The Trinity

[amadeus]

There is no biblical requirement for any Christian to agree with each other.
I would think that there is a requirement to agree with the scriptures...

I believe we must agree with God AND that we must strive to do things His Way if we really love Him.

Must we not then also agree with God's Word? What however is God's Word?

There are definite differences in belief in what and what is not God's Word. When two or more men discuss as what the Word is, who among them, or among any men, may be an absolute arbiter making a binding decision with regard to their differences?

...Somewhere you have to draw the line between a discussion and all out attack on the Bible and Christianity.

You @Grailhunter use the word, "you", but what is the antecedent for @Grailhunter for that pronoun? My response to your declaration or command would be dependent on your antecedent. Who is the "you" that has to draw a line?

 

[amigo de christo]

Lots of people as you know do speak to a person's salvation as if they understood perfectly God's criteria.

Do people understand why David, guilty of adultery and murder, either one punishable by death according the letter of the law God gave to Moses, was shown mercy? You probably know the answer, but you need not answer it here.

God's judgments are always fair judgements... even if we cannot always understand them.

David had a heart after GOD and when His error was exposed by nathan the prophet , David actually REPENTED .

 

[Aunty Jane]

I'm not confused at all. I may be confusing to you because you fail to understand, of refuse to. But I'm fine thanks. Jesus and His Father are both God. In the highest sense. How that works I don't know which is why I don't try to explain it. But it is.

Is that "theos" (god) in Christendom's view, that God and his son and the holy spirit are all one "Godhead"? Or are you using the term "theos" in the Biblical sense, meaning "a divine mighty one", which describes all who have been given divine authority?....where Jehovah and his Son are two separate entities, and where one is clearly in the service of the other. (Acts 4:27, 30)

Both cannot be "God" without supporting polytheism. Add the holy spirit and you increase the basic error. Three gods cannot be supported in scripture from the Jewish viewpoint (Deuteronomy 6:4. Remembering that Jesus was Jewish) and Christendom does not promote the true Christian viewpoint because never once did Jesus claim to be anything but "the Son of God".....
You are right...I am confused because what you are saying is not supported by scripture.

 

[Grailhunter]

I believe we must agree with God AND that we must strive to do things His Way if we really love Him.

Must we not then also agree with God's Word? What however is God's Word?

There are definite differences in belief in what and what is not God's Word. When two or more men discuss as what the Word is, who among them, or among any men, may be an absolute arbiter making a binding decision with regard to their differences?

You @Grailhunter use the word, "you", but what is the antecedent for @Grailhunter for that pronoun? My response to your declaration or command would be dependent on your antecedent. Who is the "you" that has to draw a line?

The you is just a general "you" LOL Some people operate on the willy nilly and fussy logic of defining the reality of nothing....

But mostly the scriptures are clear. And those scriptures that are borderline....then it takes a little digging. But most of the time you can find the truth. But some people live for the fussy meanings so they can imaginatively weave together beliefs. That is just silly....But that is not the intent and effort of the Jehovah's Witnesses....they attack Christianity and the Bible on several levels.....preaching that the faith of Christianity is a lie.

But some are out to destroy faith. Christ is just a man. Why believe in just a man?
Some are comfortable with the attack on Christianity. Hey sera sera....whatever will be will be! The Bible can mean anything to anybody.....there is no truth.....Christ was just a man....Hey sera sera......
I am not!

 

[Brakelite]

and the holy spirit are all one

You brought in the holy Spirit, not me.

where Jehovah and his Son are two separate entities, and where one is clearly in the service of the other. (Acts 4:27, 30)

Should not a Son be in submission to His Father?

Both cannot be "God" without supporting polytheism.

Who says?

Add the holy spirit and you increase the basic error.

The scriptures include the holy Spirit like this....
KJV Romans 8:7-11
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

How many spirits are there?

right...I am confused because what you are saying is not supported by scripture.

Oh. So Jesus isn't the Son of God? I thought you agreed He is?

 

[Wrangler]

the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy offspring shall be called the Son of God.

If a wolf has a baby...the baby is a wolf.
If a human has a baby...the baby is human.
If God has a baby...the baby is God.

Do you realize there cannot be 3 that are the Most High God?

 

[Wrangler]

The 2nd Person of the Trinity has always existed as the WORD of God.

Clearly, you don’t realize ‘the 2nd person of the trinity’ is not in Scripture.

Your posts are compilations of doctrines not explicitly taught in Scripture on top of each other.

