The thief on the cross misconceptions

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David in NJ

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HalleluYAH - YHWH Yeshua has SAVED me apart from the law of Moses - HalleluYAH

HalleluYAH -
YHWH Yeshua has Placed me ABOVE the law of Moses for my Residency is in YESHUA - HalleluYAH

HalleluYAH -
YHWH Yeshua has Washed me and i am Kosher thru the High Priest YESHUA - HalleluYAH

HalleluYAH -
YHWH Yeshua poured the Annointing Oil of the Ruach HaKodesh Upon me - HalleluYAH

SHOUT it Out from the Highest Mountain Tops for ALL to HEAR
 

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Choir Loft
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Typical stagnant polluted water from the 'Law keepers' of death and sin................

You can keep your law of Moses BUT i will be kept by the Law of Christ.

Here is a WARNING to all who cling to the Law = You will be judged by it = No one has survived it's Judgment.


It is written: From His fullness we have all received grace upon grace.
For the law was given through Moses; Grace and Truth came through Jesus Christ.
No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is Himself God and is at the Father’s side, has made Him known.

It is written: A man is not a Jew because he is one outwardly, nor is circumcision only outward and physical.
A man is a Jew because he is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code.
Such a man’s praise does not come from men, but from God.

It is written: Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be justified in His sight by works of the law.
For the law merely brings awareness of sin

It is written
: Now, apart from the law, the righteousness of God has been revealed, as attested by the Law and the Prophets. And this righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no distinction, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

It is written: For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”
But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.”
Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”
"I did not come to abolish the LAW. I came to fulfill it." (Matthew 5:17)

Apparently you either didn't read what I wrote in the post you so vehemently despise or you are totally ignorant of the appropriate use of the LAW of Moses in the context of both Old and New Covenants.

Indeed, I doubt you even know the meaning of covenant.

There is no such thing as "the law of Christ".

You correctly quoted the passage which says no one is justified by the works of the law, which is the Law of Works I explained in my post. Again, you didn't read it yet you are adamantly opposed to that which you cannot or will not observe.

The law of Works IS NOT the same law as the LAW of Moses.

I explained this at length in my post. Please go back and read the whole thing.

After all your flaming words denying the LAW of Moses you end your post by writing "the man who does them (meaning the LAW) shall live by them." This proves you have no idea at all of the difference between the Law of Works and the LAW of Moses, which IS the law of Grace given by God to us.

Shall I prove it by God's own handiwork? READ this if you can;

Jews observe the day God gave the LAW to Moses in the feast of weeks called SHAVUOT. Shavuot appears on the Hebrew calendar 50 days after Pesach/Passover.

Christians observe the day God gave the Holy Spirit by GRACE to His disciples. This observance is called Pentecost and appears on the Hebrew calendar 50 days after Easter/Passover.

BOTH OBSERVANCES OF LAW & GRACE HAPPEN ON THE SAME CALENDAR DAY.

In fact, the Lord instructed His disciples to remain in Jerusalem until the Holy Spirit (Ruach Ha-Kodesh) comes (Luke 24:49).

This is NO COINCIDENCE. God is saying something very specific in the application and understanding of LAW & GRACE.

This is of God.

Denial of the LAW, which Jesus did NOT abolish is that which defends SIN.

Yet even Jesus could turn water into wine suitable for drinking.

Have a sip of mine. It won't kill you to read the words I've posted here.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
 

David in NJ

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"I did not come to abolish the LAW. I came to fulfill it." (Matthew 5:17)

Apparently you either didn't read what I wrote in the post you so vehemently despise or you are totally ignorant of the appropriate use of the LAW of Moses in the context of both Old and New Covenants.

Indeed, I doubt you even know the meaning of covenant.

There is no such thing as "the law of Christ".

You correctly quoted the passage which says no one is justified by the works of the law, which is the Law of Works I explained in my post. Again, you didn't read it yet you are adamantly opposed to that which you cannot or will not observe.

The law of Works IS NOT the same law as the LAW of Moses.

I explained this at length in my post. Please go back and read the whole thing.

After all your flaming words denying the LAW of Moses you end your post by writing "the man who does them (meaning the LAW) shall live by them." This proves you have no idea at all of the difference between the Law of Works and the LAW of Moses, which IS the law of Grace given by God to us.

Shall I prove it by God's own handiwork? READ this if you can;

Jews observe the day God gave the LAW to Moses in the feast of weeks called SHAVUOT. Shavuot appears on the Hebrew calendar 50 days after Pesach/Passover.

Christians observe the day God gave the Holy Spirit by GRACE to His disciples. This observance is called Pentecost and appears on the Hebrew calendar 50 days after Easter/Passover.

BOTH OBSERVANCES OF LAW & GRACE HAPPEN ON THE SAME CALENDAR DAY.

