The thief on the cross misconceptions

[[email protected]]

I'm not saying anything. The scriptures say it. If the scriptures require belief then so be it. If thry too require confession of belief as did the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8 consistent with Romans 10:9, so be it. If they also require repentance as were tied to the Jews in Acts 2 on the day of Pentecost, then so be it. And likewise, if the scriptures say one must be baptized to be saved, then so be it.

Mark 16:15-16

15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Belief + baptism = salvation

The chief problem with dogma these days is that it's taught by some churches so as to manipulate and indoctrinate membership into supporting the enterprise.

The method of manipulation and indoctrination generally nudges church folks into accepting certain tangential ideas as valid by quoting scripture to support the theory. Satan did this several times when it tempted Christ. It's a tried a true method of indoctrination employed by the church and despots throughout history.

Consider if you will the 10th plague upon Egypt.

After suffering 9 previous plagues that wrecked the Egyptian empire the 10th plague brought death to the door of everyone in the nation. Everyone, that is, EXCEPT those who applied lambs' blood to their door posts and lintels. When God visited Egypt and saw the lamb's blood, those within the house were spared to live.

I read nothing in Exodus about baptism as a form of deliverance from bondage. Do you?

It was an act of faith inspired by God's GRACE that resulted in life. To this day Jews and many non-Jews celebrate the life and liberty that resulted when God's wrath PASSED OVER the land of Egypt. Death passed over those who acted and hoped BY FAITH. The event became a template or model for what God did on the cross millennia later.

The Bible tells us that Jesus IS the lamb of God. When His blood is applied to our lives BY FAITH, then God has promised to pass over us and NOT apply the Second Death to us. This is what's meant by 'being saved'. I cannot think of any better term to describe God's gracious gift to us. Thus it is the blood of Christ that saves us.

Baptism is an ACT of righteousness or PUBLIC TESTIMONY of that which God has graciously done in our lives. Indeed, Revelation 12:11 states " They (believers) triumphed over him (satan) by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony;"

It is the blood that saves us and it is the testimony in word and deed (baptism) that conquers.

Anybody who puts the testimony before the redeeming blood of Christ is speaking to church tradition rather than Biblical precedent. It is church tradition that causes one to stumble EVEN AS Jewish tradition caused the Jews to stumble.

Tradition has its place, but it does not save.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[David in NJ]

The chief problem with dogma these days is that it's taught by some churches so as to manipulate and indoctrinate membership into supporting the enterprise.

The method of manipulation and indoctrination generally nudges church folks into accepting certain tangential ideas as valid by quoting scripture to support the theory. Satan did this several times when it tempted Christ. It's a tried a true method of indoctrination employed by the church and despots throughout history.

Consider if you will the 10th plague upon Egypt.

After suffering 9 previous plagues that wrecked the Egyptian empire the 10th plague brought death to the door of everyone in the nation. Everyone, that is, EXCEPT those who applied lambs' blood to their door posts and lintels. When God visited Egypt and saw the lamb's blood, those within the house were spared to live.

I read nothing in Exodus about baptism as a form of deliverance from bondage. Do you?

It was an act of faith inspired by God's GRACE that resulted in life. To this day Jews and many non-Jews celebrate the life and liberty that resulted when God's wrath PASSED OVER the land of Egypt. Death passed over those who acted and hoped BY FAITH. The event became a template or model for what God did on the cross millennia later.

The Bible tells us that Jesus IS the lamb of God. When His blood is applied to our lives BY FAITH, then God has promised to pass over us and NOT apply the Second Death to us. This is what's meant by 'being saved'. I cannot think of any better term to describe God's gracious gift to us. Thus it is the blood of Christ that saves us.

Baptism is an ACT of righteousness or PUBLIC TESTIMONY of that which God has graciously done in our lives. Indeed, Revelation 12:11 states " They (believers) triumphed over him (satan) by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony;"

It is the blood that saves us and it is the testimony in word and deed (baptism) that conquers.

Anybody who puts the testimony before the redeeming blood of Christ is speaking to church tradition rather than Biblical precedent. It is church tradition that causes one to stumble EVEN AS Jewish tradition caused the Jews to stumble.

Tradition has its place, but it does not save.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Your Post here is clear and concise flowing in the Grace and Truth that saves us = Thank You

 

[David in NJ]

The chief problem with dogma these days is that it's taught by some churches so as to manipulate and indoctrinate membership into supporting the enterprise.

The method of manipulation and indoctrination generally nudges church folks into accepting certain tangential ideas as valid by quoting scripture to support the theory. Satan did this several times when it tempted Christ. It's a tried a true method of indoctrination employed by the church and despots throughout history.

Consider if you will the 10th plague upon Egypt.