 

[Wrangler]

If a human has a baby...the baby is human.
If God has a baby...the baby is God.

Mary was human. By your own logic, her baby was human.

 

[APAK]

Do you realize there cannot be 3 that are the Most High God?

GodsGrace provided you with the classic unconvincing illogic argument/premise. First, she forgets that God, the Father, created the wolf and the human species. Second, she wants you to believe that God created a baby like a human adult male produces another human baby. He never did of course! He created the male sperm with his Spirit to impregnate the human mother's egg of Mariam/Mary or of a process that caused the same result. Quite a difference indeed. So her logic miserably fails...
These are just desperate failed attempts to show the Son has the same nature or essence as his Father.

 

[Aunty Jane]

You brought in the holy Spirit, not me.

Should not a Son be in submission to His Father?

You are dodging the question. Jesus is called a "servant" of his God and Father.....does one part of God serve another part of his equal self? Why does Jesus call his Father "my God" even in heaven? (Revelation 3:12) Can God have a God?

Who says?

The Bible says....'no other gods but Yahweh'....Jesus is not Yahweh...nowhere in all of scripture is Jesus ever called Yahweh.
Yahweh is called "the Most High"...from the Tanakh....
"Let them know that You-Your name alone is the Lord, Most High over all the earth. יטוְיֵֽדְע֗וּ כִּי־אַתָּ֬ה שִׁמְךָ֣ יְהֹוָ֣ה לְבַדֶּ֑ךָ עֶ֜לְי֗וֹן עַל־כָּל־הָאָֽרֶץ: (Psalm 83:18)

That means that there cannot be anyone higher or even equal.....no 'twosomes'....no 'threesomes'....just the singular God of the Bible...the one the Jews acknowledged by their Shema...
Deuteronomy 6:4...
"Hear, O Israel: The Lord is our God; the Lord is one. דשְׁמַ֖ע יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל יְהֹוָ֥ה אֱלֹהֵ֖ינוּ יְהֹוָ֥ה | אֶחָֽד:"
The "Lord" is "יְהֹוָ֥ה" (Yahweh) mentioned twice in that verse.....Jesus is not "יְהֹוָ֥ה" Yahweh.

The Jews did themselves and those that followed no favors by removing all mention of the divine name from their speech.....God's name is clearly in these texts.
Exodus 3:15 says that this was God's name "forever" and "how his name should be mentioned in every generation"....but the Jews never obeyed their God and that is why he cast them off, once his purpose in connection with them was finished, he was done with them. (Matthew 23:37-39)

The scriptures include the holy Spirit like this....
KJV Romans 8:7-11
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you."

This is a member of the elect, speaking about what it means to have the holy spirit dwell within them. It means that their choosing as part of that ruling body is confirmed by God's spirit. (Hebrews 3:1 speaks of those with the "heavenly calling", chosen to be "kings and priests" in God's Kingdom. Revelation 20:6) It will mean being freed from their sinful flesh and being given glorious spiritual bodies in order to leave this earth and dwell in heaven with their Lord. This is not speaking for all Christians because it was never in God's original purpose to take any humans to heaven....God already had a large spiritual family in heaven when he created man. He chose some "from among mankind as firstfruits" (Revelation 14:1-5) because only humans know what it is like to live in sinful flesh and will need compassionate rulers and priests to bring them back to a sinless state. Every one of them has lived as human, including their King, Jesus Christ.

How many spirits are there?

Depending on context, several. The word "spirit" in Hebrew and Greek both have the same meaning.....it can mean breath; wind; the vital force in living creatures; one’s personal spirit; spirit beings, including God and his angelic creatures; and God’s power, or holy spirit. So its not cut and dried what "spirit" means....context dictates what "spirit" is being spoken about. Do you guys do no original language word studies?

Oh. So Jesus isn't the Son of God? I thought you agreed He is?

Oh good grief...

"Son of God" isn't "God the Son"...or you may as well be Catholic if that is what you believe?

 

[Brakelite]

You are dodging the question. Jesus is called a "servant" of his God and Father.....does one part of God serve another part of his equal self? Why does Jesus call his Father "my God" even in heaven? (Revelation 3:12) Can God have a God?


