The thief on the cross misconceptions

[Titus]

Does the Bible need to use those exact words? Plenty of examples. Ready?

John's baptism was public. That's an outward sign. (outside even) - LOL
And was a baptism of repentance. Inward reality? I hope so.

In the book of Acts we see some HUGE baptism events. 2000 and then 3000.
Those being added to the church.

Any possibility that these ceremonies were an outward sign of an inward reality?

Need more?
House of Cornelius, the Ethiopian eunuch, believers in Ephesus... More?

None of those examples taught baptism was for an outward sign of already being saved.

Ethiopian Eunch was baptized in a desert all alone with Philip,
Acts 8:37-38.

No one has verified yet that the NT baptism in the name of Jesus is because one is already saved.
Acts 2:38, repent...be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins. Peter said baptism is for the remission of sins. Peter said it again, 1Peter 3:20-21 ...baptism doth now save us.
Peter did not say, baptism, an outward sign that we are already saved.
Where does the Bible teach this?
If it does Peter is contradicting himself.

 

[St. SteVen]

None of those examples taught baptism was for an outward sign of already being saved.

What is it today?

 

[Titus]

What is it today?

Already gave you the answer, 1Peter 3:20-21. When will one of you show where the Bible says NT baptism is an outward display of an already saved Christian?

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
What is it today?

Already gave you the answer, 1Peter 3:20-21.

Why would give a NT reference to tell me what baptism is today?
That was then, this is now.

And frankly, that's a pretty obscure passage to build your baptism doctrine on.
Noah's Flood?

So, what are you claiming?
- that salvation comes through baptism?
- that believers today aren't saved until baptized?
- that baptized infants are saved when unbaptized adult believers are not?
(where are infants baptized in the NT?) Since you want to stick with the Bible.

When will one of you show where the Bible says NT baptism is an outward display of an already saved Christian?

Where is the baptism in this chapter? (Acts chapter four) Scripture verse below.
Were these believers UNSAVED before they were baptized?
Or never baptized? Therefore unsaved.

This says the number of believers (men - families) grew to about 5,000.
What was the thing being measured here? A show of hands?
Or an outward sign of their inward reality. Like baptism, attendance, devotion, spiritual growth, etc. ???

Acts 4:4 NIV
But many who heard the message believed; so the number of men who believed grew to about five thousand.

 

[St. SteVen]

House of Cornelius

cc: @Titus --- This is a pretty good example.
BTW the word Trinity isn't in the Bible either. Do you want to attack that one too?
Is the congregation at your church seated for meetings? Find that in the NT. See 1 Corinthians 14:29-30

What was the purpose of baptism in this passage?
The Holy Spirit came on ALL who heard the message from Peter.
Might this indicate salvation as a result of belief?

But Peter noticed that the USUAL order of events was backwards here.
Typically it looked like this. Belief > baptism > Holy Spirit evidence (manifestation)
In this instance, speaking in tongues and praising God.

Does your doctrine include the Holy Spirit manifestations of speaking in tongues and praising God?
See 1 Corinthians chapter twelve for the full list.

Acts 10:44-48 NIV
While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues[a] and praising God.
Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

 

[[email protected]]

"Righteousness" is a Gift from God, that we RECEIVE from God as "the GIFT of Righteousness".

Being Born again, is the only proof you have received God's SALVATION that is given as "The Gift of Righteousness", and "The Gift of Salvation".

Are we addressing mankind or God with this definition of righteousness?

The righteousness of man is different from that of God - of that which is presented in the Bible vs. secular society.

Secular society defines righteousness as something of a joke; as in "goody two shoes" or "Jesus freak". American secular society does NOT believe in morality, consequences of vile wicked actions or any sort of judgment either of God or our limp-wristed churches.

Biblical righteousness is defined on two levels; physical and spiritual.

Physically, our righteousness is defined by our adherence to the LAW of Moses. Do we lie, cheat, steal and murder the innocent? Doing so qualities one for political office, but doesn't qualify anyone as representative of the kingdom of God. Do we set a good example to others by behavior that's consistent with the LAW of Moses? Do we honor marriage or do we commit adultery and approve of those who do? Do we have sexual relations with persons of the same sex and approve of those who do or do we not? Do we accept love and affection for others as the primary measure of righteousness even if such love is an abomination? Physical righteousness is defined by God's LAW whether we like it or not. (Mostly we don't like it because nobody gives a damn what God thinks, either church types or secular types. The LAW of Moses is an expression of what God thinks.)