In fact, the Lord instructed His disciples to remain in Jerusalem until the Holy Spirit (Ruach Ha-Kodesh) comes (Luke 24:49).

This is NO COINCIDENCE. God is saying something very specific in the application and understanding of LAW & GRACE.

This is of God.

Denial of the LAW, which Jesus did NOT abolish is that which defends SIN.

Yet even Jesus could turn water into wine suitable for drinking.

Have a sip of mine. It won't kill you to read the words I've posted here.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
Are you a friend of ELOHIM or a foe???

Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man’s covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it.
Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made.
He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of One, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ.
And this I say, that the Law, which (was established thru Moses) came 430 years later,
cannot annul the Covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ,
that it should make the promise of no effect.
For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”
And he was called the friend of God.


HalleluYAH - i am a friend of ELOHIM by PROMISE and not by the Law

HalleluYAH - the Kohen Gadal has Purified my soul and bestowed upon me His Righteousness

HalleluYAH - the Ruach HaKodesh leads me by Way of the Path of His Righteousness
 
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Jim B

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The old covenant and the new covenant are the same. God hasn't changed His mind, abolished the LAW of Moses, or changed the structure of the universe and caused it to circle the earth.

"I did not come to abolish the LAW. I came to fulfill it." (Jesus as quoted by Matthew 5:17)

Read the next verse, #18. It says there that not one jot or tittle (Hebrew punctuation) would be lost from the LAW of Moses.

If the LAW is not abolished, then the LAW STILL STANDS.

Willfully denying the Word of God isn't picking at nits. It's a satanic effort to obstruct and obfuscate it completely.

The post-modern church has willfully denied the LAW so as to promote its financial business plan. It has no interest in God at all. Therefore any consideration that God has established a moral and spiritual LAW is considered to be some sort of absurd hate language. Many are today convinced by humanistic messages and do not have an understanding of the LAW of Moses at all.

For if the LAW is abolished, then there is no salvation both because the purpose of the LAW is to define SIN and to instruct one as to how to be saved.

THE LAW STILL STANDS.

One is saved by the blood. The water, according to 1 Peter, is an appeal to God for a clean conscience. A clear mind isn't the same thing as justification. Denial of the requirement of the blood of Christ shed upon the cross is nothing less than FALSE doctrine.

You quoted 1 Peter 3:20-21 without understanding the words you read. It says quite clearly that water is a SYMBOL of that which saves. It's only an APPEAL to God for a good conscience.

Was Jesus Christ a SINNER who needed to be saved? He was not, yet He submitted to baptism as a form of righteousness. Therefore baptism does not save. Baptism is a testimony of a clear conscience WHICH JESUS DID HAVE.

Again, salvation is enabled, by the LAW, through the shedding of blood. Peter is referring to a symbol of salvation and an appeal to God for freedom from guilt via baptism.

This error is further expanded upon by the post-modern church which now claims that CHURCH MEMBERSHIP SAVES via baptism. Nowhere in the Bible is there any claim whatsoever that church membership saves or that baptism is the font of justification before God.

If baptism saves, and not the blood of Christ as specified by the LAW, then Jesus died for nothing.

Are you now insisting that Jesus' death on the cross was a joke? That taking a bath on Sunday morning in front of the congregation is what saves? This is the error of the RCC as well as many protestant churches.

As evidence here I point to baptism as a LACK of salvation.
Most church types have been baptized either as a baby or after joining a church as an adult. Both Adolph Hitler and Joseph Stalin, two of the worst despots of human history, were BAPTIZED. Did it save them? NO. Did it cause them to embrace the normal Christian life? No.

Baptism is the EVIDENCE of faith in the saving blood of Christ. It does not save AS PROVEN by history. On the other hand, millions of people have been saved by the blood of Jesus Christ and have manifest the qualities of great contributions to human history and civilization.

The problem here is a variation of the tail wagging the dog. It plays well in the movies, but not in fact.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
You can holler all you want, but being loud isn't being right.

Christians are dead to the law! You either serve the law or you serve Christ. Read Romans!!!

Romans 7:4-6, "In the same way, my brothers and sisters, you have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead in order that we may bear fruit for God. For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. But now we are discharged from the law, dead to that which held us captive, so that we are enslaved in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the written code."

If you serve the law you deny Christ!
 

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Choir Loft
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Are you a friend of ELOHIM or a foe???

Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man’s covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it.
Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made.
He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of One, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ.
And this I say, that the Law, which (was established thru Moses) came 430 years later,
cannot annul the Covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ,
that it should make the promise of no effect.
For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”
And he was called the friend of God.


HalleluYAH - i am a friend of ELOHIM by PROMISE and not by the Law

HalleluYAH - the Kohen Gadal has Purified my soul and bestowed upon me His Righteousness

HalleluYAH - the Ruach HaKodesh leads me by Way of the Path of His Righteousness

Polly want a cracker?

