy.
The martyred saints, who witnessed the life of Christ, are just as important as those who will suffer martyrdom for not taking the "mark".

 

[Davy]

All that supposed... scholarly work, and Apostle Paul tears it down with the following revelation...

1 Cor 15:42-50
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV


Apostle Paul's "spiritual body" IS... a type body also.

It is simply a type body of the heavenly dimension, what Paul also called the "image of the heavenly" that we shall also bear (when Jesus comes).

It is amazing that for around 2,000 years since Apostle Paul revealed the actual science behind the resurrection type body, which was still a mystery for most of the Church in his day, yet Paul fully explained it in the 1 Corinthians 15 and 2 Corinthians 5 Chapters, and today, 2,000 years later, and we still have to deal with men's FLESHY THINKING about it!

 

[Earburner]

The False Prophet exists before the image does. The False Prophet orders people to make the image. This is a timeframe future to today. The UN was created long ago and not by order of the False Prophet. You are making typical preterist errors. Revelation is mostly future events with very little past events.

Well of course the false prophet existed before the image does. The FP came into being in 1776, and the image was founded in 1945.
And yes, as per the FP's directive, the people of the world have made the image, known as the UN.

 

[Timtofly]

It's true that before we become saved and spiritually made alive in Christ we are spiritually dead in sins (Eph 2:1-6) and that's why some say that being born again is also a case of being resurrected, in a sense, but I'm not personally making that claim as far as claiming that the act of being born again is specifically the first resurrection. My claim is that Christ's resurrection itself is the first resurrection (Acts 26:23; 1 Cor 15:20,22; Col 1:18, Rev 1:5) and we have part in His resurrection spiritually when we become saved.

We are not spiritually dead. That is the point. We spiritually do not even exist. We are physically dead in sin.

To have a spiritual existence the soul needs a spiritual birth.

The resurrection of Christ is a physical resurrection.

When we yield to the Holy Spirit we are born from above into God's family. We only exist as being yielded to God's Will.

Only when this flesh dies does the soul receive a physical resurrection body. Having a spirit will only happen at the Second Coming. Even the church currently seated in Paradise, have only experienced a physical incorruptible body. They wait for the spirit given at the Second Coming.

We have part in the first resurrection when the soul enters Paradise and puts on the permanent incorruptible physical body. We have part in God's family when we yield the soul to the will of the Holy Spirit.

Now you can explain how we are spiritually dead prior to a spiritual birth. Birth comes first, not death. Spiritual death means we had a spiritual birth and then died spiritually.

Now in Adam we are all dead. But Adam died after being a complete son of God. Each individual is based on their own existence, not Adam's. None of us were sons of God prior to birth.

You are looking at this from a point that "spiritual" means "figurative" . There is no such thing as going from physical to spiritual. You cannot separate creation into sections of figurative thought processes. Creation is dead in sin and death. Until that reality changes, we are not sons of God, but only adoptions still in the process of restoration.

Jesus was not being figurative when He pointed out we need to be born again. We do need to be spiritually born. But we never stop being physically born. Adam had a soul, body, and spirit. We only have a soul. This dead body is not from God, it is from Adam. But Adam did not give us a spirit. God gives us our spirit at the Second Coming.

 

[Timtofly]

Christ's resurrection is not what is being spoken about in Revelation 20 nor is it speaking of anyone being born again. Those people died for the testimony of Christ which means they were born again before being killed. The only resurrection left for them to take part in is the resurrection of the dead in Christ Paul wrote about. The Amillennial understanding here ignores all the facts and re-writes it in the image of Amillennialism. That doesn't match the text whatsoever.

This is not entirely the point. They are not born from above. They had to choose beheading to remain in the Lamb's book of life. Their names were there before creation. The point is they would be removed if one receives the mark. Having one's name in the Lamb's book of life is not a guarantee they are sons of God. Choosing to remain is always the choice of the individual, not something God forces on individuals.