Spiritually, righteousness is defined by FAITH in God's promises and/or commands (mitzvah/LAW). For instance, Abraham was considered righteous by God because Abraham believed AND ACTED upon God's promises. The book of James speaks a lot about this ACTING out of faith - LIVING by faith. (James 2:26)

The Second Birth is a guarantee or seal that one will be preserved (saved) from death on the Day of Redemption (Ephesians 4:30b).

While the Second Birth is indeed a clear evidence WITHIN that one is saved, nobody else can SEE IT. Therefore we are told to DEMONSTRATE it to the world by certain actions. Baptism is one of those actions that we are told to exhibit for the world to see.

Unfortunately Baptism, like the eucharist, has become perverted and twisted into an expression of church tradition (not of God).

Christian tradition indoctrinates and manipulates its members into believing its ministers and priests are the complete and absolute embodiment of divine authority and that our allegiance to these people is necessary to please THAT which is above us all. Notice that in most apologetics for both baptism and eucharist the person of God takes a secondary position to the act itself. This is normally defined as 'works righteousness'. These traditions aren't accepted by God in any way shape or form. Numerous voices among the prophets and LAW attest to this state of abomination. As I said earlier, most people don't care most don't give a damn about God. Thus they go about their little fake traditions and consider themselves righteousness.

Meanwhile the world laughs at the inconsistency and hypocrisy.

I went into a biker bar one evening to speak the Word of life to those who drank and talked there. One man at the bar told me that he knew he was a SINNER, but that he preferred the company of others who were SINNERS like him. "The difference between us and church people," he told me. "Is that we know WHY we're here." By inference he was saying that church types don't normally know why they sit in their seats on Sunday morning. In the many years since that meeting I've found his words to ring true more often than not.

We are here writing and debating the quality of righteousness that no one wants to agree upon, yet we are supposed to acknowledge that all of us are saved by that upon which we disagree. Do you not see the humor in this situation? Do you not see the hypocrisy?

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[Titus]

Post #245

cc: @Titus --- This is a pretty good example.
BTW the word Trinity isn't in the Bible either. Do you want to attack that one too?

No, Read Colossians 2:9.

Is the congregation at your church seated for meetings? Find that in the NT. See 1 Corinthians 14:29-30

This question is redirecting the conversation off topic. I'm not claiming baptism is not for the remission of sins, Acts 2:38.
I'm not claiming baptism does not save us, 1Peter 3:20-21.
I'm not claiming baptism is for already saved Christians.
And this is the discussion.

I've heard you and others claim this but I get no scriptures from you as evidence?
Instead you are now questioning me on other topics.

Holy Spirit came on ALL who heard the message from Peter.
Might this indicate salvation as a result of belief

No, Peter was not finished preaching the gospel to them,
Acts 8:44,
- While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.

Peter tells us it was by his preaching the word of God that saved Cornelius and his household.
Nowhere will you find Peter teaching the tongue speaking that the Holy Spirit gave Cornelius saved him.
Acts 11:14,
- Who will tell you words by which you and all your household will be saved.

It is the word i.e. the gospel that saved Cornelius according to Peter.

Peter had not yet spoke all of the word to Cornelius when he began to speak in tongues.

Later Peter finishes his preaching of the gospel of Christ and we see it is exactly the gospel Jesus taught in His great commission.

Romans 1:16,
- For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes for the jew first and also for the greek.

What was that gospel Peter preached to Cornelius that saved him?
Acts 10:47-48,
- Can anyone forbid water that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord...

Could Cornelius be saved if he dis-obeyed Gods commandment to be baptized in the name of the Lord?

Mark 16:15-16,
- Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature he that believeth and is baptized will be saved; he that believeth not will be condemned.

Peter preached the gospel of Jesus Christ to Cornelius.

I've never heard of speaking in tongues being the agent that saves them.
If a gift of the Holy Spirit is evidence one is saved.
Then is Judas Iscariot saved?
He also had been given the power of the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 10:1-5,
- And when He had called
His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits to cast them out, and heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of diseases
Now the name of the twelve apostles were first, Simon who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee and John his brother; Philip and Bartholomew, Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus who surname is Thaddaeus; Simon the Cananite and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Jesus.

Judas had more gifts of the Holy Spirit than did Cornelius.
Cornelius had been given tongue speaking.

The purpose of Cornelius performing miracles was to confirm to the Jews that the gentiles had also been chosen to be saved in the kingdom of God.

Acts 11:17-18,
- If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ who was I that I could withstand God?
- When the Jews heard these things they became silent and they glorified God saying , Then God has also granted to the gentiles repentance to life.

