The Two Witnesses

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Jay Ross

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Hello

From my understanding of the the event where there will be two witnesses in Jerusalem, who will be killed by the "beast" and then rise again, this event cannot happen until the Bottomless Pit is unlocked after the passing of the prophesied 1000 years years of The Bottomless pit being locked.

Since The heavenly hosts in heaven have not been judged yet in heaven, or the kings of the earth have not been judged on the earth, the two witnesses will not be seen for over 1,000 years from now.

That also means that the Anti-Christ will not appear also until the 1,000 years of the Bottomless Pit being locked has passed.

Shalom
 

pompadour

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From my understanding of the the event where there will be two witnesses in Jerusalem, who will be killed by the "beast" and then rise again, this event cannot happen until the Bottomless Pit is unlocked after the passing of the prophesied 1000 years years of The Bottomless pit being locked.

I think the 1000 yrs you are referring to is when Jesus will be ruling the world for a 1000 yrs. after his return. at the start the devil is placed in the bottomless and opened after the 1000 yrs.

Pomp.
 
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Jay Ross

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I think the 1000 yrs you are referring to is when Jesus will be ruling the world for a 1000 yrs. after his return. at the start the devil is placed in the bottomless and opened after the 1000 yrs.

Pomp.

I am not sure that Jesus will return permanently to the face of the world to rule the earth in out near future.

My understanding is that Jesus will be a Priest and will exercise his priestly duties in Heaven during this 1,000 year period while the Bottomless Pit is locked with Satan and the beasts imprisoned in the Bottomless Pit.

My understanding is that Jesus will be seen from Jerusalem and the Israelites will seek His terms of peace, while He is judging the Kings of the Earth after which time He will return to heaven to exercise His Priestly role.

That is as I see it.

Shalom
 

pompadour

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I am not sure that Jesus will return permanently to the face of the world to rule the earth in out near future.

My understanding is that Jesus will be a Priest and will exercise his priestly duties in Heaven during this 1,000 year period while the Bottomless Pit is locked with Satan and the beasts imprisoned in the Bottomless Pit.

My understanding is that Jesus will be seen from Jerusalem and the Israelites will seek His terms of peace, while He is judging the Kings of the Earth after which time He will return to heaven to exercise His Priestly role.

That is as I see it.

Shalom
Revelation 21


King James Version



21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

God bless, Pomp.
 
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Trekson

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I hear that, "not proper exegesis" phrase used and abused all the time, particularly by those who can't show Bible Scripture backup for their un-Biblical theories.

Jesus showed the seven candlesticks represent the seven Churches at the end of Revelation 1. No reason, nor excuse to doubt Him.

I agree w/ your last line, however, if Jesus wanted the two candlesticks to be churches he would have said so. For example Zech. describes two olive trees and the two witnesses in Rev. 11 is the fulfillment of that prophecy way before any churches were in Zech's mind a possibility. Now, is one of them the same olive tree spoken of in Rom. 11? Of course not. Is every time an olive tree is mentioned in the bible is it speaking of one of the witnesses? No. Just take it as it is written, two churches are not going to be killed and lie in the street w/ the whole world watching.
 
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Trekson

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Revelation 21


King James Version


21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

God bless, Pomp.

That is after the millennium though.
 
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Josho

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Malachi : 4-5
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:

There is only one "Day of the Lord". Elijah will be here just before that time. one of the two witnesses.
Pomp.

Pompy.

You do remember the disciples asked Jesus about this.


Matthew 17:10-13
Then his disciples asked him, “Why do the teachers of religious law insist that Elijah must return before the Messiah comes? ” Jesus replied, “Elijah is indeed coming first to get everything ready. But I tell you, Elijah has already come, but he wasn’t recognized, and they chose to abuse him. And in the same way they will also make the Son of Man suffer.Then the disciples realized he was talking about John the Baptist.
 