After suffering 9 previous plagues that wrecked the Egyptian empire the 10th plague brought death to the door of everyone in the nation. Everyone, that is, EXCEPT those who applied lambs' blood to their door posts and lintels. When God visited Egypt and saw the lamb's blood, those within the house were spared to live.

I read nothing in Exodus about baptism as a form of deliverance from bondage. Do you?

It was an act of faith inspired by God's GRACE that resulted in life. To this day Jews and many non-Jews celebrate the life and liberty that resulted when God's wrath PASSED OVER the land of Egypt. Death passed over those who acted and hoped BY FAITH. The event became a template or model for what God did on the cross millennia later.

The Bible tells us that Jesus IS the lamb of God. When His blood is applied to our lives BY FAITH, then God has promised to pass over us and NOT apply the Second Death to us. This is what's meant by 'being saved'. I cannot think of any better term to describe God's gracious gift to us. Thus it is the blood of Christ that saves us.

Baptism is an ACT of righteousness or PUBLIC TESTIMONY of that which God has graciously done in our lives. Indeed, Revelation 12:11 states " They (believers) triumphed over him (satan) by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony;"

It is the blood that saves us and it is the testimony in word and deed (baptism) that conquers.

Anybody who puts the testimony before the redeeming blood of Christ is speaking to church tradition rather than Biblical precedent. It is church tradition that causes one to stumble EVEN AS Jewish tradition caused the Jews to stumble.

Tradition has its place, but it does not save.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

P.S. - never feel as though you are 'preaching to the choir'

We overcome satan and sin thru our testimony that comes from the Holy Spirit.
For me, it never grows old, no matter how many times we speak it forth in praise - Amen.

 

[[email protected]]

I'm not picking at nits. People constantly use the argument contrary to baptism as a requirement citing the thief on the cross as justification.

Tell Peter that baptism doesn't save as he stated to the contrary in 1 Peter 3:20-1. You're wrong, Peter was right. Further to this point, how does one become (scripturally) a member if the body of Christ, the church? Only one way and that's by being baptized into it.

And of there is no difference between the old and new covenants, they are then the same which makes zero sense.

And for sure I'm in no way catholic or di u support any of that man made up unscriptural nonsense.

The old covenant and the new covenant are the same. God hasn't changed His mind, abolished the LAW of Moses, or changed the structure of the universe and caused it to circle the earth.

"I did not come to abolish the LAW. I came to fulfill it." (Jesus as quoted by Matthew 5:17)

Read the next verse, #18. It says there that not one jot or tittle (Hebrew punctuation) would be lost from the LAW of Moses.

If the LAW is not abolished, then the LAW STILL STANDS.

Willfully denying the Word of God isn't picking at nits. It's a satanic effort to obstruct and obfuscate it completely.

The post-modern church has willfully denied the LAW so as to promote its financial business plan. It has no interest in God at all. Therefore any consideration that God has established a moral and spiritual LAW is considered to be some sort of absurd hate language. Many are today convinced by humanistic messages and do not have an understanding of the LAW of Moses at all.

For if the LAW is abolished, then there is no salvation both because the purpose of the LAW is to define SIN and to instruct one as to how to be saved.

THE LAW STILL STANDS.

One is saved by the blood. The water, according to 1 Peter, is an appeal to God for a clean conscience. A clear mind isn't the same thing as justification. Denial of the requirement of the blood of Christ shed upon the cross is nothing less than FALSE doctrine.

You quoted 1 Peter 3:20-21 without understanding the words you read. It says quite clearly that water is a SYMBOL of that which saves. It's only an APPEAL to God for a good conscience.

Was Jesus Christ a SINNER who needed to be saved? He was not, yet He submitted to baptism as a form of righteousness. Therefore baptism does not save. Baptism is a testimony of a clear conscience WHICH JESUS DID HAVE.

Again, salvation is enabled, by the LAW, through the shedding of blood. Peter is referring to a symbol of salvation and an appeal to God for freedom from guilt via baptism.

This error is further expanded upon by the post-modern church which now claims that CHURCH MEMBERSHIP SAVES via baptism. Nowhere in the Bible is there any claim whatsoever that church membership saves or that baptism is the font of justification before God.

If baptism saves, and not the blood of Christ as specified by the LAW, then Jesus died for nothing.

Are you now insisting that Jesus' death on the cross was a joke? That taking a bath on Sunday morning in front of the congregation is what saves? This is the error of the RCC as well as many protestant churches.

As evidence here I point to baptism as a LACK of salvation.
Most church types have been baptized either as a baby or after joining a church as an adult. Both Adolph Hitler and Joseph Stalin, two of the worst despots of human history, were BAPTIZED. Did it save them? NO. Did it cause them to embrace the normal Christian life? No.