I never heard anywhere in this conversion story of Cornelius, Peter teaching that Cornelius' baptism was a outward sign that he was already saved.

 

[St. SteVen]

This question is redirecting the conversation off topic. I'm not claiming baptism is not for the remission of sins, Acts 2:38.
I'm not claiming baptism does not save us, 1Peter 3:20-21.
I'm not claiming baptism is for already saved Christians.
And this is the discussion.

These are double negatives. ???

I never heard anywhere in this conversion story of Cornelius, Peter teaching that Cornelius' baptism was a outward sign that he was already saved.

I can't find the word Trinity in the Bible either. What should we do?

 

[Titus]

These are double negatives. ???

I can't find the word Trinity in the Bible either. What should we do?

We are to speak the oracles of God, 1Peter 4:11
Instead of Trinity the Bible speaks of Godhead. That is good enough for me.
Instead of an outward sign of already being saved...
1Peter 3:20-21,
- who formerly were disobedient when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which few, that is eight souls were saved by water,
There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh(what baptism is not) but the answer of a good conscience toward God, through the ressurection of Jesus Christ.

Acts 22:16,
- And now why are you waiting, Arise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

 

[St. SteVen]

We are to speak the oracles of God, 1Peter 4:11
Instead of Trinity the Bible speaks of Godhead. That is good enough for me.
Instead of an outward sign of already being saved...
1Peter 3:20-21,
- who formerly were disobedient when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which few, that is eight souls were saved by water,
There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh(what baptism is not) but the answer of a good conscience toward God, through the ressurection of Jesus Christ.

Acts 22:16,
- And now why are you waiting, Arise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

I'm here to build bridges, not walls.
Is there a bridge in what you are posting?

 

[Titus]

I'm here to build bridges, not walls.
Is there a bridge in what you are posting?

Yes, help me find your doctrine on baptism being for the purpose of outward sign of an already saved believer.

I've never found the NT, teach this doctrine on baptism in Jesus' name.
All I've found is baptism is for the lost to contact the blood of Christ,

Matthew 26:28,
- For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins

Acts 2:38,
- Then Peter said to them, Repent let everyone be baptized for the remission of sins

 

[St. SteVen]

Yes, help me find your doctrine on baptism being for the purpose of outward sign of an already saved believer.

I've never found the NT, teach this doctrine on baptism in Jesus' name.
All I've found is baptism is for the lost to contact the blood of Christ,

Matthew 26:28,
- For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins

Acts 2:38,
- Then Peter said to them, Repent let everyone be baptized for the remission of sins

Apologies. You are beyond my help.
Have you met anyone else that shares your view?
If not, that might tell you something.

An old college instructor of mine once said,
"If everyone is out there hopping on their right foot,
but you are hopping on your left foot, something's wrong."

 

[Titus]

Apologies. You are beyond my help.
Have you met anyone else that shares your view?
If not, that might tell you something.

An old college instructor of mine once said,
"If everyone is out there hopping on their right foot,
but you are hopping on your left foot, something's wrong."

All new testament christians believe what Jesus said, Mark 16:15-16.
I'm not beyond help are you?

 

[St. SteVen]

All new testament christians believe what Jesus said, Mark 16:15-16.
I'm not beyond help are you?

All new testament Christians? Both of you?
(you and the person in the mirror)

 

[Titus]

All new testament Christians? Both of you?
(you and the person in the mirror)

Peter taught what I teach on baptism and all my brethren around the world are not excluded.
So did Paul, Acts 22:16.

I've still yet to see a new testament scripture from you that says baptism is for the already saved.
Cornelius is certainly not an example.
Never heard any apostle teach it.
Only heard the apostles preach it is for the forgiveness of sins.

 

[[email protected]]

Post #245

No, Read Colossians 2:9.

This question is redirecting the conversation off topic. I'm not claiming baptism is not for the remission of sins, Acts 2:38.
I'm not claiming baptism does not save us, 1Peter 3:20-21.
I'm not claiming baptism is for already saved Christians.
And this is the discussion.

I've heard you and others claim this but I get no scriptures from you as evidence?
Instead you are now questioning me on other topics.


No, Peter was not finished preaching the gospel to them,
Acts 8:44,
- While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.

Peter tells us it was by his preaching the word of God that saved Cornelius and his household.
Nowhere will you find Peter teaching the tongue speaking that the Holy Spirit gave Cornelius saved him.
Acts 11:14,
- Who will tell you words by which you and all your household will be saved.