All you seem able to do is PARROT phrases that you do not understand in the least.

Have you tried to understand what I'm writing at all or are you one of those back woods fools that wants to cut out the entire first half of the Bible? Let's try again shall we?

In the book of Exodus the chronicle is related that Moses went up the Holy Mountain to receive the LAW of God. There were two tablets written on both sides each.

While Moses was up on the mountain the children of Israel corrupted themselves.

Upon his descent from Mt. Sinai Moses saw the wickedness of the children of Israel and SMASHED the tablets he carried. Following much violence and plague upon the people Moses returned to the summit of Sinai to meet with God again.

On his second trip Moses received ANOTHER pair of tablets, which God wrote upon. Moses then returned to the children of Israel below.

Here's the big question; what's the difference between the two tablets? Bear in mind God wrote the same LAW upon each one (10 commandments - heard of them?).

Although the words inscribed upon the tablets were the same, something had changed with regard to God's relationship with Israel.

What changed? What was different AFTER Moses returned with the 2nd set of tablets?

You are very good at disrespecting the LAW and the One who gave it. You've called me a devil, which they also did to Jesus. Thanks for the compliment, btw. Those who respect their man-made traditions typically disrespect God's LAW.

I seriously doubt you'll be able to understand or even answer my question above. Parrots seldom do more than echo words they've been taught to repeat. Please try, though. If you have trouble with it, please reread the posts I've entered here. Every word of them is consistent with sound doctrine and the basic tenants of the gospel. I'm sorry that you don't understand it. I can try to illuminate, however. All you have to do is try.

What's wrong with the LAW of Moses? Is it evil now to claim the 10 commandments are good? You dance around the subject quite nicely, yet you cannot bring yourself to admit that it is indeed a blessing of God.

PRAISE GOD FOR GIVING US HIS TORAH.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
 
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David in NJ

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The Ten Commandments are True, Righteous, Holy and Found in Christ and in us who are in Christ.

Let me know if you see any mention of the Law of Moses here:

Psalm 98
Oh, sing to the Lord a new song!
For He has done marvelous things;
His right hand and His Holy Arm have gained Him the victory.
The Lord has made known His Salvation;
His righteousness He has revealed in the sight of the nations.
He has remembered His mercy and His faithfulness to the house of Israel;
All the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God.

Shout joyfully to the Lord, all the earth;
Break forth in song, rejoice, and sing praises.
Sing to the Lord with the harp,
With the harp and the sound of a psalm,
With trumpets and the sound of a horn;
Shout joyfully before the Lord, the King.
 

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Choir Loft
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The Ten Commandments are True, Righteous, Holy and Found in Christ and in us who are in Christ.

Let me know if you see any mention of the Law of Moses here:

Psalm 98
Oh, sing to the Lord a new song!
For He has done marvelous things;
His right hand and His Holy Arm have gained Him the victory.
The Lord has made known His Salvation;
His righteousness He has revealed in the sight of the nations.
He has remembered His mercy and His faithfulness to the house of Israel;
All the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God.

Shout joyfully to the Lord, all the earth;
Break forth in song, rejoice, and sing praises.
Sing to the Lord with the harp,
With the harp and the sound of a psalm,
With trumpets and the sound of a horn;
Shout joyfully before the Lord, the King.

The entire Psalm you quoted is taken from the Tanakh - that which Jesus often referred to when He taught His disciples. Please read the gospels to refresh your memory.

Technically the Psalms are part of a section called 'the Writings' and which include historic documents such as 1 & 2 Kings and 1 & 2 Chronicles which Jesus also quoted.

Jesus bound Himself to the entire Tanakh, as should we all.

If it was good enough for Jesus it's good enough for me.

On the other hand, there are a LOT of self-righteous church types that think they're better than that and who think the LAW ought to be tossed out with Jesus' dead body.

Fortunately neither Jesus nor the LAW has been destroyed or will ever be tossed out. Can you read Mathew 5:17-18? Tell me what it says.

Jesus said the LAW IS NOT ABOLISHED, not so much as one jot or tittle (Hebrew punctuation marks). Those that insist the LAW is dead have no idea what Jesus or I are talking about.

"You have to work really hard to be THAT stupid." (John Wayne)

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
 

Jim B

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The entire Psalm you quoted is taken from the Tanakh - that which Jesus often referred to when He taught His disciples. Please read the gospels to refresh your memory.

Technically the Psalms are part of a section called 'the Writings' and which include historic documents such as 1 & 2 Kings and 1 & 2 Chronicles which Jesus also quoted.

Jesus bound Himself to the entire Tanakh, as should we all.

If it was good enough for Jesus it's good enough for me.

On the other hand, there are a LOT of self-righteous church types that think they're better than that and who think the LAW ought to be tossed out with Jesus' dead body.