The Bible says....'no other gods but Yahweh'....Jesus is not Yahweh...nowhere in all of scripture is Jesus ever called Yahweh.
Yahweh is called "the Most High"...from the Tanakh....
"Let them know that You-Your name alone is the Lord, Most High over all the earth. יטוְיֵֽדְע֗וּ כִּי־אַתָּ֬ה שִׁמְךָ֣ יְהֹוָ֣ה לְבַדֶּ֑ךָ עֶ֜לְי֗וֹן עַל־כָּל־הָאָֽרֶץ: (Psalm 83:18)

That means that there cannot be anyone higher or even equal.....no 'twosomes'....no 'threesomes'....just the singular God of the Bible...the one the Jews acknowledged by their Shema...
Deuteronomy 6:4...
"Hear, O Israel: The Lord is our God; the Lord is one. דשְׁמַ֖ע יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל יְהֹוָ֥ה אֱלֹהֵ֖ינוּ יְהֹוָ֥ה | אֶחָֽד:"
The "Lord" is "יְהֹוָ֥ה" (Yahweh) mentioned twice in that verse.....Jesus is not "יְהֹוָ֥ה" Yahweh.

The Jews did themselves and those that followed no favors by removing all mention of the divine name from their speech.....God's name is clearly in these texts.
Exodus 3:15 says that this was God's name "forever" and "how his name should be mentioned in every generation"....but the Jews never obeyed their God and that is why he cast them off, once his purpose in connection with them was finished, he was done with them. (Matthew 23:37-39)



This is a member of the elect, speaking about what it means to have the holy spirit dwell within them. It means that their choosing as part of that ruling body is confirmed by God's spirit. (Hebrews 3:1 speaks of those with the "heavenly calling", chosen to be "kings and priests" in God's Kingdom. Revelation 20:6) It will mean being freed from their sinful flesh and being given glorious spiritual bodies in order to leave this earth and dwell in heaven with their Lord. This is not speaking for all Christians because it was never in God's original purpose to take any humans to heaven....God already had a large spiritual family in heaven when he created man. He chose some "from among mankind as firstfruits" (Revelation 14:1-5) because only humans know what it is like to live in sinful flesh and will need compassionate rulers and priests to bring them back to a sinless state. Every one of them has lived as human, including their King, Jesus Christ.


Depending on context, several. The word "spirit" in Hebrew and Greek both have the same meaning.....it can mean breath; wind; the vital force in living creatures; one’s personal spirit; spirit beings, including God and his angelic creatures; and God’s power, or holy spirit. So its not cut and dried what "spirit" means....context dictates what "spirit is being spoken about. Do you guys do no original language word studies?


Oh good grief...

"Son of God" isn't "God the Son"...or you may as well be Catholic if that is what you believe?

In other words, the Son of God somehow is a different species to His Father. Okay, thank you for your clarification.

 

[Aunty Jane]

In other words, the Son of God somehow is a different species to His Father. Okay, thank you for your clarification.

C'mon Backlit, you are above this kind of response surely...?
Can you not address the post or are you smoke screening.....?

"A different species" seriously?

 

[Davy]

With all of the details you possess... if they are not used by you correctly in the eyes of God how important ultimately are they?

What good are words and details even from the scriptures for anyone who does not understand them? Will not God give any needed understanding to a heart that is hungry and thirsty for His righteousness?

"Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled." Matt 5:6

What does your reasoning have to do with what I showed from the Ezekiel 9 chapter about that 'mark' those were sealed from God with? If you don't understand that, then it likely means you don't understand the sealing of Revelation 7 and 9 for the end either. Satan has a mark for the end, but so does The LORD GOD for His servants at the end of this world.

 

[Davy]

What religion was Jesus? Were the Hebrew scriptures in error, or was it the Pharisees interpretation that was faulty?

Oh now that is truly... a funny question. It can easily be seen The Gospel Books Jesus REBUKING the religious leaders of the Jews (Pharisees and scribes) because of THEIR false religion they created.

Following what God gave to Israel through Moses PRIOR to the Jew's captivity to pagan Babylon is one thing, its own era.

But the time DURING and AFTER the Jew's captivity in Babylon, when they allowed corruptions by the Canaanites, taking wives of the Canaanites and having children by them, changing the Hebrew written language, creating the Babylonian Talmud which the Jews then began to use OVER and ABOVE much of God's written Word, that was another later era, and the RESULT of that latter era with Israel's religious leaders ADDING 'their' many traditions THEY created, is WHY Lord Jesus rebuked them. They weren't actually keeping to much of God's Word anymore then, they were following THEIR religious system of men they created.