Baptism is the EVIDENCE of faith in the saving blood of Christ. It does not save AS PROVEN by history. On the other hand, millions of people have been saved by the blood of Jesus Christ and have manifest the qualities of great contributions to human history and civilization.

The problem here is a variation of the tail wagging the dog. It plays well in the movies, but not in fact.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[Jim B]

The old covenant and the new covenant are the same. God hasn't changed His mind, abolished the LAW of Moses, or changed the structure of the universe and caused it to circle the earth.

"I did not come to abolish the LAW. I came to fulfill it." (Jesus as quoted by Matthew 5:17)

Read the next verse, #18. It says there that not one jot or tittle (Hebrew punctuation) would be lost from the LAW of Moses.

If the LAW is not abolished, then the LAW STILL STANDS.

Willfully denying the Word of God isn't picking at nits. It's a satanic effort to obstruct and obfuscate it completely.

The post-modern church has willfully denied the LAW so as to promote its financial business plan. It has no interest in God at all. Therefore any consideration that God has established a moral and spiritual LAW is considered to be some sort of absurd hate language. Many are today convinced by humanistic messages and do not have an understanding of the LAW of Moses at all.

For if the LAW is abolished, then there is no salvation both because the purpose of the LAW is to define SIN and to instruct one as to how to be saved.

THE LAW STILL STANDS.

One is saved by the blood. The water, according to 1 Peter, is an appeal to God for a clean conscience. A clear mind isn't the same thing as justification. Denial of the requirement of the blood of Christ shed upon the cross is nothing less than FALSE doctrine.

You quoted 1 Peter 3:20-21 without understanding the words you read. It says quite clearly that water is a SYMBOL of that which saves. It's only an APPEAL to God for a good conscience.

Was Jesus Christ a SINNER who needed to be saved? He was not, yet He submitted to baptism as a form of righteousness. Therefore baptism does not save. Baptism is a testimony of a clear conscience WHICH JESUS DID HAVE.

Again, salvation is enabled, by the LAW, through the shedding of blood. Peter is referring to a symbol of salvation and an appeal to God for freedom from guilt via baptism.

This error is further expanded upon by the post-modern church which now claims that CHURCH MEMBERSHIP SAVES via baptism. Nowhere in the Bible is there any claim whatsoever that church membership saves or that baptism is the font of justification before God.

If baptism saves, and not the blood of Christ as specified by the LAW, then Jesus died for nothing.

Are you now insisting that Jesus' death on the cross was a joke? That taking a bath on Sunday morning in front of the congregation is what saves? This is the error of the RCC as well as many protestant churches.

As evidence here I point to baptism as a LACK of salvation.
Most church types have been baptized either as a baby or after joining a church as an adult. Both Adolph Hitler and Joseph Stalin, two of the worst despots of human history, were BAPTIZED. Did it save them? NO. Did it cause them to embrace the normal Christian life? No.

Baptism is the EVIDENCE of faith in the saving blood of Christ. It does not save AS PROVEN by history. On the other hand, millions of people have been saved by the blood of Jesus Christ and have manifest the qualities of great contributions to human history and civilization.

The problem here is a variation of the tail wagging the dog. It plays well in the movies, but not in fact.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

I stopped reading at this: "The old covenant and the new covenant are the same."

Hebrews 8:6-7, " But Jesus has now obtained a more excellent ministry, and to that degree he is the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on the basis of better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no need to look for a second one."

 

[Johann]

Hebrews 8:6-7, " But Jesus has now obtained a more excellent ministry, and to that degree he is the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on the basis of better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no need to look for a second one."

This proves the gospel covenant better than the Mosaical, for if it had not, there would have been no second.
For if that first covenant had been faultless: that first covenant, of which Moses was the mediator, as to the administration of it, (as to the matter of it, it was the same from Adam throughout all ages), was faulty; not because God made it, though it was a less perfect good than what succeeded it; it was able to save those who would rightly use it, and come unto Christ by it, Gal_3:24;

but accidentally, by reason of the priests’ faults, and people’s sinfulness, it became wholly ineffectual to them for saving them; therefore the blame and fault of it is charged on them, Heb_8:8.

Then should no place have been sought for the second: the question here is vehemently assertive; if that covenant in its Mosaical administration had reached effectually its end, brought all that were under it to Christ, to be saved by him, no place nor room was there, that then being so perfect, for another to succeed it, God would have rested there; but his excellent wisdom and counsel determined to put in being the second, and to set it in the place of the first, that was faulty, and which was to be abrogated by it, Gal_3:21.
Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

we are no longer under a schoolmaster; under the law as such; as no longer under it as a military guard, nor in it as a prison, so neither under it as a schoolmaster; not needing its instructions, or its discipline; since Christ is come as a prophet to teach and instruct, as a priest to atone for sin, and make intercession for transgressors, and as a King to rule and govern; in whose hands, and not in the hands of Moses, the law now is, as a rule of walk and conversation.

