The Truth of Genesis

[Eternally Grateful]

People were alive 6,000 years ago.

Yeah they were. Sadly we have no writings or people who were alive back then to tell us how thing were back then. All we can do is guess.

No, whether or not the agree with me doesn't enter into it.


At least I explained my reasoning.

Thats what you claim. But as with everything else, I disagree

 

[Justadude]

Yeah they were. Sadly we have no writings or people who were alive back then to tell us how thing were back then. All we can do is guess.

No, we can do more than just sit in a room and make up guesses.

Thats what you claim. But as with everything else, I disagree

So you're going to disagree with everything I say. Okay.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

No, we can do more than just sit in a room and make up guesses.

True, but we still have to admit out limitations, and not just assume something we can’t prove

 

[Justadude]

True, but we still have to admit out limitations, and not just assume something we can’t prove

That's why scientists don't just sit in rooms making things up. They collect data, do tests, conduct analyses, and draw their conclusions from that. Another way to put it, they do science.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

When it came to Christian leaders, they said they did know. It was when I asked them how they knew that I got the faith-based and magical/holy spirit type answers.


The first thing that comes to my mind when I see that is how circular it is. I have to believe first and then the belief will make sense? I think I covered this at CB before so I'll just repeat what I said then. Why should I do that with Christianity and not all the other religions? Why shouldn't I just start believing in Mormonism or Hinduism?

That's why scientists don't just sit in rooms making things up. They collect data, do tests, conduct analyses, and draw their conclusions from that. Another way to put it, they do science.

"Mormonism" is a branch of Christianity just like Catholicism or Protestantism. - written by a "Mormon" scientist.

Faith is similar to a scientific test in several ways: you experiment on the Word, observe results, repeat many times, and move from there.
It is different in that faith is an individual thing, versus something you can publish in a scientific paper. Just like any other relationship.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That's why scientists don't just sit in rooms making things up. They collect data, do tests, conduct analyses, and draw their conclusions from that. Another way to put it, they do science.

Data is useless if you have no starting point

if you were not there 6000 years ago, you have no starting point, you have to guess,

all science is based on known principles. If the basic principles are unknown, all we have is guesses.

 

[Justadude]

"Mormonism" is a branch of Christianity just like Catholicism or Protestantism. - written by a "Mormon" scientist.

Joseph Smith wasn't a scientist.

Faith is similar to a scientific test in several ways: you experiment on the Word, observe results, repeat many times, and move from there.
It is different in that faith is an individual thing, versus something you can publish in a scientific paper. Just like any other relationship.

Very true. Faith is very different for sure.

 

[Justadude]

Data is useless if you have no starting point

if you were not there 6000 years ago, you have no starting point, you have to guess,

all science is based on known principles. If the basic principles are unknown, all we have is guesses.

I'll repeat, I'm content to let scientists decide for themselves what they can study.

 

[reformed1689]

"Mormonism" is a branch of Christianity just like Catholicism or Protestantism.

No

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Joseph Smith wasn't a scientist.

Very true. Faith is very different for sure.

I was referring to me

Both involve testing something out, observing results, crafting ideas, and then rinse & repeat. That core is the same.

 

[Justadude]

I was referring to me

Okay, sorry about that.

Both involve testing something out, observing results, crafting ideas, and then rinse & repeat. That core is the same.

Not in my experience. For example, in the church I grew up attending they would sometimes anoint people with oil and lay hands when they got sick. A lot of the times all that happened was the pathogen spread to everyone else. But the pastor and other leaders never once changed or adjusted based on those results, they just kept on doing the same thing and getting people sick.

I remember talking to my dad about it and he said prayer and faith in Jesus was more powerful than any virus. When I said that obviously wasn't the case since not only didn't people get healed, more people got sick, he criticized me for my lack of faith.

The same thing happened with all sorts of other things they would pray for or seek God's intervention on. It never once occurred to anyone that what they were doing wasn't effective, probably because they had unshakable faith.

That's not like science in any way.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I'll repeat, I'm content to let scientists decide for themselves what they can study.

That’s fine

I am Content to question what they say in certain cases. In fact I think we all should

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Okay, sorry about that.


Not in my experience. For example, in the church I grew up attending they would sometimes anoint people with oil and lay hands when they got sick. A lot of the times all that happened was the pathogen spread to everyone else. But the pastor and other leaders never once changed or adjusted based on those results, they just kept on doing the same thing and getting people sick.

I remember talking to my dad about it and he said prayer and faith in Jesus was more powerful than any virus. When I said that obviously wasn't the case since not only didn't people get healed, more people got sick, he criticized me for my lack of faith.

The same thing happened with all sorts of other things they would pray for or seek God's intervention on. It never once occurred to anyone that what they were doing wasn't effective, probably because they had unshakable faith.

That's not like science in any way.

This is not the norm

this is the extreme. And not from God

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Okay, sorry about that.


Not in my experience. For example, in the church I grew up attending they would sometimes anoint people with oil and lay hands when they got sick. A lot of the times all that happened was the pathogen spread to everyone else. But the pastor and other leaders never once changed or adjusted based on those results, they just kept on doing the same thing and getting people sick.

