The Unclothed State (2 Cor. 5:4)

[CoreIssue]

Hello @CoreIssue,

With respect, it is the body which has the faculty of sight, of hearing, and speech. The spirit, is 'the breath of life', it has no body form or function. It goes back to God who gave it. The believer in the Lord Jesus Christ, when dead, is reckoned by God as being 'asleep in Christ'. There is no consciousness in death: and no life apart from the power of the resurrection. The resurrection is yet to come, at a time of God's choosing.

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

So since God and angels are spirits they cannot see, hear or speak?

Your definition of spirit is incomplete.
Strong's Number: 4151 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
pneu'ma from (4154)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Pneuma 6:332,876
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
pnyoo'-mah Noun Neuter
Definition

1. the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son
   1. sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his personality and character (the \\Holy\\ Spirit)
   2. sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his work and power (the Spirit of \\Truth\\)
   3. never referred to as a depersonalised force
2. the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated
   1. the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides
   2. the soul
3. a spirit, i.e. a simple essence, devoid of all or at least all grosser matter, and possessed of the power of knowing, desiring, deciding, and acting
   1. a life giving spirit
   2. a human soul that has left the body
   3. a spirit higher than man but lower than God, i.e. an angel
      1. used of demons, or evil spirits, who were conceived as inhabiting the bodies of men
      2. the spiritual nature of Christ, higher than the highest angels and equal to God, the divine nature of Christ
4. the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul of any one
   1. the efficient source of any power, affection, emotion, desire, etc.
5. a movement of air (a gentle blast)
   1. of the wind, hence the wind itself
   2. breath of nostrils or mouth

 

[CoreIssue]

"The whole man is the soul" is contradicted by Scripture. That is simply because "man became a living soul" simply means "man became a living person". Just like "eight souls were saved by water" simply means "eight persons were saved by water".

Now if you want the truth about what man consists of, then go to 1 Thessalonians 5:23 written by divine inspiration:

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole [1] spirit and [2] soul and [3] body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul distinguishes between the spirit and the soul because they are DISTINCT from each other, and yet inseparable. And also distinct from the body. Therefore we have this Scripture (Heb 4:12)

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

In view of these clear Scriptures, you should now give up your half-baked ideas about man's body, soul, and spirit. When people promote spiritual confusion even after seeing what is in the Bible, they condemn themselves.

You are the one that is confused. The spirit and soul are not inseparable. They are completely separate. So the half-baked idea is yours.


Strong's Number: 5590 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
yuchv from (5594)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Psuche 9:608,1342
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
psoo-khay' Noun Feminine
Definition

1. breath
   1. the breath of life
      1. the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing 1a
   2. of animals 1a
2. of men
   1. life
   2. that in which there is life
      1. a living being, a living soul
3. the soul
   1. the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.)
   2. the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life
   3. the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (distinguished from other parts of the body)

 

[Bible_Gazer]

Hello @Bible_Gazer,

The subject of 2 Corinthians 5:1-2 is resurrection.


* The change will take place in the twinkling of an eye. In Thessalonians we read of a resurrection, in which those who are asleep in Christ will rise first and meet the Lord in the air, and those who are alive and remain with then rise to join them. That is when a 'change' will take place.

* Your second point refers to, (1 Corinthians 15:20-23):-

'But now is Christ risen from the dead,
and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
For since by man came death,
by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
But every man in his own order:
Christ the firstfruits;
afterward they that are Christ's at His coming.
(1 Corinthians 15:20-23)



* Those who ate the manna from heaven in the wilderness held the same hope of resurrection as expressed by Mary in John 11:23-26:-

'Jesus saith unto her, "Thy brother shall rise again."
Martha saith unto Him, "I know that He shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day."
Jesus said unto her, "I am the resurrection, and the life:
he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.
Believest thou this?
(John 11:23-26)

* However, the Lord makes known to Mary, that He is the Resurrection and He is the Life: and those who, 'live and believe,' in the Lord Jesus Christ, on that resurrection day, will be raised without having to see death at all.

* There is also more than one resurrection.



* Angels are a separate creation to man, a man cannot become an angel. The Lord Jesus Christ was made a little lower than the angels, taking the form of a man, in order to redeem mankind.

* Angelic beings serve God in heaven, they are God's messengers.



