The TRUE Meaning Of The Little Horn Prophecy For the End

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Timtofly

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Now, let's find out if the Early Church Fathers were Historicists like me or Jesuit Futurists like Davy:
So why have historist not figured out that at the Reformation the first 5 kingdoms were no longer a factor? We have been in the 6th head of the 7 headed dragon in Revelation, and Daniel 2 nor much of Daniel applies to us at all.

At the time of the Reformation was when the stone/church in Christ destroyed all of those 5 kingdoms and none of them have been relevant from that century on. Not even Rome nor the papacy have any say today. No king nor kingdom is going to step forward, until after the Second Coming. At the Second Coming, Satan is going to resurrect the 6th head, from the mortal wound. But Jesus is on earth with all the angels, and take the life out of even that kingdom by the 7th Trumpet.
 

Phoneman777

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So why have historist not figured out that at the Reformation the first 5 kingdoms were no longer a factor? We have been in the 6th head of the 7 headed dragon in Revelation, and Daniel 2 nor much of Daniel applies to us at all.

At the time of the Reformation was when the stone/church in Christ destroyed all of those 5 kingdoms and none of them have been relevant from that century on. Not even Rome nor the papacy have any say today. No king nor kingdom is going to step forward, until after the Second Coming. At the Second Coming, Satan is going to resurrect the 6th head, from the mortal wound. But Jesus is on earth with all the angels, and take the life out of even that kingdom by the 7th Trumpet.
Historicists have always seen the the papacy as the Beast of Revelation 13, as well as the "whore riding the beast" representing the papacy, which is the "church controlling the state".
 

Jay Ross

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The bible does not say anything about the little horn/false prophet being imprisoned in the bottomless pit.

But the Book of Revelation does tell us this about where the False prophet comes up from: -

Rev 13:11 -12: - 11Then I saw another beast rising out of the earth. This beast had two horns like a lamb, but spoke like a dragon. 12And this beast exercised all the authority of the first beast and caused the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose mortal wound had been healed.

We are also told that the beast also come up out of the Abyss

Rev 17:8a: - 8The beast that you saw—it was, and now is no more, but is about to come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction.

Now where we are very different, is that I believe that Satan, the beast and the False Prophet/Little Horn are all fallen heavenly hosts, i.e., angels and have no connection to being human at all. Because of this Isaiah 24:21-22 tells us that the judged heavenly hosts will be imprisoned in a cistern/pit in the ground, and since Satan is also imprisoned with the beast and the False prophet in a pit, and in Rev 20:1-3 we are told that Satan is locked up in the Bottomless pit for 1000 years, then since they are all imprisoned at the same time in the same pit and that pit was locked after Satan was also imprisoned there, then the judged heavenly hosts and the judged kings of the earth are also locked up in the Bottomless pit.

Jay, we are so far apart on eschatology, and what you write is I can see no rationale in it, I think I should probably just not waste my energy in trying to convince you otherwise.

That would be a wise solution on your part to not present what you post as being the "Gospel Truth." Since I am not the only one making this suggestion to you, then any further posts about your crazy end time understanding perhaps should not be posted at all.

Goodbye
 

Douggg

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Now where we are very different, is that I believe that Satan, the beast and the False Prophet/Little Horn are all fallen heavenly hosts, i.e., angels and have no connection to being human at all.
Revelation 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
 

Jay Ross

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Revelation 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Jay, we are so far apart on eschatology, and what you write is I can see no rationale in it, I think I should probably just not waste my energy in trying to convince you otherwise.

Why are you persisting?
 

Timtofly

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Simple:

Daniel says the AoD happens after Messiah the Prince arrives and is rejected.

Antiochus' pig BBQ happened before Messiah arrived. Right or wrong?

Again, Daniel says the AoD happens after Messiah the Prince arrives.

Right or wrong?

You can read from Genesis to Revelation an not find a single "gap" in any "Numerically Specific Time Prophecy" nor any angel declaring such:

Noah preached 120 years, no gaps
Israel was captive in Egypt 400 years, no gaps
Israel wandered 40 years, no gaps
Elijah's famine lasted 3 1/2 years, no gaps
Ezekiel laid on his side for ten days, no gaps
Israel was captive in Babylon 70 years, no gaps

God doesn't need "gaps" to make His prophecies fit - only Jesuit ideas require that.

What angel and what "gap"???

I read that Jesus is "God" and Jesus is "man" but never that He's "a 70th week".

No, I said Jesus is in the Heavenly Sanctuary and in 1844 He moved from the Holy Place to the Most Holy Place and began to "cleanse the sanctuary" in fulfillment of the prophecy in Daniel 8.

You can't point to a single post where I said that, friend.

Zechariah 14 will not be fulfilled by those now occupy that small speck that is all that's left of the ancient land of Israel.