I remember talking to my dad about it and he said prayer and faith in Jesus was more powerful than any virus. When I said that obviously wasn't the case since not only didn't people get healed, more people got sick, he criticized me for my lack of faith.

The same thing happened with all sorts of other things they would pray for or seek God's intervention on. It never once occurred to anyone that what they were doing wasn't effective, probably because they had unshakable faith.

That's not like science in any way.

That church would not remotely e scientific, and I have a major problems with what you're describing.

But others aren't that way.

Going with the example of viruses: my church is not congregating right now, specifically to prevent the spread of disease. There is belief in anointing and blessing the sick, but obviously you should take standard hygiene practices every step of the way. Also, a person not being healed doesn't automatically mean "you lack faith!". Rather, it means that God is not a vending machine: don't treat it as "I put X in I automatically deserve Y out right now". Rather, God is a parent, and sees a much bigger picture than us.

Zooming out to faith in general: you shouldn't believe anything just because a random person told you. Especially not something as important as faith. Rather experiment on God's words: test it, develop understanding, test again, etc.

 

[Justadude]

That’s fine

I am Content to question what they say in certain cases. In fact I think we all should

I hope before you do that you first make an effort to understand what you're questioning.

This is not the norm

this is the extreme. And not from God

Not only are you an expert in science, you're an expert in knowing God?

 

[Justadude]

That church would not remotely e scientific, and I have a major problems with what you're describing.

But others aren't that way.

I see the same thing all over Christianity right now (Christians trying to pray away the virus).

Going with the example of viruses: my church is not congregating right now, specifically to prevent the spread of disease. There is belief in anointing and blessing the sick, but obviously you should take standard hygiene practices every step of the way.

That's good, but notice that those practices come from medical science, not from any divine revelation or pronouncement from a religious figure.

Also, a person not being healed doesn't automatically mean "you lack faith!". Rather, it means that God is not a vending machine: don't treat it as "I put X in I automatically deserve Y out right now". Rather, God is a parent, and sees a much bigger picture than us.

Then why are Christians all over the country praying for God to intervene in things?

Zooming out to faith in general: you shouldn't believe anything just because a random person told you. Especially not something as important as faith. Rather experiment on God's words: test it, develop understanding, test again, etc.

I don't believe things just because a random person tells me, and I honestly don't know what you mean by experimenting on God's words.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

That's good, but notice that those practices come from medical science, not from any divine revelation or pronouncement from a religious figure.

Who said those have to be opposed to each other?
The standard medical practices were just standard.
The human leader of my church right now is was a world-leading doctor for many years, leaving to serve full-time at church.
The decision to not congregate was made before the outbreak reached it's current cancel-everything status.

Then why are Christians all over the country praying for God to intervene in things?

I'm not going to pretend to speak for some masse of people. I only speak for me.

I don't believe things just because a random person tells me, and I honestly don't know what you mean by experimenting on God's words.

Just like you run any other experiment.

 

[Justadude]

Who said those have to be opposed to each other?
The standard medical practices were just standard.
The human leader of my church right now is was a world-leading doctor for many years, leaving to serve full-time at church.
The decision to not congregate was made before the outbreak reached it's current cancel-everything status.

I didn't mean they were in opposition. I was noting how when it comes to effective action during a pandemic, medical science provides tangible, useful information and guidelines that actually work, which is very unlike what comes from religion.

I'm not going to pretend to speak for some masse of people. I only speak for me.

That's fair. But I hope you appreciate how if you tell me one thing (God isn't like a vending machine) and I see lots of other Christians doing the opposite (praying for God to intervene for their benefit), I tend to see that as one more indication that it's all just made up and no one really knows.

Just like you run any other experiment.

I don't see how that can be. In an experiment you control variables, have control groups, and subject the object of your experiment to testing. I don't see any gods volunteering to be experimented on.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Yeah they were. Sadly we have no writings or people who were alive back then to tell us how thing were back then. All we can do is guess.

That's what you claim. But as with everything else, I disagree

Actually, archaeological evidence shows that people migrated to the Americas 20,000 years ago. That puts the cat among the pigeons for those who put a strict 6,000 year time frame on the history of mankind.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I didn't mean they were in opposition. I was noting how when it comes to effective action during a pandemic, medical science provides tangible, useful information and guidelines that actually work, which is very unlike what comes from religion.

Rather, no use that you see

That's fair. But I hope you appreciate how if you tell me one thing (God isn't like a vending machine) and I see lots of other Christians doing the opposite (praying for God to intervene for their benefit), I tend to see that as one more indication that it's all just made up and no one really knows.

Again, I can only answer for me.

I don't see how that can be. In an experiment you control variables, have control groups, and subject the object of your experiment to testing. I don't see any gods volunteering to be experimented on.

If you want want an experiment in a scientific journal, that's what you need.

However, we as human beings run lots of experiments that do not follow such rigid methodology. An individual's experiences would be one such example. A person goes, tries something out, observes the results, rinse & repeat. But there's no rigid controlled environment or alternative test groups.