Josho

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Also those that believe Elijah and Enoch are the two witnesses, how do the 2 Olive trees and 2 lampstands represent them? That was one of the reasons why the guy in the video wasn't satisfied with the answers "Elijah and Enoch" or "Elijah and Moses".
 
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101G

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Hello

From my understanding of the the event where there will be two witnesses in Jerusalem, who will be killed by the "beast" and then rise again, this event cannot happen until the Bottomless Pit is unlocked after the passing of the prophesied 1000 years years of The Bottomless pit being locked.

Since The heavenly hosts in heaven have not been judged yet in heaven, or the kings of the earth have not been judged on the earth, the two witnesses will not be seen for over 1,000 years from now.

That also means that the Anti-Christ will not appear also until the 1,000 years of the Bottomless Pit being locked has passed.

Shalom
Not saying that you're right or wrong, but consider this.

John 16:7 "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you."
John 16:8 "And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:"
John 16:9 "Of sin, because they believe not on me;"
John 16:10 "Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;"
John 16:11 "Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged."
John 16:12 "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now."
John 16:13 "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come."

that word "Reprove" in John 16:8 means this,
G1651 ἐλέγχω elegcho (e-leng'-chō) v.
to confute, admonish.
[of uncertain affinity]
KJV: convict, convince, tell a fault, rebuke, reprove

one only get convicted in a JUDGMENT. and the John 16:11 states, "Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged."

PICJAG.
 
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101G

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Pompy.

You do remember the disciples asked Jesus about this.


Matthew 17:10-13
Then his disciples asked him, “Why do the teachers of religious law insist that Elijah must return before the Messiah comes? ” Jesus replied, “Elijah is indeed coming first to get everything ready. But I tell you, Elijah has already come, but he wasn’t recognized, and they chose to abuse him. And in the same way they will also make the Son of Man suffer.Then the disciples realized he was talking about John the Baptist.
that's correct, because John is that Elijah who has already come.

let me impart something unto you about John the Baptist, if you don't mind. one day many years ago while sitting in church at the 11 o'clock service, I was reading my bible instead of listening to the preacher, and GOD gave me a wonderful revelation about John. listen, John 1:6 "There was a man sent from God, whose name was John." did you see it? if not I will bold what is important. John 1:6 "There was a man sent from God, whose name was John." notice John was SENT "FROM" God , not sent "BY" God. John was SENT "FROM" which caught my attention is how can John a living breathing man ... with blood be sent .. "FROM" God. BINGO the light bulbs went off.... "spirit". our spirits defined one's character or characteristics. and the scripture clearly states, tha this messemger will come in the "spirit"/character of Elijah. Luke 1:17 "And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."

so with that one revelating scripture, it started me on my Journey in understanding that John the baptist is one of the two witness. and when the bible showed me that the Lord Jesus is the other witness the olive trees and Lampstands fell into place as other things pertaining to these two witness, even to the fire coming out of their mouth and to their deaths.

hope this helps.

PICJAG.
 
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Philip James

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. at the start the devil is placed in the bottomless and opened after the 1000 yrs.

How can anyone enter a strong man's house and steal his property, unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can plunder his house.

The 1000 years is over, the 'strong man' had been released.. His hour approaches...

Peace be with you!
 
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Earburner

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Earburner:
2 Kings : 2-11.
11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

The text of the Book of Genesis says Enoch lived 365 years before he was taken by God. The text reads that Enoch "walked with God: and he was no more; for God took him" (Gen 5:21–24), which is interpreted as Enoch's entering Heaven alive in some Jewish and Christian traditions. Pomp.
Unfortunately, that "tradition" is based on an assumption that Enoch and Elijah didn't die. So then, as to being taken to heaven, that is the error in that assumption.
According to Jesus, the prophets Enoch, Elijah, or anyone else, HAVE NOT ascended (entered) into heaven!
John 3[13] And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Now either Jesus doesn't know about it, or Jesus lied. I'm sure that you don't agree to either of that!
Therefore, some other situation did happen, like he was whisked away by the Spirit of God to another location on the earth. There are other scriptures that attest to that fact.
But first, consider Philip in Acts 8:26-39,
[39] And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
Shall we assume that Philip was caught away (ascended) into heaven? Of course not.