J.

 

[David in NJ]

The old covenant and the new covenant are the same. God hasn't changed His mind, abolished the LAW of Moses, or changed the structure of the universe and caused it to circle the earth.

"I did not come to abolish the LAW. I came to fulfill it." (Jesus as quoted by Matthew 5:17)

Read the next verse, #18. It says there that not one jot or tittle (Hebrew punctuation) would be lost from the LAW of Moses.

If the LAW is not abolished, then the LAW STILL STANDS.

Willfully denying the Word of God isn't picking at nits. It's a satanic effort to obstruct and obfuscate it completely.

The post-modern church has willfully denied the LAW so as to promote its financial business plan. It has no interest in God at all. Therefore any consideration that God has established a moral and spiritual LAW is considered to be some sort of absurd hate language. Many are today convinced by humanistic messages and do not have an understanding of the LAW of Moses at all.

For if the LAW is abolished, then there is no salvation both because the purpose of the LAW is to define SIN and to instruct one as to how to be saved.

THE LAW STILL STANDS.

One is saved by the blood. The water, according to 1 Peter, is an appeal to God for a clean conscience. A clear mind isn't the same thing as justification. Denial of the requirement of the blood of Christ shed upon the cross is nothing less than FALSE doctrine.

You quoted 1 Peter 3:20-21 without understanding the words you read. It says quite clearly that water is a SYMBOL of that which saves. It's only an APPEAL to God for a good conscience.

Was Jesus Christ a SINNER who needed to be saved? He was not, yet He submitted to baptism as a form of righteousness. Therefore baptism does not save. Baptism is a testimony of a clear conscience WHICH JESUS DID HAVE.

Again, salvation is enabled, by the LAW, through the shedding of blood. Peter is referring to a symbol of salvation and an appeal to God for freedom from guilt via baptism.

This error is further expanded upon by the post-modern church which now claims that CHURCH MEMBERSHIP SAVES via baptism. Nowhere in the Bible is there any claim whatsoever that church membership saves or that baptism is the font of justification before God.

If baptism saves, and not the blood of Christ as specified by the LAW, then Jesus died for nothing.

Are you now insisting that Jesus' death on the cross was a joke? That taking a bath on Sunday morning in front of the congregation is what saves? This is the error of the RCC as well as many protestant churches.

As evidence here I point to baptism as a LACK of salvation.
Most church types have been baptized either as a baby or after joining a church as an adult. Both Adolph Hitler and Joseph Stalin, two of the worst despots of human history, were BAPTIZED. Did it save them? NO. Did it cause them to embrace the normal Christian life? No.

Baptism is the EVIDENCE of faith in the saving blood of Christ. It does not save AS PROVEN by history. On the other hand, millions of people have been saved by the blood of Jesus Christ and have manifest the qualities of great contributions to human history and civilization.

The problem here is a variation of the tail wagging the dog. It plays well in the movies, but not in fact.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

How do you see the Law as "still standing" ?

 

[Johann]

Rabbi Yaakov Ades writes: “The more we know about the value of the Law and of our soul, the more strength we will have to strive and overcome in the work of the LORD. Therefore, we need to know the great value of the Law and the commandments.

The Vilna Gaon explains, that the entire purpose of creation, the giving of the Law and the choosing of the people of Israel is that we connect to the LORD, blessed is He, and the Law is the medium, and is the most important in the world, and the entire world is nothing compared to studying the law, and compared to keeping a commandment, as nothing compares to the Law.” (Yeshiva.org.il)

We have no doubt that the biblical Law is the word of God, but from the rabbi’s words, and from what the rabbis have been saying for thousands of years, they seem to have got the impression that the commandments of the Torah (Law), are THE most important and central thing to God.


But would God agree that the commandments are the main point of these first five books?

Refuting rabbinic objections to Christianity and Jesus and Messianic Prophecies


The Sages claimed that the Law was given to Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, and that Adam was busy studying the Law all day long. Maran Hagaon Rabbi Chaim Kanievsky wrote: “Adam, the first man, studied the Law. The world was created for the Law.”


Have you ever left after watching a movie without really understanding it all? Feeling like you must have missed something, and that you only understood a fraction of the entire story? But the second time you saw the movie, suddenly you realize that the central theme of the movie, is not at all what you thought it to be. But wait a second, how is this related to the Law?

The Pentateuch (Law) is an impressive and an artistic work of art and its writing was directed by God. Like in most of the best literature, the central message is usually found under the surface.


In order to appreciate such a profound work of art, we must to conduct an artistic, literary analysis while considering the work of art as a whole, with all its angles and layers. We cannot understand a good story without considering the whole story and without paying attention to all the details presented by the author – especially details that may seem insignificant. This is how we need to approach the Pentateuch (Law).