'But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren,
.. concerning them which are asleep,
.... that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again,
.. even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord,
.. that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord
.... shall not prevent them which are asleep.
For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,
.. with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:
.... and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
...... Then we which are alive and remain
........ shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:
.......... and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
............ Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
(1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)

* This was the hope held by believers during the Acts period, for the coming of the Lord had the potential to be imminent at that time: The door was still open for Israel to repent until Acts 28:23-28, when they were finally laid aside (though temporarily) in unbelief.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

So what I am understanding from you is:
That nobody is in heaven today because they don't have a clothed body yet. The OT saints and NT saints will all rise up together to meet the Lord.
The salvation plan is the same for both, they get a resurrection alike.

We won't like the angels in heaven. But we will changed into a heavenly body that is different than them ?
But we will not be messengers.
And we won't serve God like the angels do ?

good discussion

 

[charity]

"The whole man is the soul" is contradicted by Scripture. That is simply because "man became a living soul" simply means "man became a living person". Just like "eight souls were saved by water" simply means "eight persons were saved by water".

Now if you want the truth about what man consists of, then go to 1 Thessalonians 5:23 written by divine inspiration:

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole [1] spirit and [2] soul and [3] body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul distinguishes between the spirit and the soul because they are DISTINCT from each other, and yet inseparable. And also distinct from the body. Therefore we have this Scripture (Heb 4:12)

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

In view of these clear Scriptures, you should now give up your half-baked ideas about man's body, soul, and spirit. When people promote spiritual confusion even after seeing what is in the Bible, they condemn themselves.

Hello @Enoch111,

You were correct in saying that in Genesis 2:7 the words, 'a living soul', refers to the person, which is the point I was making. However the word 'soul' is also used of the life of a man. It is the body energised by the spirit of life, creating a living being. The soul is not immortal, for we are told that the soul that sinneth it shall surely die, and as all have sinned and come short of the glory of God then each soul (or person) will surely die.

* The verses you have quoted 1 Thessalonians 5:23, and Hebrews 4:12, do differentiate between 'soul' and 'spirit', and 'body', 'soul' and 'spirit': but in the latter case, that of Hebrews 4:12, the word translated, 'soul', is Gr. 'Psuche', which is used of the life of man, which can be lost, destroyed, saved, or laid down. The, 'dividing of soul and spirit', means, not only differentiating between that which is begotten of the flesh, and that which is begotten of the spirit, (John 3:6), in the individual, but also between the natural (Gr. psuchikos) man, and the spiritual (Gr. pneumatikos) man.(see 1 Corinthians 2:13-15).

* In 1 Thessalonians 5:23, 'spirit' means 'man-psychologically', 'pnuema' (spirit) being imparted to man, making him a living soul ('a living soul' -'psuche' - or being) (Psalm 104:29-30) when taken back to or by God, man, without pnuema (spirit) becomes a 'dead soul'. In each of the 13 occurrences in Scripture translated 'dead body'. Soul (psuche) refers to the life of man.

'Thou hidest Thy face, they are troubled:
Thou takest away their breath, (H7307) they die, and return to their dust.
Thou sendest forth Thy spirit, (H7307) they are created:
and Thou renewest the face of the earth.'
(Psa 104:29-30)

* So I will stand by the wording of my previous post.

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Ref. Bible marginal notes

 

[charity]

So what I am understanding from you is:
That nobody is in heaven today because they don't have a clothed body yet. The OT saints and NT saints will all rise up together to meet the Lord.
The salvation plan is the same for both, they get a resurrection alike.

We won't be
like the angels in heaven. But we will changed into a heavenly body that is different than them ?
But we will not be messengers.
And we won't serve God like the angels do ?

good discussion

Hello @Bible_Gazer,

Yes, it has been a good discussion, thank you, for playing your part in making it so.

* Yes, man does not have an immortal soul, for only God has immortality:-

'... That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable,
until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Which in His times He shall shew,
Who is the blessed and only Potentate,
the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
Who only hath immortality,
dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto;
Whom no man hath seen, nor can see:
to Whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.'
(1 Timothy 6:14-16)

Praise God!

* The life of the believer is hid with Christ in God. (Colossians 3:3-4) And when Christ Who is our life, shall appear, then we too will appear with Him in glory. That is the hope of the church which is the Body of Christ. For there is more than one resurrection.

Praise His Holy Name!

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[farouk]

Hello @Bible_Gazer,

Yes, it has been a good discussion, thank you, for playing your part in making it so.

* Yes, man does not have an immortal soul, for only God has immortality:-

'... That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable,
until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Which in His times He shall shew,
Who is the blessed and only Potentate,
the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
Who only hath immortality,
dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto;
Whom no man hath seen, nor can see:
to Whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.'
(1 Timothy 6:14-16)

Praise God!

