The thief on the cross misconceptions

[DJT_47]

Scripture that supports your claim please. Thank you in advance

 

[DJT_47]

No, rather it's up to you to provide scripture that supports deathbed salvation.

 

[ButterflyJones]

No, rather it's up to you to provide scripture that supports deathbed salvation.

Incorrect. You made a statement in the realm of absolute in an effort to disprove the thief on the cross was saved while on his cross.

An absolute I might add that vacates, according to your declaration, the work of pastors in hospitals, hospice, and clergy on the battlefield.

The onus is therefore on you to prove your statement has biblical support.

 

[DJT_47]

Incorrect. You made a statement in the realm of absolute in an effort to disprove the thief on the cross was saved while on his cross.

An absolute I might add that vacates, according to your declaration, the work of pastors in hospitals, hospice, and clergy on the battlefield.

The onus is therefore on you to prove your statement has biblical support.

I have already dealt with this in this posting. Read the OP. Jesus forgave
the thief while Jesus was alive, no different than he forgave the adulterous woman of her sins. This was done while the old covenant was still in effect. Baptism became a part of the salvation process after his death as did the other elements of salvation, namely, belief and faith, confession of belief as did the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8 consistent with Romans 10:9, repentance a d baptism on accordance with Acts 2:38. Now, its your turn to post scripture indicating salvation just prior to one's death on their deathbed without being obedient to the gospel as were others converted as recorded on the NT, NY their belief, faith, confession, repentance, and baptism fir the forgiveness of sins.

 

[ButterflyJones]

I have already dealt with this in this posting. Read the OP. Jesus forgave
the thief while Jesus was alive, no different than he forgave the adulterous woman of her sins. This was done while the old covenant was still in effect. Baptism became a part of the salvation process after his death as did the other elements of salvation, namely, belief and faith, confession of belief as did the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8 consistent with Romans 10:9, repentance a d baptism on accordance with Acts 2:38. Now, its your turn to post scripture indicating salvation just prior to one's death on their deathbed without being obedient to the gospel as were others converted as recorded on the NT, NY their belief, faith, confession, repentance, and baptism fir the forgiveness of sins.

Your perspective is one of works salvation, which negates grace and thus fails to be valid.

We are not saved by works but by God's grace through faith. Which is not of ourselves but is a free irrevocable gift of God. Not of ourselves so that none may boast.

The thief on the cross was saved by Jesus then and there.

The old testament is not applicable with the coming of and the manifestation of God's new covenant.

That covenant was taught by Jesus during his entire ministry.

No animal sacrifices to cover sins as in the old covenant. Because Jesus was the perfect unblemished lamb chosen before the foundation of the world for the propitiation of our sins.

He was the last lamb sacrificed on the sin altar that was the cross. His blood sealed the new covenant for all time.

The thief was saved because Jesus said so.

The thief did not have to work to earn his salvation just as no Christian today works to earn their salvation. And again that is because Jesus said so.

The idea that death bed conversion is not possible is utter falsehood and is unable to be sustained by proper Exegesis.

The thief on the cross was saved by the savior.

Matthew 27, both thieves on their respective crosses were mockers of Jesus.

While in the book of Luke we see what God told us about salvation being of God's grace, not of ourselves. Because the thief then came to know who Jesus was after having mocked him in the prior passage found in Matthew 27.

Luke 23:39–43

39 hOne of the criminals who were hanged irailed at him,4 saying, “Are you not jthe Christ? Save yourself and us!” 40 But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 And he said, “Jesus, remember me kwhen you come into your kingdom.” 43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you
will be with me in lparadise.”

Not a deathbed conversion. A cross conversion. Reiterating what Christians already know and because that conversion gave rise to that knowledge of Christ's truth.
That is, Jesus' work on the cross insured we do not work to attain salvation that is by God's grace alone. Not of ourselves so that none may boast.

 

[DJT_47]

Your perspective is one of works salvation, which negates grace and thus fails to be valid.

We are not saved by works but by God's grace through faith. Which is not of ourselves but is a free irrevocable gift of God. Not of ourselves so that none may boast.

The thief on the cross was saved by Jesus then and there.

The old testament is not applicable with the coming of and the manifestation of God's new covenant.

That covenant was taught by Jesus during his entire ministry.

No animal sacrifices to cover sins as in the old covenant. Because Jesus was the perfect unblemished lamb chosen before the foundation of the world for the propitiation of our sins.

He was the last lamb sacrificed on the sin altar that was the cross. His blood sealed the new covenant for all time.