It is the word i.e. the gospel that saved Cornelius according to Peter.

Peter had not yet spoke all of the word to Cornelius when he began to speak in tongues.

Later Peter finishes his preaching of the gospel of Christ and we see it is exactly the gospel Jesus taught in His great commission.

Romans 1:16,
- For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes for the jew first and also for the greek.

What was that gospel Peter preached to Cornelius that saved him?
Acts 10:47-48,
- Can anyone forbid water that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord...

Could Cornelius be saved if he dis-obeyed Gods commandment to be baptized in the name of the Lord?

Mark 16:15-16,
- Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature he that believeth and is baptized will be saved; he that believeth not will be condemned.

Peter preached the gospel of Jesus Christ to Cornelius.

I've never heard of speaking in tongues being the agent that saves them.
If a gift of the Holy Spirit is evidence one is saved.
Then is Judas Iscariot saved?
He also had been given the power of the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 10:1-5,
- And when He had called
His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits to cast them out, and heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of diseases
Now the name of the twelve apostles were first, Simon who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee and John his brother; Philip and Bartholomew, Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus who surname is Thaddaeus; Simon the Cananite and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Jesus.

Judas had more gifts of the Holy Spirit than did Cornelius.
Cornelius had been given tongue speaking.

The purpose of Cornelius performing miracles was to confirm to the Jews that the gentiles had also been chosen to be saved in the kingdom of God.

Acts 11:17-18,
- If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ who was I that I could withstand God?
- When the Jews heard these things they became silent and they glorified God saying , Then God has also granted to the gentiles repentance to life.

I never heard anywhere in this conversion story of Cornelius, Peter teaching that Cornelius' baptism was a outward sign that he was already saved.

I'm not claiming baptism is for already saved Christians.
And this is the discussion.

I've heard you and others claim this but I get no scriptures from you as evidence?
Instead you are now questioning me on other topics.

What are you claiming? There's a lot of gibberish about tongues, which isn't efficacious at all. There's a few references to baptism being performed after one commits to Christ, but nothing about its meaning or purpose.

Scriptures as evidence ... of what .... exactly? One cannot prove a negative and that's probably why you aren't getting any quotations.

Baptism, as practices by John the Immerser, signifies REPENTANCE. One is immersed in water as a public demonstration that one has denied the works of the flesh - is buried figuratively speaking. One then rises from the water unto new life, which is a figurative demonstration that one has received the Second Birth.

Why is this necessary and 'righteous' as Jesus has said?

It's necessary because REPENTANCE, for the most part is an invisible quality of the heart and mind. So too is the Second Birth. Therefore it is necessary to BEAR WITNESS to the world of that which has happened in the life of the believer.

Tongues, on the other hand, proves nothing except that believers are expressing their celebrations in a manner consistent with drunkenness. (Acts 2) Pentecostal/Holiness types have fastened upon this act and have so enamored themselves of it that they now believe it save them when in fact it does not. It's become less of a celebration than a dogma.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[ButterflyJones]

Yes, help me find your doctrine on baptism being for the purpose of outward sign of an already saved believer.

I've never found the NT, teach this doctrine on baptism in Jesus' name.
All I've found is baptism is for the lost to contact the blood of Christ,

Matthew 26:28,
- For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins

Acts 2:38,
- Then Peter said to them, Repent let everyone be baptized for the remission of sins

What Does the Bible Say About Baptise In Jesus Name?

Acts 2:38 ESV​

And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[St. SteVen]

What Does the Bible Say About Baptise In Jesus Name?

Acts 2:38 ESV​

And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Are you agreeing with @Titus ?

He has been debating me over this comment. (if memory serves)

Baptism is a religious ceremony. A religious ceremony is an outward sign of an inward reality.

Agree, or disagree?

 

[ButterflyJones]

Are you agreeing with @Titus ?

He has been debating me over this comment. (if memory serves)

Baptism is a religious ceremony. A religious ceremony is an outward sign of an inward reality.

Agree, or disagree?

Agree. I posted that verse because he'd said there was no passage saying baptize in Jesus name, when clearly there is.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I would suggest before you enter a Christian community and the Bible discussion forum you may at the very least read the whole of the New Testament. This way it won't become immediately obvious you are playing games.
Because you appear to enjoy watching to see how often, how long, Christians will try to correct your lack of understanding.

I'll pray for you. Because that is deeply sad.

You are unable to find in the Bible where obedience to God's will is called work of merit, hence you make a personal attack rather than dealing with the subject at hand.