The church will fulfill these prophecies, according to Romans 15.

You're not sticking to the prophetic timeline which relies on our understanding of the OT sanctuary so that we can understand the significance of where Jesus stands in sanctuary in Revelation - because if He's in the Holy Place, those prophecies begin unfolding before 1844 - including the Trumpets - and if He's seen in the Most Holy Place cleansing the sanctuary, those prophecies unfold after 1844.

Daniel never says "the prince of the Earth" will come.

He says "Messiah the Prince" will come and "the Prince that shall come".
Daniel 9:27 is not the Abomination of Desolation that is set up fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes.

"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

Jesus is not setting up an Abomination of Desolation. Daniel 8:13-14

"Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."

This is not talking about what Gabriel said in Daniel 9:27. This is the prophecy and 2300 days fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes. So when Jesus referred to Hanukkah as the fulfilled prophecy, He was warning about Satan doing a similar thing after the 7th Trumpet started to sound. This is in the midst of a week of days, not years. Daniel 8 was the fulfilled prophecy, those listening on the Mount of Olives, already understood, that the reader would not, but would have to figure out from history. Daniel 9:27 has not been fulfilled, and may be fulfilled the week of the 7th Trumpet.

Daniel 9 has three gaps mentioned in the prophecied 70 weeks. A gap after 7 weeks, a gap after 62 weeks and a gap when Jesus is cut of as Messiah. The word "gap" does not have to be placed explicitly in Scripture.

God does not need historical data to force contrived human opinion into His Word. The wilderness 40 years was a punishment. Nothing changed in history during the 400 years in Egypt. That was the time given to Ishmael to become a great nation, and a delayed form of punishment to Isaac, and Jacob, because of Abraham and Hagar. Noah did not preach 120 years, nor was the 120 years a prophetic time frame. Humans who were created to live forever, now were only allowed to live for 120 years.

Your 2300 years is more contrived than me saying 7 weeks and 62 weeks allowed for gaps in the 70 week "event" you dictate has to be continuous. It was not 70 continuous weeks, because it was one 7 week period and another 62 week period, and that only equals 69. No 70th week was ever defined as years but as the ministry of Jesus as 3.5 years being Messiah, cut off, and the 3.5 years as the Prince to come. The last half after the Second Coming. Your 2300 days was fulfilled at the time of Antiochus Epiphanes, and known as Hanukkah. Jesus has not yet returned as Prince.
 

Timtofly

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Historicists have always seen the the papacy as the Beast of Revelation 13, as well as the "whore riding the beast" representing the papacy, which is the "church controlling the state".
They have been wrong since the Reformation then. Revelation is about the Second Coming, not history unfolding for 2,000 years. The past happened 400 years ago. Revelation is hardly about an apostate church controlling the state. That is about as bad as preterist who think Nero was the AC.

The book of Revelation is the relationship between Israel/Jerusalem, and the governments of the world influenced by Satan. Satan having 100% control over Jerusalem and the world for 42 months is the Abomination of Desolation.

The papacy was probably a bunch of antichrist, as Jesus already stated that would be part of general tribulation, ie those days from the time He ascended into heaven, until He returned as Prince.
 

Phoneman777

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Daniel 9:27 is not the Abomination of Desolation that is set up fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes.
You guys want Antiochus to fit so bad, but you just can't find any OT "pig BBQ" prophecy to attribute to him.
Jesus is not setting up an Abomination of Desolation. Daniel 8:13-14
It's being set up by apostates in our midst, as in the case of Ezekiel 8. Antiochus was no apostate.
This is the prophecy and 2300 days fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes.
So, we'll turn the 490 days into years but leave the 2300 days as days? That's eschatologically inconsistent.
The word "gap" does not have to be placed explicitly in Scripture.
A gap is neither explicit nor implied. Daniel's chronological landmarks are not chronological interruptions.
God does not need historical data to force contrived human opinion into His Word.
Neither does he need rubber bands in His prophecies to force contrived "gaps" into His word.
The wilderness 40 years was a punishment. Nothing changed in history during the 400 years in Egypt. That was the time given to Ishmael to become a great nation, and a delayed form of punishment to Isaac, and Jacob, because of Abraham and Hagar. Noah did not preach 120 years, nor was the 120 years a prophetic time frame. Humans who were created to live forever, now were only allowed to live for 120 years.
So, you admit there isn't a single Numerically Specific Time Prophecy in all of Scripture that contains a "gap", right? So why insert an unprecedented gap in Daniel 9 when we have Protestant Historicism?
Your 2300 years is more contrived than me saying 7 weeks and 62 weeks allowed for gaps in the 70 week "event" you dictate has to be continuous.
I started at 457 B.C. and counted 2300 years to 1844. How is that contrived?
It was not 70 continuous weeks, because it was one 7 week period and another 62 week period, and that only equals 69. No 70th week was ever defined as years but as the ministry of Jesus as 3.5 years being Messiah, cut off, and the 3.5 years as the Prince to come.
Absolutely was. It says and He shall confirm the covenant (of salvation) for one "week" (the 70th week) and in the midst of the "week" (the 70th week) he shall cause the sacrifices and oblations to cease.