Fortunately neither Jesus nor the LAW has been destroyed or will ever be tossed out. Can you read Mathew 5:17-18? Tell me what it says.

Jesus said the LAW IS NOT ABOLISHED, not so much as one jot or tittle (Hebrew punctuation marks). Those that insist the LAW is dead have no idea what Jesus or I are talking about.

"You have to work really hard to be THAT stupid." (John Wayne)

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
Try reading Romans 7 carefully, then let us know how Christians are under the law. The law still pllies but only those who are not in Christ. He has fulfilled all the law's requirements, so if anyone is in Christ, s/he is a NEW CREATION and not subject to the law.
 

David in NJ

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The entire Psalm you quoted is taken from the Tanakh - that which Jesus often referred to when He taught His disciples. Please read the gospels to refresh your memory.

Technically the Psalms are part of a section called 'the Writings' and which include historic documents such as 1 & 2 Kings and 1 & 2 Chronicles which Jesus also quoted.

Jesus bound Himself to the entire Tanakh, as should we all.

If it was good enough for Jesus it's good enough for me.

On the other hand, there are a LOT of self-righteous church types that think they're better than that and who think the LAW ought to be tossed out with Jesus' dead body.

Fortunately neither Jesus nor the LAW has been destroyed or will ever be tossed out. Can you read Mathew 5:17-18? Tell me what it says.

Jesus said the LAW IS NOT ABOLISHED, not so much as one jot or tittle (Hebrew punctuation marks). Those that insist the LAW is dead have no idea what Jesus or I are talking about.

"You have to work really hard to be THAT stupid." (John Wayne)

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
Matthew 5:17-20
“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

ALL of the Law and Matthew chapter 5 has been fulfilled in Christ.

Now what remains is this: "unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven."

How are you going to accomplish this Commandment from the High Priest Yeshua???
 

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Choir Loft
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Matthew 5:17-20
“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

ALL of the Law and Matthew chapter 5 has been fulfilled in Christ.

Now what remains is this: "unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven."

How are you going to accomplish this Commandment from the High Priest Yeshua???

You know not the LAW. Neither do you wish to uphold it. Instead you seek ways to subvert that which Christ has given us and told us to obey in our hearts and in our lives. Yet the post-modern church continues to embrace SIN and deny all aspects of the LAW.

Jesus said, "I did not come to ABOLISH the law. I came to fulfill it." (Matthew 5:17)

What did Jesus do to fulfill the LAW? In all the postings here nobody seems to know - or care. They are all about justifying their SIN.

If Jesus didn't abolish the LAW, then...

THE LAW STILL STANDS.

Is Jesus Christ then either a liar or a deluded fool? If He isn't then THE LAW STILL STANDS.

Jesus said, 'I am the LAW.' Are we now to throw up our hands and say we can't follow Him?

"The LAW is not ... too difficult for you or beyond your reach." (Moses as quoted by Deuteronomy 30:11)

You asked, "How are you going to accomplish this Commandment from the High Priest Yeshua???"

I do it all the time. I do it every day.

I live the LAW by faith.

Those who do not - deny BOTH LAW AND FAITH (grace) that enables us to live lives pleasing unto God.

Why is this so hard to understand? Because the disciples of the post-modern church of satan will do anything to lie cheat and steal their way into licentiousness and to justify its wickedness in their lives and false worship.

But God doesn't play games with lawlessness.

Read my words and learn. If you, dear reader, do not then you reckon yourself worthy of punishment. I would not have it so.

It is time to REPENT of our SINs and wickedness in which we have grieved the spirit of Christ.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

ps Be not deceived, I am not here demanding we cannot buy a cheeseburger from MacDonald's on Saturday (3 violations of dietary and ceremonial law, btw). I am here acknowledging and insisting upon that which the spiritual and moral law requires of each of us.
 

David in NJ

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You know not the LAW. Neither do you wish to uphold it. Instead you seek ways to subvert that which Christ has given us and told us to obey in our hearts and in our lives. Yet the post-modern church continues to embrace SIN and deny all aspects of the LAW.

Jesus said, "I did not come to ABOLISH the law. I came to fulfill it." (Matthew 5:17)

What did Jesus do to fulfill the LAW? In all the postings here nobody seems to know - or care. They are all about justifying their SIN.

If Jesus didn't abolish the LAW, then the LAW still stands.

Is Jesus Christ then either a liar or a deluded fool? If He isn't then THE LAW STILL STANDS.

Jesus said, 'I am the LAW.' Are we now to throw up our hands and say we can't follow Him?

"The LAW is not ... too difficult for you or beyond your reach." (Deuteronomy 30:11)

You asked, "How are you going to accomplish this Commandment from the High Priest Yeshua???"

I do it all the time. I do it every day.

I live the LAW by faith.

Those who do not - deny BOTH LAW AND FAITH (grace) that enables us to live lives pleasing unto God.