The thief was saved because Jesus said so.

The thief did not have to work to earn his salvation just as no Christian today works to earn their salvation. And again that is because Jesus said so.

The idea that death bed conversion is not possible is utter falsehood and is unable to be sustained by proper Exegesis.

The thief on the cross was saved by the savior.

Matthew 27, both thieves on their respective crosses were mockers of Jesus.

While in the book of Luke we see what God told us about salvation being of God's grace, not of ourselves. Because the thief then came to know who Jesus was after having mocked him in the prior passage found in Matthew 27.

Luke 23:39–43

39 hOne of the criminals who were hanged irailed at him,4 saying, “Are you not jthe Christ? Save yourself and us!” 40 But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 And he said, “Jesus, remember me kwhen you come into your kingdom.” 43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you
will be with me in lparadise.”

Not a deathbed conversion. A cross conversion. Reiterating what Christians already know and because that conversion gave rise to that knowledge of Christ's truth.
That is, Jesus' work on the cross insured we do not work to attain salvation that is by God's grace alone. Not of ourselves so that none may boast.

Goodbye. Believe whatever you like.

 

[ButterflyJones]

Goodbye. Believe whatever you like.

I believe and take God at his word.
May you one day too if it be God's will.

 

[St. SteVen]

So in Mark 1:4 and Luke 3:3, was this baptism of repentance FOR (in order to obtain) the remission of sins or was it or FOR (in regards to/on the basis of) the remission of sins received upon repentance? It would have to be the latter in order to agree with the old testament mandate argument. In Matthew 3:11, we read: I baptize you with water FOR repentance.. Now did John baptize with water "in order to obtain" repentance or FOR (in regards to/on the basis of) repentance? Obviously, the latter.

Great post, thanks.
As a Protestant, I understand both baptism and Communion (the Lord's Table) to be a religious ceremony.
To me, a religious ceremony is an outward sign/demonstration/witness of an inward reality.
There is no power in the ceremony as an outward demonstration without the inner reality.

My Catholic friends have arrived at a different conclusion based on their church tradition
and understanding of the related scriptures.

Seems best to me to respect each other's position and seek to understand each other better.
I'm pretty sure we won't convince anyone to change their position on this.

It's VERY good to hear both sides. But at the end of the day, I hope we can all respect each other.

 

[St. SteVen]

Sorry. That's unscriptural and is actually contrary to scripture.

Sorry. That's redundant and is also redundant. - LOL

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

You have completely missed the point of water vs. spirit baptism and birth.

Being born of water and born [again] of the spirit, is as I said: being water born or baptized is "death." Read Rom 6:16 again--"The wages of sin is death." "It is the Spirit who gives life."

No, one is either serving sin unto death therefore lost or serving obedience unto righteousness. God commanded water baptism, (nowhere was any 'spirit baptism' ever commanded), therefore obedience to God's command to be water baptized is obedience unto righteousness. Furthermore, there is "one baptism" (Eph 4:5 in effect today (not 2 or 3 or 4 baptisms in effect) and that one baptism is the human administered water baptism of the great commission that was commanded by God, how Christians are made and last till the end of time...none of which are true of any 'spirit baptism'.


Jn 3:3---------------------------born again >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> enter the kingdom
Mt 7:21-----------------------doeth the will of God >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> enter the kingdom

There is but one way to be saved/enter the kingdom so there is a definite tie between being born again and doing the will of GOd. The new birth occurs when one is water baptized (born of water) and when one is water baptized he is obeying GOd's command to be water baptized, he is doing the will of God. Doing the will of God is not accomplished by any 'spirit baptism'.

If 'spirit baptism' is how one receives remission of sins/salvation, then those GOd has not baptized with "apirit baptism" are lost not due to their own fault but God's fault in failing to baptize them with 'spirit' and God would be having respect of persons (Acts 10:34-35) as to whom He baptized with 'spirit' and saves versus those whom He does not. This idea of 'spirit baptism' is something made up by men to attempt to get around the BIble fact that it is water baptism that saves, that is commanded, that is serving 'obedience unto righteousness'.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Read my other comments on this. The subject of baptism as relates to the thief should not even be considered since Jesus was still alive, meaning the old covenant was still on effect and not new. Si you couldn't possibly be baptized into Christ or his death as required under the new testament since he wasn't dead. Note the ref to Hebrews previously mentioned which clarifies this.