Well, a similar like situation happened to Elijah, which most likely is the case.
Did you know that there is a scriptural accounting, proving that Elijah was found to be in another location, after the "fiery chariot" of God whisked him away from the presence of Elisha?
896 BC- Elijah is whisked away by a fiery whirlwind (chariot?). But 6 years later, in the year of
889 BC, Jerhoram the son of Jehosaphat, recieved a writing from Elijah, saying that he had not walked in the ways of *his father, nor in the ways of Asa, king of Judah.
*Note- Jerhoram received the kingdom because his father Jehosaphat had died in 889 BC. 2 Chr. 21:1. At 32 Jerhoram began to reign in Jerusalem and did so for 8 years (21:5), and later "departed [died], without being desired" (21:20).
Within that period of 8 years, the letter of writing from Elijah came to him, probably 2 years before he died

Q. So then, when did Elijah supposedly ascend into heaven?
A. 896 BC.
Q. When did Elijah write a letter to Jerhoram?
A. In 889 BC. Jerhoram received the letter from Elijah.
So then, 896 minus 889 = 7
Therefore, 7 years later, after Elijah was taken up to heaven by a firey whirlwind, Elijah wrote a letter to Jerhoram.
Hmmm, how did that happen??
Think on that a bit.

Q. What is the truthful conclusion, concerning Elijah?
A. He was relocated elsewhere on the earth.

Now that Elisha was wearing Elijah's "mantle", an explanation of what happened to Elijah, would've been required.
Don't you find it odd, that there was no other available witness, to authenticate what Elisha claimed to have happened to Elijah?
Is it possible that Elisha's story about his father, could have been spiritually embellished a bit? I believe so!
Again, back to Jesus' words John 3:13

So now what? Shall you point to
The Transfiguration?
I suppose after 900 years, the disciples knew what Elijah looked like??
They actually saw Elijah speaking with Jesus about His upcoming death, though they were 900 years into the future?
I don't think so.

How about simply this: they saw two angels with Jesus, talking to Him about His death, which Jesus said would happen!
John 1[51] And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter [by the transfiguration] ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

Again, back to John 3:13
 
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icxn

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dunno why, but i am persuaded that they are not actual persons for some reason
They are the Old and the New Testaments that teach Christ's days (virtues and knowledge*) and clothe their message within the call for repentance (sackcloth). The Old teaches us how to cultivate the outer man by means of God’s commandments and thus clothe the soul with the virtues. In contrast, the New contains the principles of knowledge with which the mind, the inner man, can contemplate God in spirit and in truth. The Old is the left olive tree from which we collect instructions and examples for doing that which is pleasing to God and thus fill our lamps in preparation for the marriage feast. Mixed with the oil extracted from the other tree, the New fuels the flame that warms the heart with love for God and neighbor, while illuminating the mind with divine knowledge.

_____
* In the spiritual cosmos of our soul, days are measured by the dispelling of the darkness of sin and ignorance and the dawning of virtue and knowledge (of God) shined forth from Christ, the Sun of Righteousness (Malachi 4:2, 2 Corinthians 4:6, Revelation 21:23).
 

Davy

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I agree w/ your last line, however, if Jesus wanted the two candlesticks to be churches he would have said so.

He did show us, you just apparently missed it.

In His seven Messages to the seven Churches in Revelation 2 & 3, He had rebuke for five of them, but there were two Churches He had no rebuke for. Those two, Smyrna and Philadelphia, symbolically represent His very elect. And only those two does He show they recognized Christ's enemies here on earth. Those represent the two candlesticks.
 

Trekson

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He did show us, you just apparently missed it.