We cannot ignore the dominant genre of the Pentateuch, which is narrative. The Pentateuch is first and foremost narrative – a story – and when commandments and rules do appear, they always come inaddition to the main story. The commandments are not the essence.


The problem is that we look at the Pentateuch through the eyes of the rabbis, and we might think that it is about an array of commandments that one day suddenly appeared in complete ignorance about what it is that links them together: the narrative.


See for example what Rashi (sage) said: “It was not necessary to begin the Torah (Pentateuch) except from “This month is to you, (Exodus 12:2) Which is the first commandment that the Israelites were commanded…?” Did you notice what Rashi is actually asking?


Why the doesn’t the Pentateuch start off straight away with the commandments? Why does it have all this unnecessary story at the beginning? The answer is, like most rabbis, Rashi missed the purpose of the Pentateuch. The Pentateuch is not a book of commandments that includes occasional stories, but rather the Pentateuch is a narrative that also includes commandments.


For some of you, it doesn’t sound like much of a difference, but for us this understanding explains the purpose of the Pentateuch in a completely different way. The stories in the Pentateuch create one large narrative framework, which begins with the story of creation and the Garden of Eden, and concludes with the death of Moses before conquering the Promised Land. This framework points to the unity of the Pentateuch, and helps us analyze and discover the true, central theme of the Pentateuch.

So, what is its purpose? As in any literature work of art, the opening scene is the key to understanding the rest of the story. The first scene of the Pentateuch is Creation and the Garden of Eden. In this scene, we are presented with the two central figures of the Pentateuch – God and man. Adam is the prototype of us all, of humanity. In the Garden of Eden, we are exposed to the ideal vision of God for Adam and for humanity: Man’s authority to rule over Creation. Co-existence between human-beings, and a direct relationship between human-beings and God. But the story goes downhill very quickly… Adam and Eve fail in their task, and instead of having authority over God’s Creation, the character of the snake, representing the inciter and seducer, is the one who leads them to rebel against the Creator. As a result, sin entered the world. God punished Adam and Eve and cursed them; the direct relationship between them and God, between human-beings themselves, and between man and Creation.

The next chapters continue to describe the fall of humanity. We are exposed to the first murder and to the wickedness of the human heart which climaxes during the time of Noah, when God decides to wipe out humanity and start all over with a new hero, with Noah. But just like Adam, Noah also fails, and again, we see another deterioration of humanity that climaxes at the tower of Babel. But this time, God decides to scatter humanity. This time the hero is Abraham, will he be able to conquer the effects of the original sin, and put an end to God’s curses?
The covenant with Abraham marks a turning point in the narrative of the Pentateuch (Law). If until now, there was a decline, now, Abraham and his descendants are able to fill and conquer the earth. God decides to bless Abraham and gives him the promise that through his seed, all nations and peoples in the world will be blessed.


Through his seed, will come the solution to the problem of the original sin. In Jewish thought, that one later received the name “The Messiah”. And He is the One who was prophesied of by the prophets and kings in the Old Testament. He is the greatest of all, greater than the Law, the core purpose of God, and the solution to the sinful heart of men. Even the Sages agreed, as they said: “All the prophets which have spoken have foretold the days of the Messiah.” (Talmud 1992, p. 22)

The commandments, which were meant to help the people of Israel to understand how to live in holiness, are not the purpose of the Law.


The purpose of the Law is to turn us and direct us to the One who would be the solution to the original problem of sin; to the Messiah. He is the purpose of the Law, and only through Him, our direct relationship with God can be mended and re-established.

By the way, the attempt to force the Law into the story of Creation, is also illogical and creates many contradictions, for example, according to the Sages, Adam had sex with the animals. In our opinion, this is a disgusting idea on its own, but also contradicting, after all, if Adam really knew the Law, he would have known Exodus 22:19: “Whoever lies with an animal, shall be put to death.”
To conclude, the purpose of the first five books is not the commandments, but the Messiah.

What is the Purpose of the Torah (Law)? - ONE FOR ISRAEL Ministry

Rabbi Yaakov Ades writes: “The more we know about the value of the Law and of our soul, the more strength we will have to strive and overcome in the work of the LORD. Therefore, we need to know the great value of the Law and the commandments. The Vilna Gaon explains, that the entire […]

www.oneforisrael.org

 

[David in NJ]

This proves the gospel covenant better than the Mosaical, for if it had not, there would have been no second.
For if that first covenant had been faultless: that first covenant, of which Moses was the mediator, as to the administration of it, (as to the matter of it, it was the same from Adam throughout all ages), was faulty; not because God made it, though it was a less perfect good than what succeeded it; it was able to save those who would rightly use it, and come unto Christ by it, Gal_3:24;

but accidentally, by reason of the priests’ faults, and people’s sinfulness, it became wholly ineffectual to them for saving them; therefore the blame and fault of it is charged on them, Heb_8:8.