Obviously, you have failed to understand this, and live in a dream that orthodox Jews have created. The Gospel of Jesus Christ can be found in just about every Book of The Old Testament, and the leaders of the Jews that sought to murder Jesus didn't know that? Yeah, they knew who He is, which is why they sought all the more to kill Him, because like Jesus showed in John 8, those religious leaders of the Jews were not born of... Israel. They were foreigners of the Canaanite nations, like the leftovers in Solomon's day that became bondservants to the Levites. They were also known as Nethinims. By the time of Lord Jesus' 1st coming, the stage was set with those false crept in unaware foreigners that sat in Moses' seat. Jesus had to die on the cross to fulfill God's Salvation Plan.

And if that isn't enough, one can also go through what Apostle Paul showed about the "Jew's religion", and he was once a Pharisee and a strong follower of their traditions, hunting down Christians to bring to Jerusalem for trial, before Jesus converted him on the road to Damascus.

 

[Davy]

Christendom's doctrines are against everything Jesus taught, because again we have the misinterpretation of scripture twisting all that the NT teaches. But like the Jews of the first century who fought against all that Jesus taught from their own scripture, there is that 'blindness' again that doesn't let the light shine through. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4) It only affects "unbelievers"....so who are these I wonder?

Just that false statement in bold above ought... to be enough to get you banned from this forum, especially since this is a CHRISTIAN FORUM, and not a JUDAISM forum.

 

[Davy]

Since this belief rests on what God told Moses in Exodus 3:13-15, let's read that from the Jewish Tanakh and see what it says instead of the unreliable KJV.....the Jews should be able to interpret Hebrew...it is their language after all....
....

Once again you only stray... off topic to TRY and show your support of the religion of Judaism, and NOT Christianity. You well know... that Jesus used God's sacred name I AM in John 8 to reveal that He is God. There is no need to try and teach lessons of how to say THE I AM in Hebrew, for that does NOT change what Jesus said in John 8 one iota.

Ex 3:13-14
13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is His name? what shall I say unto them?

14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and He said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
KJV

 

[GodsGrace]

Just that false statement in bold above ought... to be enough to get you banned from this forum, especially since this is a CHRISTIAN FORUM, and not a JUDAISM forum.

No time to post right now...
But I'm reading thru a little and find In @Aunty Jane a strong dislike for Christianity.

Christianity, which has been around for 2,000 years is not teaching what is biblical,,,,which bible was made by Christian's. (The NT).

But what a few men teach, beginning 150 years ago,
I guess They teach the true meanings of the NT !

It would be funny were it not so sad.

 

[Davy]

No time to post right now...
But I'm reading thru a little and find In @Aunty Jane a strong dislike for Christianity.

Christianity, which has been around for 2,000 years is not teaching what is biblical,,,,which bible was made by Christian's. (The NT).

But what a few men teach, beginning 150 years ago,
I guess They teach the true meanings of the NT !

It would be funny were it not so sad.

The word Christendom covers the whole history of Christianity. So it's not a word to use to represent false prophets that sneak into pulpits. It is a positive meaning word applied to the 'faithful' in Christianity, not to those who fall away or teach contrary to Christian Doctrine.

There are orthodox Jews on this forum, in case you're not aware. They don't believe on Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ, they heed the orthodox Jew's religion called Judaism. Even among Christ's Church also are Jewish fence riders, those who can't seem to make up their mind whether they want to follow the Jew's religion, or follow The Gospel of Jesus Christ. They will say they believe on Jesus (and probably mean it), but then turn around and push a doctrine from Judaism that is totally against Christian Doctrine in The New Testament.

Furthermore, another way to recognize them here is how they tend to not recognize many New Testament Scriptures. True Christians are well familiar with The Gospel Books and most of The New Testament Books, but not the Old Testament Books. Other way around for the Jews stuck when it comes to recognizing Jesus as God, and The Gospel Message via His Apostles.

 

[Brakelite]

C'mon Backlit, you are above this kind of response surely...?
Can you not address the post or are you smoke screening.....?

"A different species" seriously?

Yes absolutely seriously. If Jesus, the only begotten Son of God wasn't God, then what was He?

 

[Wrangler]

These are just desperate failed attempts to show the Son has the same nature or essence as his Father.

It smacks of everything is God. God created the Son, so that makes him God. Well, God created everything, so that makes everything and everyone, God as well by that logic.

But notice the transparent work around. Rather than refer to the man Jesus - by the way, there are many verses in Scripture that explicitly call him the man AND not one verse that refers to Jesus as the God Jesus - as the son, she starts with her doctrinal pronouncement ‘the second person of the trinity.’

This is tacit proof the trinity cannot be demonstrated through Scripture but has to be accepted at the start.