The 69th ended and the 70th immediately followed when Jesus walked out the Jordan and began His 3 1/2 year ministry, then was crucified and caused the earthly sanctuary to come to an end.
The last half after the Second Coming. Your 2300 days was fulfilled at the time of Antiochus Epiphanes, and known as Hanukkah. Jesus has not yet returned as Prince.
I've shown you that the 2300 are "years" just as the 490 are "years", so A E IV had nothing to do with the 2300, which was fulfilled in 1844 when Jesus left the Holy Place and entered the Most Holy Place.

Prophecy is Christ-centered, not Antichrist nor Antiochus-centered.
 

Phoneman777

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They have been wrong since the Reformation then. Revelation is about the Second Coming, not history unfolding for 2,000 years.
Yes, things which must "shortly come to pass" means "won't happen until Christ sneaks into town and sneaks out with the church", right?
The past happened 400 years ago. Revelation is hardly about an apostate church controlling the state. That is about as bad as preterist who think Nero was the AC.
Now that's rich. Don't you realize that both Preterism and your Futurism are JESUIT ideas that were concocted as "damage control" to the massive hemorrhage of catholic faithful who heard the truth of Protestant Historicism and abandoned the papacy?

Never understood why an institution that's never gained a proper position on the purest milk doctrine of all - "salvation by grace through faith" - is somehow trusted implicitly when it comes to the meat of eschatology.
The book of Revelation is the relationship between Israel/Jerusalem, and the governments of the world influenced by Satan.
Since the church alone qualifies as "the Israel of God" and "Abraham's Seed" and "heirs to the promise" then Protestant Historicism is absolutely spot on.
Satan having 100% control over Jerusalem and the world for 42 months is the Abomination of Desolation.

The papacy was probably a bunch of antichrist, as Jesus already stated that would be part of general tribulation, ie those days from the time He ascended into heaven, until He returned as Prince.
I'm not sure what prophetic timeline you're using, but I'd suggest you start in Daniel 2 and use that as a template instead of what seems to be a raffle tumbler filled with eschatological excerpts.
 

Timtofly

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So, you admit there isn't a single Numerically Specific Time Prophecy in all of Scripture that contains a "gap", right? So why insert an unprecedented gap in Daniel 9 when we have Protestant Historicism?
Gabriel inserted the gaps. Ask Gabriel why you are wrong.

Where in the wording of Daniel 9 does it say 490 days?

You are all about history except for Hanukkah.
 

Timtofly

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Yes, things which must "shortly come to pass" means "won't happen until Christ sneaks into town and sneaks out with the church", right?

Now that's rich. Don't you realize that both Preterism and your Futurism are JESUIT ideas that were concocted as "damage control" to the massive hemorrhage of catholic faithful who heard the truth of Protestant Historicism and abandoned the papacy?

Never understood why an institution that's never gained a proper position on the purest milk doctrine of all - "salvation by grace through faith" - is somehow trusted implicitly when it comes to the meat of eschatology.

Since the church alone qualifies as "the Israel of God" and "Abraham's Seed" and "heirs to the promise" then Protestant Historicism is absolutely spot on.

I'm not sure what prophetic timeline you're using, but I'd suggest you start in Daniel 2 and use that as a template instead of what seems to be a raffle tumbler filled with eschatological excerpts.
Why are you labeling me apostate futurism?

Because I don't agree with your interpretation?

I don't even know what the Jesuit taught futurism you are talking about entails, except that you claim something or something else so vague you don't make any sense.

Is the Second Coming future? Is that an apostate teaching?

Strange you should call God's Word a raffle tumbler, but ok? You deny some history, but choose other history, then have your own personal timeline about 1844, then you call verses from Scripture some lottery by chance fulfillment?

Since you have your own apostate protestant views from human theologians, I guess Scripture can get confusing after a while, no? The Reformation was necessary, but taking erroneous theology and changing Scripture is also just as harmful as Jesuit eschatology.

I don't hold to any tenants of man's eschatology that changes Scripture to make it work.

Daniel 2 is the first 5 heads of the dragon (Revelation 12), the sea beast (Revelation 13), and the scarlet beast (Revelation 17). That is all the template I need. 5 have fallen getting us to the Reformation. The 6th one is mortally wounded, and won't be healed until after the Second Coming. Satan is of the 7, but not the 7th Kingdom. Satan is the 8th kingdom. So, if you can find a dead beast and Satan in Daniel, you have figured out the book of Revelation from Daniel. Otherwise as a historist, the past is over. Nothing in Daniel will fit the Second Coming narrative that Revelation covers.