Then should no place have been sought for the second: the question here is vehemently assertive; if that covenant in its Mosaical administration had reached effectually its end, brought all that were under it to Christ, to be saved by him, no place nor room was there, that then being so perfect, for another to succeed it, God would have rested there; but his excellent wisdom and counsel determined to put in being the second, and to set it in the place of the first, that was faulty, and which was to be abrogated by it, Gal_3:21.
Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

we are no longer under a schoolmaster; under the law as such; as no longer under it as a military guard, nor in it as a prison, so neither under it as a schoolmaster; not needing its instructions, or its discipline; since Christ is come as a prophet to teach and instruct, as a priest to atone for sin, and make intercession for transgressors, and as a King to rule and govern; in whose hands, and not in the hands of Moses, the law now is, as a rule of walk and conversation.

J.

Excellent but you came to a wrong conclusion(unless i misunderstand you) = "in whose hands, and not in the hands of Moses, the law now is, as a rule of walk and conversation."

 

[Johann]

How do you see the Law as "still standing" ?

I believe he is thinking the Ten Words is still standing--and not the ceremonial?

 

[David in NJ]

Rabbi Yaakov Ades writes: “The more we know about the value of the Law and of our soul, the more strength we will have to strive and overcome in the work of the LORD. Therefore, we need to know the great value of the Law and the commandments.

The Vilna Gaon explains, that the entire purpose of creation, the giving of the Law and the choosing of the people of Israel is that we connect to the LORD, blessed is He, and the Law is the medium, and is the most important in the world, and the entire world is nothing compared to studying the law, and compared to keeping a commandment, as nothing compares to the Law.” (Yeshiva.org.il)

We have no doubt that the biblical Law is the word of God, but from the rabbi’s words, and from what the rabbis have been saying for thousands of years, they seem to have got the impression that the commandments of the Torah (Law), are THE most important and central thing to God.


But would God agree that the commandments are the main point of these first five books?

Refuting rabbinic objections to Christianity and Jesus and Messianic Prophecies


The Sages claimed that the Law was given to Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, and that Adam was busy studying the Law all day long. Maran Hagaon Rabbi Chaim Kanievsky wrote: “Adam, the first man, studied the Law. The world was created for the Law.”


Have you ever left after watching a movie without really understanding it all? Feeling like you must have missed something, and that you only understood a fraction of the entire story? But the second time you saw the movie, suddenly you realize that the central theme of the movie, is not at all what you thought it to be. But wait a second, how is this related to the Law?

The Pentateuch (Law) is an impressive and an artistic work of art and its writing was directed by God. Like in most of the best literature, the central message is usually found under the surface.


In order to appreciate such a profound work of art, we must to conduct an artistic, literary analysis while considering the work of art as a whole, with all its angles and layers. We cannot understand a good story without considering the whole story and without paying attention to all the details presented by the author – especially details that may seem insignificant. This is how we need to approach the Pentateuch (Law).


We cannot ignore the dominant genre of the Pentateuch, which is narrative. The Pentateuch is first and foremost narrative – a story – and when commandments and rules do appear, they always come inaddition to the main story. The commandments are not the essence.


The problem is that we look at the Pentateuch through the eyes of the rabbis, and we might think that it is about an array of commandments that one day suddenly appeared in complete ignorance about what it is that links them together: the narrative.


See for example what Rashi (sage) said: “It was not necessary to begin the Torah (Pentateuch) except from “This month is to you, (Exodus 12:2) Which is the first commandment that the Israelites were commanded…?” Did you notice what Rashi is actually asking?


Why the doesn’t the Pentateuch start off straight away with the commandments? Why does it have all this unnecessary story at the beginning? The answer is, like most rabbis, Rashi missed the purpose of the Pentateuch. The Pentateuch is not a book of commandments that includes occasional stories, but rather the Pentateuch is a narrative that also includes commandments.


For some of you, it doesn’t sound like much of a difference, but for us this understanding explains the purpose of the Pentateuch in a completely different way. The stories in the Pentateuch create one large narrative framework, which begins with the story of creation and the Garden of Eden, and concludes with the death of Moses before conquering the Promised Land. This framework points to the unity of the Pentateuch, and helps us analyze and discover the true, central theme of the Pentateuch.