Why is this so hard to understand? Because the disciples of the post-modern church of satan will do anything to lie cheat and steal their way into licentiousness and to justify its wickedness in their lives and false worship.

But God doesn't play games with lawlessness.

Read my words and learn. If you, dear reader, do not then you reckon yourself worthy of punishment. I would not have it so.

It is time to REPENT of our SINs and wickedness in which we have grieved the spirit of Christ.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
If you live by the Law then your righteousness will not exceed that of the "of the scribes and Pharisees"
YESHUA says: "you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven."


the HOLY SPIRIT says: "
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

Does the Law command us to remain under it?
 

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Choir Loft
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If you live by the Law then your righteousness will not exceed that of the "of the scribes and Pharisees"
YESHUA says: "you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven."


the HOLY SPIRIT says: "
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

Does the Law command us to remain under it?
I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. (Genesis 17:7)

EVERLASTING covenant means it's not broken. Those who bind themselves to it are NOT excused from its requirements.

Why do you defend SIN? Why do you seek any and every opportunity to forsake God's Holy LAW so as to embrace wickedness and licentiousness? Answer this question. If you have satan's ear you will no doubt provide an excuse or objection.

You asked, "Does the LAW command us to remain under it?" By its nature the LAW remains unchanged and unbroken.

"I DID NOT COME TO ABOLISH THE LAW. I came to fulfill it." (Jesus as quoted by Matthew 5:17)

Jesus and the apostles lived preached and died bound to the LAW of Moses.
IF ITS GOOD ENOUGH FOR JESUS THEN ITS GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME.
Not for you, apparently.

I have established SEVERAL times on these pages THERE ARE TWO LAWS.

Please read the following carefully:

One is the LAW of Moses (Torah) given by GRACE to mankind, written by God Himself.
The second is the Law of Works (Talmud) written by the hand of the Jewish rabbinate during their captivity in Babylon.

This Talmud is established by TRADITION as binding upon the Jewish people who have submitted to its false assertions.

I am not bound by Talmudic law. Neither is anyone else - including many Jews and Christians who deny both laws these days.

Even a human covenant, once it is ratified, cannot be canceled or amended. (Galatians 3:15)

The LAW of Moses was imperfect in that it specified sacrifice of animals as atonement for SIN. Animal sacrifices were imperfect because despite being ritually clean all the animals were MORTAL - meaning their deaths had to be repeated constantly. Animal sacrifice was TEMPORARY because the animals were MORTAL. Jesus FULFILLED the LAW of Moses (Torah) and made it perfect due to His IMMORTAL nature. Because of this quality Jesus' sacrifice for SINs was PERMANENT and made one time for all time for all people who embrace it BY FAITH.

Thus the LAW doesn't save because IT IS NOT THE LAW THAT'S SACRIFICED. The LAW tells us HOW to be saved - by FAITH in the blood of the Lamb of God. It is this FAITH that exceeds the righteousness of Talmudic pharisees. It is this same FAITH that's rejected by some Jews (*) to this day.

This isn't rocket science, but it IS a speed bump to blockheads who deny the efficacy of the death of Christ according to THE LAW and received BY FAITH.

Torah was given by GRACE from God, written in His own hand. It was given TWICE, by the way, because beni Yisrael SINNED while Moses was on the mountain receiving the first copy. The second copy of the LAW, although exactly the same in words, was different.

The issuance of two laws upon the summit of Mt. Sinai by God to Moses prophecies the two laws or covenants given to mankind.

What was the primary difference, the added difference in the second set of laws? It is the same as the New Covenant you hold in your Bible. But those who are fanatically engaged in justifying lawless SIN won't understand it at all. Jews don't, why should fools who sit in church and approve of SIN?

Please read what I've written and try to refrain from knee-jerk lunacy and idiotic arguments. All I've written is long established gospel doctrine THAT HAS BEEN REJECTED BY THE HUMANISTIC POST-MODERN CHURCH and many Jews too.

Praise God for giving us His Torah.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) Not all Jews reject saving faith in ha-mashiach Yshuah (messiah Jesus). A remnant has been preserved (Romans 11:5) I AM ONE of these Jews. You may insert your antisemitic hatred of all Jews at this point, but you cannot subvert the LAW of Moses because it cannot be abolished - according to Our Messiah and King, Jesus.
 
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Jim B

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You know not the LAW. Neither do you wish to uphold it. Instead you seek ways to subvert that which Christ has given us and told us to obey in our hearts and in our lives. Yet the post-modern church continues to embrace SIN and deny all aspects of the LAW.

Jesus said, "I did not come to ABOLISH the law. I came to fulfill it." (Matthew 5:17)

What did Jesus do to fulfill the LAW? In all the postings here nobody seems to know - or care. They are all about justifying their SIN.

If Jesus didn't abolish the LAW, then...