I am not even going to argue about the rights or wrongs about how the Catholic church fulfilled prophecy. It is pointless.
 

Phoneman777

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Gabriel inserted the gaps. Ask Gabriel why you are wrong.
Gabriel spoke nothing of any gaps - it's those who wrongly interpret prophecy who insert them to give the appearance of functionality to that which is irreparably damaged.
Where in the wording of Daniel 9 does it say 490 days?
70 Weeks = 490 days...which you make "years" in order to stretch down from the king's decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem to Messiah's first advent....but then insist the 2300 days are days only. Pretty inconsistent.
You are all about history except for Hanukkah.
Look the only "gaps" in Daniel 9 are in the minds of those who would never return to work at 2 from their noon lunch hour and tell their furious boss, "Boss, there's a ONE HOUR GAP between 12:59 and 1:00."
 

Davy

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Jesuit Futurists are waiting for the rise of a future antichrist during the "7 last years (or 3 1/2 years) of tribulation".
No, the Orthodox Jews are waiting for the future Antichrist that will appear in Jerusalem and claim to be The Christ. And what's the word the Jews use for The Christ, "Messiah" is it? That's also the word Jesus Himself used for the coming Antichrist.
 

Phoneman777

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No, the Orthodox Jews are waiting for the future Antichrist that will appear in Jerusalem and claim to be The Christ. And what's the word the Jews use for The Christ, "Messiah" is it? That's also the word Jesus Himself used for the coming Antichrist.
Jesuit Francisco Ribera would like a word with you. He's the one who put together the whole idea of a "last 7 years of tribulation"in which the "future antichrist" would come and sit in a rebuilt temple "of God" and broker a peace "covenant" between the Arabs and Jews before breaking the covenant "in the middle of it" which results in Armageddon.

The whole idea was unknown to the world, as well as to the ECFs, until the 16th century:
 

Douggg

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Jesuit Francisco Ribera would like a word with you. He's the one who put together the whole idea of a "last 7 years of tribulation"in which the "future antichrist" would come and sit in a rebuilt temple "of God" and broker a peace "covenant" between the Arabs and Jews before breaking the covenant "in the middle of it" which results in Armageddon.
It is not a peace covenant that will be confirmed for 7 years, but the Mt. Sinai covenant confirmed in keeping with the law that Moses made in Deuteronomy 31:9-13.

What results in Armageddon is that the world will see the sign of the Son of Man in heaven - which will be Jesus, sickle in hand. And the kings of the earth assemble their armies at Armageddon in hopes of keeping Jesus from executing judgment on them.

Do you have a copy of a timeline chart made by Ribera ?
 

Phoneman777

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It is not a peace covenant that will be confirmed for 7 years, but the Mt. Sinai covenant confirmed in keeping with the law that Moses made in Deuteronomy 31:9-13.
Pretty sure they observed that every 7 years as part of the OC - the same OC which was nailed to the Cross and is no more forever.
What results in Armageddon is that the world will see the sign of the Son of Man in heaven - which will be Jesus, sickle in hand. And the kings of the earth assemble their armies at Armageddon in hopes of keeping Jesus from executing judgment on them.

Do you have a copy of a timeline chart made by Ribera ?
I don't know if he ever constructed a timeline, but what I've written is based on his conclusions about Bible prophecy.
 

Douggg

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I don't know if he ever constructed a timeline, but what I've written is based on his conclusions about Bible prophecy.
If the Jesuits are the founders of the futurist view of eschatology, don't you think that at Jesuit sites there would be timeline charts of the final seven years before Jesus returns ?
 
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covenantee

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If the Jesuits are the founders of the futurist view of eschatology, don't you think that at Jesuit sites there would timeline charts of the final seven years before Jesus returns ?
Who in the entirety of Scripture ever produced a timeline chart?
 

Davy

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Revelation 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Well, since those who love the old Reformer's doctrines that failed in the 16th century with their claim of a pope being the Antichrist, and apply Jewish Gematria to various pope titles, might as well just continue that application to a pope with the number 666 too, right? Doing that is nothing but confusion.

The 666 of Rev.13 is about that "another beast", a singular false-Christ that is to come at the end of this world working the great signs, wonders, and miracles that Jesus warned us about. That false one is to come on the 6th Seal, 6th Trumpet, and 6th Vial (666). It's as easy as that.

But oh how the Jews love their Numerology sandbox, and love to treat 666 as a secret cipher, when the actual answer is right there in the Scripture timing of the seals, trumpets, and vials, staring them right in the face!