So, what is its purpose? As in any literature work of art, the opening scene is the key to understanding the rest of the story. The first scene of the Pentateuch is Creation and the Garden of Eden. In this scene, we are presented with the two central figures of the Pentateuch – God and man. Adam is the prototype of us all, of humanity. In the Garden of Eden, we are exposed to the ideal vision of God for Adam and for humanity: Man’s authority to rule over Creation. Co-existence between human-beings, and a direct relationship between human-beings and God. But the story goes downhill very quickly… Adam and Eve fail in their task, and instead of having authority over God’s Creation, the character of the snake, representing the inciter and seducer, is the one who leads them to rebel against the Creator. As a result, sin entered the world. God punished Adam and Eve and cursed them; the direct relationship between them and God, between human-beings themselves, and between man and Creation.

The next chapters continue to describe the fall of humanity. We are exposed to the first murder and to the wickedness of the human heart which climaxes during the time of Noah, when God decides to wipe out humanity and start all over with a new hero, with Noah. But just like Adam, Noah also fails, and again, we see another deterioration of humanity that climaxes at the tower of Babel. But this time, God decides to scatter humanity. This time the hero is Abraham, will he be able to conquer the effects of the original sin, and put an end to God’s curses?
The covenant with Abraham marks a turning point in the narrative of the Pentateuch (Law). If until now, there was a decline, now, Abraham and his descendants are able to fill and conquer the earth. God decides to bless Abraham and gives him the promise that through his seed, all nations and peoples in the world will be blessed.


Through his seed, will come the solution to the problem of the original sin. In Jewish thought, that one later received the name “The Messiah”. And He is the One who was prophesied of by the prophets and kings in the Old Testament. He is the greatest of all, greater than the Law, the core purpose of God, and the solution to the sinful heart of men. Even the Sages agreed, as they said: “All the prophets which have spoken have foretold the days of the Messiah.” (Talmud 1992, p. 22)

The commandments, which were meant to help the people of Israel to understand how to live in holiness, are not the purpose of the Law.


The purpose of the Law is to turn us and direct us to the One who would be the solution to the original problem of sin; to the Messiah. He is the purpose of the Law, and only through Him, our direct relationship with God can be mended and re-established.

By the way, the attempt to force the Law into the story of Creation, is also illogical and creates many contradictions, for example, according to the Sages, Adam had sex with the animals. In our opinion, this is a disgusting idea on its own, but also contradicting, after all, if Adam really knew the Law, he would have known Exodus 22:19: “Whoever lies with an animal, shall be put to death.”
To conclude, the purpose of the first five books is not the commandments, but the Messiah.

What is the Purpose of the Torah (Law)? - ONE FOR ISRAEL Ministry

Rabbi Yaakov Ades writes: “The more we know about the value of the Law and of our soul, the more strength we will have to strive and overcome in the work of the LORD. Therefore, we need to know the great value of the Law and the commandments. The Vilna Gaon explains, that the entire […]

www.oneforisrael.org

This is a MIX of truth and falsehood = "The Vilna Gaon explains, that the entire purpose of creation, the giving of the Law and the choosing of the people of Israel is that we connect to the LORD, blessed is He, and the Law is the medium, and is the most important in the world, and the entire world is nothing compared to studying the law, and compared to keeping a commandment, as nothing compares to the Law.” (Yeshiva.org.il)

This is Truth mixed with ERROR

 

[Johann]

Excellent but you came to a wrong conclusion(unless i misunderstand you) = "in whose hands, and not in the hands of Moses, the law now is, as a rule of walk and conversation."

In the hands of Yeshua--the nomos/entole/law of Christ--I'm in agreement with you.

 

[Johann]

This is a MIX of truth and falsehood = "The Vilna Gaon explains, that the entire purpose of creation, the giving of the Law and the choosing of the people of Israel is that we connect to the LORD, blessed is He, and the Law is the medium, and is the most important in the world, and the entire world is nothing compared to studying the law, and compared to keeping a commandment, as nothing compares to the Law.” (Yeshiva.org.il)

This is Truth mixed with ERROR

This is what is happening when you take a snippet of the post--and make a comment---and not reading the whole post, I'm in agreement with you---but am getting very tired of hearing "truth MIXED with error"

 

[David in NJ]

In the hands of Yeshua--the nomos/entole/law of Christ--I'm in agreement with you.

i do not see the Law as in the hands of Jesus - allow me a little here

My understanding in Scripture is that the Law was fulfilled by JESUS, the only Man who could.

i also see the Law as coming from Father/Son/Holy Spirit therefore it was indeed Holy but was only meant to be TEMPORARY until Christ.

TODAY, the Truth the Way and the Life is not in the Law(for it never was) but is in HE who gave the Law = CHRIST.

Some people believe that now thru Christ we can go back to the Law and fulfill it with the Holy Spirit in us.
This is a mix of Truth and Error which deceives all who are seduced by it.

Christ nailed the Law to His Body on the Cross and said = "IT is FINISHED".

The LIFE is in Christ and in His Law -which is not the OT Law.