THE LAW STILL STANDS.

Is Jesus Christ then either a liar or a deluded fool? If He isn't then THE LAW STILL STANDS.

Jesus said, 'I am the LAW.' Are we now to throw up our hands and say we can't follow Him?

"The LAW is not ... too difficult for you or beyond your reach." (Moses as quoted by Deuteronomy 30:11)

You asked, "How are you going to accomplish this Commandment from the High Priest Yeshua???"

I do it all the time. I do it every day.

I live the LAW by faith.

Those who do not - deny BOTH LAW AND FAITH (grace) that enables us to live lives pleasing unto God.

Why is this so hard to understand? Because the disciples of the post-modern church of satan will do anything to lie cheat and steal their way into licentiousness and to justify its wickedness in their lives and false worship.

But God doesn't play games with lawlessness.

Read my words and learn. If you, dear reader, do not then you reckon yourself worthy of punishment. I would not have it so.

It is time to REPENT of our SINs and wickedness in which we have grieved the spirit of Christ.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

ps Be not deceived, I am not here demanding we cannot buy a cheeseburger from MacDonald's on Saturday (3 violations of dietary and ceremonial law, btw). I am here acknowledging and insisting upon that which the spiritual and moral law requires of each of us.
Obviously you don't understand "fulfill". It means "bring to completion or reality; achieve or realize (something desired, promised, or predicted)." Jesus fulfilled all the law's requirements. If anyone is in Christ, s/he is a new creation, and free from the law.

Your hollering doesn't mean you're right, it just means that you're loud.
 

David in NJ

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I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. (Genesis 17:7)

EVERLASTING covenant means it's not broken. Those who bind themselves to it are NOT excused from its requirements.

Why do you defend SIN? Why do you seek any and every opportunity to forsake God's Holy LAW so as to embrace wickedness and licentiousness? Answer this question. If you have satan's ear you will no doubt provide an excuse or objection.

You asked, "Does the LAW command us to remain under it?" By its nature the LAW remains unchanged and unbroken.

"I DID NOT COME TO ABOLISH THE LAW. I came to fulfill it." (Jesus as quoted by Matthew 5:17)

Jesus and the apostles lived preached and died bound to the LAW of Moses.
IF ITS GOOD ENOUGH FOR JESUS THEN ITS GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME.
Not for you, apparently.

I have established SEVERAL times on these pages THERE ARE TWO LAWS.

Please read the following carefully:

One is the LAW of Moses (Torah) given by GRACE to mankind.
The second is the Law of Works (Talmud) written by the hand of the Jewish rabbinate during their captivity in Babylon.

This Talmud is established by TRADITION as binding upon the Jewish people who have submitted to its false assertions.

I am not bound by Talmudic law. Neither is anyone else - including many Jews who deny both laws.

Even a human covenant, once it is ratified, cannot be canceled or amended. (Galatians 3:15)

The LAW of Moses was imperfect in that it specified sacrifice of animals as atonement for SIN. (If you want to argue atonement I can do that too.) Animal sacrifices were imperfect because despite being ritually clean all the animals were MORTAL - meaning their deaths had to be repeated constantly. Animal sacrifice was TEMPORARY because the animals were MORTAL. Jesus FULFILLED the LAW of Moses (Torah) and made it perfect due to His IMMORTAL nature. Because of this quality Jesus' sacrifice for SINs was PERMANENT and made one time for all time for all people who embrace it BY FAITH.

Thus the LAW doesn't save because IT IS NOT THE LAW THAT'S SACRIFICED. The LAW tells us HOW to be saved - by FAITH in the blood of the Lamb of God. It is this FAITH that exceeds the righteousness of Talmudic pharisees.

This isn't rocket science, but it IS a speed bump to blockheads who deny the efficacy of the death of Christ BY THE LAW.

Torah was given by GRACE from God, written in His own hand. It was given TWICE, by the way, because beni Yisrael SINNED while Moses was on the mountain receiving the first copy. The second copy of the LAW, although exactly the same in words, was different.

The issuance of two laws upon the summit of Mt. Sinai by God to Moses prophecies the two laws or covenants given to mankind.

What was the primary difference, the added difference in the second set of laws? It is the same as the New Covenant you hold in your Bible. But those who are fanatically engaged in justifying lawless SIN won't understand it at all. Jews don't, why should they?

Please read what I've written and try to refrain from knee-jerk lunacy and idiotic arguments. All I've written is long established gospel doctrine THAT HAS BEEN REJECTED BY THE HUMANISTIC POST-MODERN CHURCH and many Jews too.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
You keep saying that the Law was given by Grace, yet it does not say this in the Scripture.

John 1:17 - "For the law was given through Moses; Grace and Truth came through Jesus Christ."