In His seven Messages to the seven Churches in Revelation 2 & 3, He had rebuke for five of them, but there were two Churches He had no rebuke for. Those two, Smyrna and Philadelphia, symbolically represent His very elect. And only those two does He show they recognized Christ's enemies here on earth. Those represent the two candlesticks.

That's the problem w/ symbolism. One can come up w/ a mountain of possibilities for every little factoid. The five churches were the elect as well and if Christ was to offer the same criticism to the church of today, he would come back w/ the whip and give us a good thrashing while reminding us what we're supposed to be doing, similar to those he drove out of the temple that day. The rest of the prophecies regarding that time just don't match up w/ them being churches. The whole of prophetic scripture has to weave together making a perfected plan, not a jumble of possibilities which is the only thing symbolism offers, imo.
 
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Davy

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That's the problem w/ symbolism. One can come up w/ a mountain of possibilities for every little factoid. The five churches were the elect as well and if Christ was to offer the same criticism to the church of today, he would come back w/ the whip and give us a good thrashing while reminding us what we're supposed to be doing, similar to those he drove out of the temple that day. The rest of the prophecies regarding that time just don't match up w/ them being churches. The whole of prophetic scripture has to weave together making a perfected plan, not a jumble of possibilities which is the only thing symbolism offers, imo.

In the sense you speak of, that all those who believe on Jesus Christ are His elect, that's true, IF one does not 'fall away'. I'm not going to debate this difference, because it is clearly shown in John 17 about those not of this world who were 'sent' compared to those who only come to believe through 'their' word (i.e., by their preaching of The Gospel). Like Jesus said, many are called, but few are chosen. A chosen elect is one who cannot get out of their called duty for Christ; He will force them back to their duty if they stray. But for the rest of us, God will allow us to stray if that's what we choose.
 

bbyrd009

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They are the Old and the New Testaments that teach Christ's days (virtues and knowledge*) and clothe their message within the call for repentance (sackcloth). The Old teaches us how to cultivate the outer man by means of God’s commandments and thus clothe the soul with the virtues. In contrast, the New contains the principles of knowledge with which the mind, the inner man, can contemplate God in spirit and in truth. The Old is the left olive tree from which we collect instructions and examples for doing that which is pleasing to God and thus fill our lamps in preparation for the marriage feast. Mixed with the oil extracted from the other tree, the New fuels the flame that warms the heart with love for God and neighbor, while illuminating the mind with divine knowledge.

_____
* In the spiritual cosmos of our soul, days are measured by the dispelling of the darkness of sin and ignorance and the dawning of virtue and knowledge (of God) shined forth from Christ, the Sun of Righteousness (Malachi 4:2, 2 Corinthians 4:6, Revelation 21:23).
spoken absolutely, but nonetheless quite possible i guess, ya
 

Davy

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That's the problem w/ symbolism. One can come up w/ a mountain of possibilities for every little factoid. The five churches were the elect as well and if Christ was to offer the same criticism to the church of today, he would come back w/ the whip and give us a good thrashing while reminding us what we're supposed to be doing, similar to those he drove out of the temple that day. The rest of the prophecies regarding that time just don't match up w/ them being churches. The whole of prophetic scripture has to weave together making a perfected plan, not a jumble of possibilities which is the only thing symbolism offers, imo.

Furthermore, Christ's Messages to those two Churches He had no rebuke for, contain specific information not privy to the other five Churches. That... is something the serious Bible student should have recognized immediately when studying those seven Messages which Lord Jesus gave those Churches through His Apostle John.
 

friend of

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My understanding is that Jesus will be a Priest and will exercise his priestly duties in Heaven during this 1,000 year period while the Bottomless Pit is locked with Satan and the beasts imprisoned in the Bottomless Pit.

Actually, when Christ returns He throws the beast and false prophet into the lake of fire. Not Satan. Revelation 19:20. Satan is thrown in Revelation 20:10