* The life of the believer is hid with Christ in God. (Colossians 3:3-4) And when Christ Who is our life, shall appear, then we too will appear with Him in glory. That is the hope of the church which is the Body of Christ. For there is more than one resurrection.

Praise His Holy Name!

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Perishing does not mean, loss of being, but loss of well-being.

 

[charity]

Perishing does not mean, loss of being, but loss of well-being.

G622 apollumi (e.g., John 3:16 & 1 Corinthians 1:18) - 'to destroy fully'
G684 apoleia (e.g., Acts 8:30) - 'ruin or loss'
G853 aphanizo (e.g., Acts 13:41) - 'to consume'

Hello @farouk

The Greek words (above) are all translated 'perish'.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[farouk]

G622 apollumi (e.g., John 3:16 & 1 Corinthians 1:18) - 'to destroy fully'
G684 apoleia (e.g., Acts 8:30) - 'ruin or loss'
G853 aphanizo (e.g., Acts 13:41) - 'to consume'

Hello @farouk

The Greek words (above) are all translated 'perish'.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

John 3.16 doesn't mean annihilation; it means that the being continues in perished, well-being loss.

 

[charity]

John 3.16 doesn't mean annihilation; it means that the being continues in perished, well-being loss.

'For God so loved the world,
that He gave His only begotten Son,
that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish,
but have everlasting life.
For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world;
but that the world through Him might be saved.
He that believeth on Him is not condemned:
but he that believeth not is condemned already,
because he hath not believed
in the name of the only begotten Son of God.'
(John 3:16-18)

Hello @farouk,

Not according to the Strong's concordance, where to destroy fully is given as it's meaning, I'm afraid.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[farouk]

Hello @farouk,

Not according to the Strong's concordance, where to destroy fully is given as it's meaning.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

I'm not an annihilationist.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

'For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened:
not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon,
that mortality might be swallowed up of life.'
(2 Corinthians 5:4)

“...not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life’

Not fully sure but consider:

Death is swallowed up in victory.
Mortality is swallowed up of life.
Isn’t the same: death is swallowed up of the life. Consider the rest in this, the corruptible must put on the incorruptible. The corruptible swallowed up by the incorruptible. Darkness swallowed up by Light. Evil swallowed up by good. The works of man swallowed up by the Fruit of God. Do we see the victory there? The overcoming? This natural and passing away swallowed up by that which does not pass away but remains. The curse swallowed up by the blessing. The poison swallowed up by the pure. Vanity swallowed up in HOPE. It is not an evil thing for this body of His, where death is to be swallowed up of Life in Victory. The creation in the bondage of corruption “groans” to be delivered into freedom and Liberty...the corruption of vanity swallowed up in all that is Christ. Which leads to why then the distaste and refusal of: that which is outward being swallowed up of the hidden man? Line it up with the word how that which is outward perishes (grows weaker) while the hidden man in that which IS incorruptible (1 Peter 3:3-4) is renewed. Who is the victorious? That which is outward and perishes, or that which is refreshed of God in the inward man.

Romans 2:28-29
[28] For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: [29] But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Not going to like it but the outward (flesh)Jew must be swallowed up of the inward (Spiritual)Jew. It is not an evil thing for flesh (the outward)to be swallowed up of the (inward)Spirit man but as it is said “death (mortality) is swallowed up of Life (Immortality), and the curse is swallowed up in blessing of the Son(s) of God(the promise seed)made manifest and revealed to His glory.

1 Peter 1:23
[23] Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Corruptible(Adam)seed swallowed up by the incorruptible seed which is Christ planted “in the children of God”.

Do we see the victory over death foretold? “To be clothed upon” of Life.

 

[bbyrd009]

So since God and angels are spirits they cannot see, hear or speak?

Do spirits you manifest see, hear, or speak? And the def below this is obviously at odds with Scripture, which plainly tells us their are no persons in God? Even Strong's blows it sometimes I guess. That isn't in the original Strong's btw

 

[bbyrd009]

'Jesus saith unto her, "Thy brother shall rise again."
Martha saith unto Him, "I know that He shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day."
Jesus said unto her, "I am the resurrection, and the life:
he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.
Believest thou this?
(John 11:23-26)

* However, the Lord makes known to Mary, that He is the Resurrection and He is the Life: and those who, 'live and believe,' in the Lord Jesus Christ, on that resurrection day, will be raised without having to see death at all.

so iow Mary refers to death More Abundantly and Jesus all but rebukes her for it, but you read it as an affirmation? And sure enough, Lazarus was not raised later, but that day, right, which was "today."

"Raised" to where now, one might ask

Also how do you guys turn "...he shall never die" into "without having to see death at all?" When the contexts make that impossible? Paul died, Peter died, etc, etc, hello

 

[charity]

I'm not an annihilationist.