The Everlasting Covenant that God made with Abraham was not the Law but God's Promise was established thru Faith.
The Law is not an everlasting covenant but was temporary until the time of the Promise of God.

"The law that came 430 years later does not revoke the covenant previously established by God, so as to nullify the Promise.
For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a Promise;
but God freely granted it to Abraham through a Promise." - Galatians 3:17-18
 
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Jim B

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I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. (Genesis 17:7)

EVERLASTING covenant means it's not broken. Those who bind themselves to it are NOT excused from its requirements.

Why do you defend SIN? Why do you seek any and every opportunity to forsake God's Holy LAW so as to embrace wickedness and licentiousness? Answer this question. If you have satan's ear you will no doubt provide an excuse or objection.

You asked, "Does the LAW command us to remain under it?" By its nature the LAW remains unchanged and unbroken.

"I DID NOT COME TO ABOLISH THE LAW. I came to fulfill it." (Jesus as quoted by Matthew 5:17)

Jesus and the apostles lived preached and died bound to the LAW of Moses.
IF ITS GOOD ENOUGH FOR JESUS THEN ITS GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME.
Not for you, apparently.

I have established SEVERAL times on these pages THERE ARE TWO LAWS.

Please read the following carefully:

One is the LAW of Moses (Torah) given by GRACE to mankind, written by God Himself.
The second is the Law of Works (Talmud) written by the hand of the Jewish rabbinate during their captivity in Babylon.

This Talmud is established by TRADITION as binding upon the Jewish people who have submitted to its false assertions.

I am not bound by Talmudic law. Neither is anyone else - including many Jews and Christians who deny both laws these days.

Even a human covenant, once it is ratified, cannot be canceled or amended. (Galatians 3:15)

The LAW of Moses was imperfect in that it specified sacrifice of animals as atonement for SIN. Animal sacrifices were imperfect because despite being ritually clean all the animals were MORTAL - meaning their deaths had to be repeated constantly. Animal sacrifice was TEMPORARY because the animals were MORTAL. Jesus FULFILLED the LAW of Moses (Torah) and made it perfect due to His IMMORTAL nature. Because of this quality Jesus' sacrifice for SINs was PERMANENT and made one time for all time for all people who embrace it BY FAITH.

Thus the LAW doesn't save because IT IS NOT THE LAW THAT'S SACRIFICED. The LAW tells us HOW to be saved - by FAITH in the blood of the Lamb of God. It is this FAITH that exceeds the righteousness of Talmudic pharisees. It is this same FAITH that's rejected by some Jews (*) to this day.

This isn't rocket science, but it IS a speed bump to blockheads who deny the efficacy of the death of Christ BY THE LAW.

Torah was given by GRACE from God, written in His own hand. It was given TWICE, by the way, because beni Yisrael SINNED while Moses was on the mountain receiving the first copy. The second copy of the LAW, although exactly the same in words, was different.

The issuance of two laws upon the summit of Mt. Sinai by God to Moses prophecies the two laws or covenants given to mankind.

What was the primary difference, the added difference in the second set of laws? It is the same as the New Covenant you hold in your Bible. But those who are fanatically engaged in justifying lawless SIN won't understand it at all. Jews don't, why should they?

Please read what I've written and try to refrain from knee-jerk lunacy and idiotic arguments. All I've written is long established gospel doctrine THAT HAS BEEN REJECTED BY THE HUMANISTIC POST-MODERN CHURCH and many Jews too.

Praise God for giving us His Torah.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) Not all Jews reject saving faith in ha-mashiach Yshuah (messiah Jesus). A remnant has been preserved (Romans 11:5) I AM ONE of these Jews. You may insert your antisemitic hatred of all Jews at this point, but you cannot subvert the LAW of Moses because it cannot be abolished - according to Our Messiah and King, Jesus.
Going on and on and on and on... doesn't make what you say right.

Your hollering is just noise, and lacking any value. Please read what I've written and try to refrain from knee-jerk lunacy and idiotic arguments.
 

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Obviously you don't understand "fulfill". It means "bring to completion or reality; achieve or realize (something desired, promised, or predicted)." Jesus fulfilled all the law's requirements. If anyone is in Christ, s/he is a new creation, and free from the law.

Your hollering doesn't mean you're right, it just means that you're loud.
Not loud enough, apparently.

You are correct in the definition of FULFILL you've quoted, but you fall short of understanding of the LAW that requires it.

Nowhere does the Bible say that faith in Christ makes one free from the law.

Jesus said, "I did not come to abolish the law. I came to fulfill it." (Matthew 5:17)

Jesus and the apostles lived ministered and died by the LAW of Moses.
IF ITS GOOD ENOUGH FOR JESUS ITS GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME.
Not for you, apparently.

What requirement of Mosaic LAW did Jesus fulfill? You are so adamant in your defense of SIN that you have no idea what the LAW requires or what Jesus did to fulfill it.