The point about getting the Second Coming wrong is getting Revelation and John's eye witness account wrong. The 42 months given to Satan is not tribulation, nor God's wrath. It is God's time given to those beheaded to make the choice between the mark of the beast and having their heads chopped off. The act of beheading is their testimony to Christ. Not some confession of faith. This is a time of utter abomination and desolation. There is literally nothing normal about this 42 months. There is no Holy Spirit at work. This is that time when such restraining is removed.

This is not a point leading up to a Second Coming. This is after the Second Coming, and after the final harvest. These souls are the gleanings. If there were no gleanings there would be no 42 months.

 

[Timtofly]

I am on topic! I was speaking about the power of Christ's resurrection, which is the FIRST Resurrection. If anyone hath no part in the resurrection of Jesus, they are not "holy", nor are they "blessed". Therefore the power of the second death remains upon them.

Paul saw the importance of that.
Phil.3[10] That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death

The issue with this point is you have not physically died yet.

Those souls in Revelation 20:4 were literally beheaded, not figuratively beheaded.

Until you can claim a physical death, you cannot claim their resurrection as recorded in this chapter. I doubt you are just making a metaphorical application. You literally think this 1,000 years will not happen. Since they were not metaphorically beheaded, you cannot use this as a mere metaphorical application of the here and now. You are ignoring a few points in your application.

Now you can point out figurative points of application, but you can never remove this from being a literal event, and not just a metaphor.

 

[Timtofly]

All that supposed... scholarly work, and Apostle Paul tears it down with the following revelation...

1 Cor 15:42-50
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV


Apostle Paul's "spiritual body" IS... a type body also.

It is simply a type body of the heavenly dimension, what Paul also called the "image of the heavenly" that we shall also bear (when Jesus comes).

It is amazing that for around 2,000 years since Apostle Paul revealed the actual science behind the resurrection type body, which was still a mystery for most of the Church in his day, yet Paul fully explained it in the 1 Corinthians 15 and 2 Corinthians 5 Chapters, and today, 2,000 years later, and we still have to deal with men's FLESHY THINKING about it!

You don't think Adam had a physical body and lived in a physical garden with physical plants, trees, and animals?

What were they then? Spiritual creations only?

 

[Earburner]

The issue with this point is you have not physically died yet.

Those souls in Revelation 20:4 were literally beheaded, not figuratively beheaded.

Until you can claim a physical death, you cannot claim their resurrection as recorded in this chapter. I doubt you are just making a metaphorical application. You literally think this 1,000 years will not happen. Since they were not metaphorically beheaded, you cannot use this as a mere metaphorical application of the here and now. You are ignoring a few points in your application.

Now you can point out figurative points of application, but you can never remove this from being a literal event, and not just a metaphor.

For having faith in Christ, which form of martyrdom is more worthy by God:
1. Stoned to death?
2. Burned to death?
3. Beheaded?
4. Crucifixion?
To make the selection of "beheaded", is to state that God classifies beheading as a form of death to be more worthy, and therefore is deserving of His preferential treatment above any other form of martyrdom.
Therefore, by such a conclusion, pre-mils falsely believe that "end time church" martyrs will be more worthy and above all other martyrs during this Age of God's Grace.
Sorry, I can't agree with that thinking.

 

[ScottA]

All of the following verses below use one or more of the following words, and all are speaking about the bodily resurrection:

égersis; anístēmi; egeírō:

|| Matthew 9:25; Matthew 10:8; Matthew 11:5; Matthew 14:2; Matthew 17:9; Matthew 16:21; Matthew 17:23; Matthew 20:19; Matthew 26:32; Matthew 27:52-53 & 63-64; Matthew 28:6-7; Mark 6:14 & 16; Mark 12:26; Mark 14:28; Mark 16:6 & 14; Luke 7:14; Luke 7:22; Luke 8:54; Luke 9:7 & 22; Luke 14:13-14; Luke 20:37; Luke 24:6; Luke 24:34; John 2:19-21; John 5:21; John 5:28-29; John 6:39, 40 & 44; John 11:23-35; John 12:1, 9 & 17; John 21:14; Acts 1:22; Acts 2:24, 31-32; Acts 3:15 & 26; Acts 4:1-2, 10 & 33; Acts 5:30; Acts 10:40; Acts 13:30 & 33-37; Acts 17:18 & 31-32; Acts 23:6-8; Acts 24:15 & 21; Acts 26:8; Romans 1:4; Romans 4:23-25; Romans 6:4-5; Romans 6:9; Romans 7:4; Romans 8:11; Romans 8:34; Romans 10:9; 1 Corinthians 6:14; 1 Corinthians 15:4, 12-23, 35-36, 42-45, 50-57; 2 Corinthians 1:9; 2 Corinthians 4:14; 2 Corinthians 5:15; Galatians 1:1; Ephesians 1:20; Ephesians 2:5-6; Ephesians 5:14; Philippians 3:10-11; Colossians 2:12-13; Colossians 3:1 (Compare with Romans 6:5); 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16; 2 Timothy 2:8 & 18; Hebrews 6:1-2; Hebrews 11:35; 1 Peter 1:3-5; 1 Peter 1:21; 1 Peter 3:18 & 21. ||

Not one of all the above New Testament verses employing any of the above listed words associated with The Resurrection is NOT talking about the BODILY resurrection. Not one.

Why should it?

That is, why should the scriptures do anything other than point to the spiritual--that is to God by means of what is manifest in the flesh? (Rhetorical)

The precedence for what I am pointing out...is Jesus' bodily resurrection followed by going to the Father who is spirit. As it is written:

1 Corinthians 15:46
However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.
​

The point is...the natural points to the spiritual--which is that created image of what is Godly made manifest in the flesh, as a light on a hill. So what? It doesn't prove anything that you seem determined to claim, but simply shows that the natural comes first, then the spiritual...just as it is written, just as it was with Jesus, whom we are to follow.

So, what? You are advocating for the flesh which is against the spirit--the very essence of God.

 

[Timtofly]

For having faith in Christ, which form of martyrdom is more worthy by God:
1. Stoned to death?
2. Burned to death?
3. Beheaded?
4. Crucifixion?
To make the selection of "beheaded", is to state that God classifies beheading as a form of death to be more worthy, and therefore is deserving of His preferential treatment above any other form of martyrdom.
Therefore, by such a conclusion, pre-mils falsely believe that "end time church" martyrs will be more worthy and above all other martyrs during this Age of God's Grace.
Sorry, I can't agree with that thinking.

John saw the souls of them who were beheaded. Perhaps you should ask John why.

Once again putting up a false accusation to tear it down again. No one here thinks beheading is a preferential form of martyrdom except you. I am sure you can convince yourself you are wrong.

 

[Earburner]

John saw the souls of them who were beheaded. Perhaps you should ask John why.

Once again putting up a false accusation to tear it down again. No one here thinks beheading is a preferential form of martyrdom except you. I am sure you can convince yourself you are wrong.

Then why are you focused on the martyrs of the "end time church" only, when God is equally concerned about all the martyrs, since Pentecost?

The book of Rev. was written a little over 1900 years ago, surely God would speak of the future for all of Christ's martyrs, and not just those of the "end time church".
1. The early church- "for the witness of Jesus".
2. The Reformation church- "for the word of God".
3. The end time church- refusal of the "mark".

The book of Revelation was written for the whole church, for all time, not just for the "end time church".
When you read Revelation in the Spirit (by the mind of Christ), you will understand that God speaks in the past, present and future all at the same time.

Our foolish human mind tries to make it out chronologically, by "the wisdom of men", thinking that all of the prophetic events are one after the other, in succession.
1Cor.2[5] That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

 

[ewq1938]

Well of course the false prophet existed before the image does. The FP came into being in 1776, and the image was founded in 1945.