 

[David in NJ]

This is what is happening when you take a snippet of the post--and make a comment---and not reading the whole post, I'm in agreement with you---but am getting very tired of hearing "truth MIXED with error"

be patient and we will search the Scripture together and see by the Holy Spirit = together

 

[Johann]

i do not see the Law as in the hands of Jesus - allow me a little here

My understanding in Scripture is that the Law was fulfilled by JESUS, the only Man who could.

i also see the Law as coming from Father/Son/Holy Spirit therefore it was indeed Holy but was only meant to be TEMPORARY until Christ.

TODAY, the Truth the Way and the Life is not in the Law(for it never was) but is in HE who gave the Law = CHRIST.

Some people believe that now thru Christ we can go back to the Law and fulfill it with the Holy Spirit in us.
This is a mix of Truth and Error which deceives all who are seduced by it.

Christ nailed the Law to His Body on the Cross and said = "IT is FINISHED".

The LIFE is in Christ and in His Law -which is not the OT Law.

My post is in agreement with you, but I have a question.

What was nailed to the Cross of Christ? The Law?

 

[David in NJ]

My post is in agreement with you, but I have a question.

What was nailed to the Cross of Christ? The Law?

Thank you for your patience.

YES, we are in agreement together under Christ and not under the Law - Amen

YES, Christ took the Law with it's penalties and curses upon His Body and nailed it to the Cross.
AND
because HE did not sin, death/the Law, could not hold Him in the Grave
AND
He is the Mediator of the Eternal New Covenant of Grace & Truth which was/is the Gospel Foreordained in Genesis by Elohim.

 

[Johann]

be patient and we will search the Scripture together and see by the Holy Spirit = together

I have learned, by experience, that the topic on the law brings divisions, schism's and not unity among the brethren--and what happened---a post with one or two-liners or more get's misquoted--snippets--and not reading the context of the post.

 

[David in NJ]

I have learned, by experience, that the topic on the law brings divisions, schism's and not unity among the brethren--and what happened---a post with one or two-liners or more get's misquoted--snippets--and not reading the context of the post.

i read the Post = good Post

There is a Good Godly Assertiveness of the Holy Spirit whenever the Law 'pops up' because it is very easy to be seduced by presumptions made from selective scripture that purports to say "the Law is good therefore we should keep it by adding it to faith in Christ."

This is the Trap and it is ever so subtle.

The topic of the Law does not bring about schisms among brethren = misquoting scripture does = ALWAYS on ANY subject matter.

The majority of Brethren are entangled in denominations where each one has it's quirks of shortness of Sight of the Whole Truth
which begins in Genesis.

Example: Have you ever heard Brethren say = "salvation was not available in the OT"

Relax and enjoy - there is nothing here to be impatient with

 

[Johann]

Thank you for your patience.

YES, we are in agreement together under Christ and not under the Law - Amen

YES, Christ took the Law with it's penalties and curses upon His Body and nailed it to the Cross.
AND
because HE did not sin, death/the Law, could not hold Him in the Grave
AND
He is the Mediator of the Eternal New Covenant of Grace & Truth which was/is the Gospel Foreordained in Genesis by Elohim.

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
And he hath taken it out of the way (kai ērken ek tou mesou). Perfect active indicative of airō, old and common verb, to lift up, to bear, to take away. The word used by the Baptist of Jesus as “the Lamb of God that bears away (airōn) the sin of the world” (Joh_1:29). The perfect tense emphasizes the permanence of the removal of the bond which has been paid and cancelled and cannot be presented again. Lightfoot argues for Christ as the subject of ērken, but that is not necessary, though Paul does use sudden anacolutha. God has taken the bond against us “out of the midst” (ek tou mesou).

Nailing it to the cross (prosēlōsas auto tōi staurōi). First aorist active participle of old and common verb prosēloō, to fasten with nails to a thing (with dative staurōi). Here alone in N.T., but in 3 Maccabees 4:9 with the very word staurōi. The victim was nailed to the cross as was Christ. “When Christ was crucified, God nailed the Law to His cross” (Peake). Hence the “bond” is cancelled for us. Business men today sometimes file cancelled accounts. No evidence exists that Paul alluded to such a custom here.


Nailing it to His cross (προσηλώσας αὐτὸ τῷ σταυρῷ)
Rev., the cross. The verb occurs nowhere else. The law with its decrees was abolished in Christ's death, as if crucified with Him. It was no longer in the midst, in the foreground, as a debtor's obligation is perpetually before him, embarrassing his whole life. Ignatius: “I perceived that ye were settled in unmovable faith, as if nailed (καθηλωμένους) upon the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, both in flesh and spirit” (To Smyrna, 1).

The question I'm asking--Is the 10 D'varim/words--cancelled on the Cross?