I've explained it at length here many times, but those who love their SIN and licentious false grace refuse to learn anything from the classic explanation of the gospel. Thus they bind themselves to the gospel of satan which cannot save a dead dog.

I've been patient and lucid in my explanations. Many here believe that stupidity is a virtue. So be it.

It is dangerous to go through life denying the LAW of God as given to us through Moses. Very dangerous indeed. Keep breaking it and you'll discover how dangerous it can be ----- church type though you may be... your church tradition won't save you though many churches today now tell their donators to follow it AS THE PHARISEES DID BEFORE THEM. Beware the leaven of the pharisees. It's being handed out every week in our churches. You are believing your own invented false church traditions and they won't help you a bit......though they continue to demand your tithes ACCORDING TO THE LAW.

Which is it friend, LAW or no law? If by the law, then you owe the 10%. If the law is abolished then you don't owe your church a dime.

Use your head, man.

Praise God for giving us His Torah.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft..
 

David in NJ

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Not loud enough, apparently.

You are correct in the definition of FULFILL you've quoted, but you fall short of understanding of the LAW that requires it.

Nowhere does the Bible say that faith in Christ makes one free from the law.

Jesus said, "I did not come to abolish the law. I came to fulfill it." (Matthew 5:17)

Jesus and the apostles lived ministered and died by the LAW of Moses.
IF ITS GOOD ENOUGH FOR JESUS ITS GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME.
Not for you, apparently.

What requirement of Mosaic LAW did Jesus fulfill? You are so adamant in your defense of SIN that you have no idea what the LAW requires or what Jesus did to fulfill it.

I've explained it at length here many times, but those who love their SIN and licentious false grace refuse to learn anything from the classic explanation of the gospel. Thus they bind themselves to the gospel of satan which cannot save a dead dog.

I've been patient and lucid in my explanations. Many here believe that stupidity is a virtue. So be it.

It is dangerous to go through life denying the LAW of God as given to us through Moses. Very dangerous indeed. Keep breaking it and you'll discover how dangerous it can be ----- church type though you may be... your church tradition won't save you though many churches today now tell their donators to follow it AS THE PHARISEES DID BEFORE THEM. Beware the leaven of the pharisees. It's being handed out every week in our churches. You are believing your own invented false church traditions and they won't help you a bit......though they continue to demand your tithes ACCORDING TO THE LAW.

Which is it friend, LAW or no law? If by the law, then you owe the 10%. If the law is abolished then you don't owe your church a dime.

Use your head, man.

Praise God for giving us His Torah.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft..
You said: "Nowhere does the Bible say that faith in Christ makes one free from the law."

YES, our Salvation in Christ and Freedom from the Law of Moses is all over the pages of the New Covenant.

O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing with faith?

Are you so foolish? After starting in the Spirit, are you now finishing in the flesh? Have you suffered so much for nothing, if it really was for nothing? Does God lavish His Spirit on you and work miracles among you because you practice the law, or because you hear and believe?

Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage(Law).
Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.
 
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Jim B

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Not loud enough, apparently.

You are correct in the definition of FULFILL you've quoted, but you fall short of understanding of the LAW that requires it.

Nowhere does the Bible say that faith in Christ makes one free from the law.

Jesus said, "I did not come to abolish the law. I came to fulfill it." (Matthew 5:17)

Jesus and the apostles lived ministered and died by the LAW of Moses.
IF ITS GOOD ENOUGH FOR JESUS ITS GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME.
Not for you, apparently.

What requirement of Mosaic LAW did Jesus fulfill? You are so adamant in your defense of SIN that you have no idea what the LAW requires or what Jesus did to fulfill it.

I've explained it at length here many times, but those who love their SIN and licentious false grace refuse to learn anything from the classic explanation of the gospel. Thus they bind themselves to the gospel of satan which cannot save a dead dog.

I've been patient and lucid in my explanations. Many here believe that stupidity is a virtue. So be it.

It is dangerous to go through life denying the LAW of God as given to us through Moses. Very dangerous indeed. Keep breaking it and you'll discover how dangerous it can be ----- church type though you may be... your church tradition won't save you though many churches today now tell their donators to follow it AS THE PHARISEES DID BEFORE THEM. Beware the leaven of the pharisees. It's being handed out every week in our churches. You are believing your own invented false church traditions and they won't help you a bit......though they continue to demand your tithes ACCORDING TO THE LAW.

Which is it friend, LAW or no law? If by the law, then you owe the 10%. If the law is abolished then you don't owe your church a dime.

Use your head, man.

Praise God for giving us His Torah.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft..
You are absolutely wrong, choosing your own false belief instead of what Scripture clearly says.

If I am in Christ and Christ has fulfilled the requirements of the law, then I have also fulfilled the requirements of the law.

I am dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Your hollering is nothing more than unScriptural noise.