Nonsense. The FP has no more than 42 months to be in power and he isn't in power yet, so the image doesn't exist yet either.

 

[ewq1938]

For having faith in Christ, which form of martyrdom is more worthy by God:
1. Stoned to death?
2. Burned to death?
3. Beheaded?
4. Crucifixion?
To make the selection of "beheaded", is to state that God classifies beheading as a form of death to be more worthy, and therefore is deserving of His preferential treatment above any other form of martyrdom.

Premills don't think that. You made that up yourself, a strawman fallacy.

 

[Timtofly]

Our foolish human mind tries to make it out chronologically, by "the wisdom of men", thinking that all of the prophetic events are one after the other, in succession.
1Cor.2[5] That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

I agree. It's foolish to say Revelation is not chronological.

Do you not accept Revelation 13:5?

"And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months."

Do these 42 months not exist in your reality?

 

[Zao is life]

You are advocating for the flesh which is against the spirit--the very essence of God.

False claims = no need for me to answer.
Paul teaches very clearly that the flesh-and-blood body that dies becomes the seed of the spiritual body that will be raised, and as you know I do not claim otherwise.

If the best you can do is to expose yourself as someone who makes false claims regarding what someone else says only in order to maintain your own false premise, then maybe you should do some more Bible study yourself.

 

[Zao is life]

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

We've all been through this with you before. You deny the teaching of Paul that the flesh-and-blood body that dies becomes the seed of the spiritual body that is raised.

No need to go through it all with you again. You've blinded yourself. Only the Holy Spirit can lift the scales from your eyes. I pray that God will lift the scales from your eyes, but until that happens, may God bless you too.

 

[Earburner]

So, in regards to Revelation 1:1, we are looking at the word "shortly", with the understanding that Jesus did NOT know the time of His return, but the Father only.
Matthew 24:36.

Now let's compare KJV Revelation 1:1 with Luke 18:8.
Rev.1
[1] The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Luke.18[8] I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

In that comparison, the Strongs shows that the same Greek word (5034) is used for "speedily" and "shortly". Now, through the context, we must discover what it is that shall be done speedily/shortly, and what causes His vengeance to be done shortly/speedily.
1. What is it that must be done shortly/speedily?
Ans. He will avenge His people

2. What shall be the cause of His vengeance?
Ans. When God the Father sees that there is no more faith on the earth.

Therefore, in conclusion of when God sees that there is no more faith on the earth, what is it that shall take place shortly after, and speedily?
Ans. HIS VENGEANCE.

.

 

[Earburner]

Nonsense. The FP has no more than 42 months to be in power and he isn't in power yet, so the image doesn't exist yet either.

Correct! The UN is NOT in power yet. But it will be, after WW3.
Since 1945 of it's founding, it has in essence, been like a dutiful and studious lawyer of international laws. The UN has been recording all the events and issues between men and their governments, with the necessary solutions to correct, rectify and dissolve hostilities between them, for "World Peace".
That time has NOT yet come, but we do HEAR THEIR WORDS:
1Thes.5[3] For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

For those who are of the pre-mil belief system, becareful that you don't get sucked into their concepts of "Save The Planet".

 

[Earburner]

Premills don't think that. You made that up yourself, a strawman fallacy.

Of course pre-mils don't think that. Just like the Pharisees, pre-mils are too much into the literal biblical words, and not that which the Spirit means.
Isaiah 55:8-9
Zechariah 4:6
John 16:13

1Cor.2[5] That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

 

[Davy]

You don't think Adam had a physical body and lived in a physical garden with physical plants, trees, and animals?

What were they then? Spiritual creations only?

And that has what to do with the price of books in Europe?

Apostle Paul said what he said because it is God's Truth, you ought to learn to actually stick with what God's Word says as written instead of listening to Jewish fables.