Heb 9:15-17 easily exposes 'thief argument' as false.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Your perspective is one of works salvation, which negates grace and thus fails to be valid.

God has commanded men to be water baptized, yet you are trying to take this Divine command and change it to a device (work) of man done to merit salvation. Do you not understand that obedience to God's will and works of merit are NOT the same things?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

To me, a religious ceremony is an outward sign/demonstration/witness of an inward reality.

Yet the BIble does not define water baptism as you do here.

 

[David in NJ]

Holy Spirit baptism is from Above = Jesus says "I am from Above, you are from below"

water baptism is wet and is from below

water falls to the ground and does not rise, therefore when we rise up from water baptism it is symbolic


Holy Spirit baptism was given so that we can Rise from dead works and please God - it is the Promise of the Father

If your faith is in water baptism you are from below.

If your faith is in the Risen Savior then and only then can you be saved = water not needed = His NT Blood Atones.

 

[ButterflyJones]

God has commanded men to be water baptized, yet you are trying to take this Divine command and change it to a device (work) of man done to merit salvation. Do you not understand that obedience to God's will and works of merit are NOT the same things?

You are very resolute in your belief.

I'll not argue what scripture has not imparted.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

You are very resolute in your belief.

I'll not argue what scripture has not imparted.

You are making a change to scripture.

Again, do you not understand that obedience to God's will and works of merit are NOT the same things?

 

[ScottA]

No, one is either serving sin unto death therefore lost or serving obedience unto righteousness. God commanded water baptism, (nowhere was any 'spirit baptism' ever commanded), therefore obedience to God's command to be water baptized is obedience unto righteousness. Furthermore, there is "one baptism" (Eph 4:5 in effect today (not 2 or 3 or 4 baptisms in effect) and that one baptism is the human administered water baptism of the great commission that was commanded by God, how Christians are made and last till the end of time...none of which are true of any 'spirit baptism'.


Jn 3:3---------------------------born again >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> enter the kingdom
Mt 7:21-----------------------doeth the will of God >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> enter the kingdom

There is but one way to be saved/enter the kingdom so there is a definite tie between being born again and doing the will of GOd. The new birth occurs when one is water baptized (born of water) and when one is water baptized he is obeying GOd's command to be water baptized, he is doing the will of God. Doing the will of God is not accomplished by any 'spirit baptism'.

If 'spirit baptism' is how one receives remission of sins/salvation, then those GOd has not baptized with "apirit baptism" are lost not due to their own fault but God's fault in failing to baptize them with 'spirit' and God would be having respect of persons (Acts 10:34-35) as to whom He baptized with 'spirit' and saves versus those whom He does not. This idea of 'spirit baptism' is something made up by men to attempt to get around the BIble fact that it is water baptism that saves, that is commanded, that is serving 'obedience unto righteousness'.

No, you have the wrong "one baptism", and it is not "God's fault" for He put it upon mankind to:

Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”—​

And that "tree of life" is not "water baptism." To say that it is, is to deny Christ and the scriptures in which John the Baptist contrasted the two, saying "I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

To the contrary, the commandment of water baptism was first "you shall surely die", and then water baptism only as a sign and a reminder that we must also "put out our hand and take also of the tree of life" (Jesus) and be baptized by the Holy Spirit.

But I am through with warning you about making an idol of water baptism and repeating what the scriptures and the commandment actually means. Do what you will.

 

[ButterflyJones]

You are making a change to scripture.

Again, do you not understand that obedience to God's will and works of merit are NOT the same things?

I understand that you are resolute in believing in your understanding and shall leave you to it.

 

[David in NJ]

No, you have the wrong "one baptism", and it is not "God's fault" for He put it upon mankind to:

Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”—​

And that "tree of life" is not "water baptism." To say that it is, is to deny Christ and the scriptures in which John the Baptist contrasted the two, saying "I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

To the contrary, the commandment of water baptism was first "you shall surely die", and then water baptism only as a sign and a reminder that we must also "put out our hand and take also of the tree of life" (Jesus) and be baptized by the Holy Spirit.

But I am through with warning you about making an idol of water baptism and repeating what the scriptures and the commandment actually means. Do what you will.

Religion likes to make idols out of isolated verses of Scripture = RCC , SDA, JWs, Baptists, Penetcostals, pre-trib.....and more

 

[ButterflyJones]

Religion likes to make idols out of isolated verses of Scripture = RCC , SDA, JWs, Baptists, Penetcostals, pre-trib.....and more

Denominationalism divided the church first. All that comes after is fruit of that tree.