Hello again, @farouk,

It doesn't really matter what you and I think though does it?

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[charity]

“...not for that we would be unclothed,
but clothed upon,
that mortality might be swallowed up of life’

Not fully sure but consider:

Death is swallowed up in victory.
Mortality is swallowed up of life.
Isn’t the same: death is swallowed up of the life. Consider the rest in this, the corruptible must put on the incorruptible. The corruptible swallowed up by the incorruptible. Darkness swallowed up by Light. Evil swallowed up by good. The works of man swallowed up by the Fruit of God. Do we see the victory there? The overcoming? This natural and passing away swallowed up by that which does not pass away but remains. The curse swallowed up by the blessing. The poison swallowed up by the pure. Vanity swallowed up in HOPE. It is not an evil thing for this body of His, where death is to be swallowed up of Life in Victory. The creation in the bondage corruption “groans” to be delivered into freedom and Liberty...the corruption of vanity swallowed up in all that is Christ. Which leads to why then the distaste and refusal of: that which is outward being swallowed up of the hidden man? Line it up with the word how that which is outward perishes (grows weaker) while the hidden man in that which IS incorruptible (1 Peter 3:3-4) is renewed. Who is the victorious? That which is outward and perishes, or that which is refreshed of God in the inward man.

Hello @VictoryinJesus,

I can practically see the cogs of your mind working, as these thoughts follow each other in quick succession, wonderful thought following wonderful thought.

Why then the distaste, you ask yourself? Well Paul was a living man who wanted to be with His Lord, He wanted Him to return, so that He would never have to die, but would be with Him for ever. That was the hope at that time, in the light of Peter's call to Israel to repent (Acts 2:38:Acts 3:19-26):-

'Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out,
when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
And He shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things,
which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.'
(Acts 3:19-21)

* But as we know, they did not repent and therefore the return of the Lord is still yet to come. Until Christ returns, and that resurrection day dawn, mortality cannot put on immortality, and death cannot be swallowed up of life; for our life is hid with Christ in God, and we await His appearing that we too may appear with Him in glory. That is the hope of the Church which is the Body of Christ. (Colossians 3)

'So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption,
and this mortal shall have put on immortality,
then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written,
Death is swallowed up in victory.
O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?'
(1 Corinthians 15:54-55)

* You have chosen some lovely portions of Scripture, and yes death has lost it's 'victory' and it's 'sting' for those who have the hope of resurrection life in Christ Jesus. However, it has yet to be entered into, because this mortal must put on immortality, and that can only happen at the resurrection (2 Corinthians 5).

Praise God!

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[charity]

so iow Mary refers to death More Abundantly and Jesus all but rebukes her for it, but you read it as an affirmation? And sure enough, Lazarus was not raised later, but that day, right, which was "today."

"Raised" to where now, one might ask

Also how do you guys turn "...he shall never die" into "without having to see death at all?" When the contexts make that impossible? Paul died, Peter died, etc, etc, hello

'Jesus saith unto her, "Thy brother shall rise again."
Martha saith unto Him, "I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day."
Jesus said unto her, "I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die. Believest thou this?"
(John 11:23-26)

Yes, Lord, I believe! - Praise Your Holy Name!

Hello @bbyrd009,

Lazarus was raised to life, but it was earthly life, and he would see death once more.

The Lord tells Mary in the verses quoted above, 'he that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: and whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die.' - This still awaits the resurrection, when those who are the believing 'dead' will live again, and those believers who are alive and remain will never die, but immortality will put on immortality.

Christ is the resurrection and He is the life, and until that day, our life is hid with Christ in God, awaiting His appearing in glory (Colossians 3).

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[bbyrd009]

The Lord tells Mary in the verses quoted above, 'he that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: and whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die.' - This still awaits the resurrection, when those who are 'dead' will live again, and those who are alive and remain will never die, but immortality will put on immortality.

Christ is the resurrection and He is the life, and until that day, our life is hid with Christ in God, awaiting His appearing in glory

sorry, but we have copious other Scripture that denies this, your desire to become immortal, despite your assertions that you will not become immortal in other places which are correct imo, so now wadr you are just sounding like Dave.

I have absolutely nothing against Mithraists, ok, beliefs are not judged anyway, and I don't mean to be judging them here; they simply are not what Christ came that we might have. Now you might easily be accepted where I am rejected for being an insensitive jerk maybe lol, but you and your sons will be here with me I guess

 

[charity]

sorry, but we have copious other Scripture that denies this, your desire to become immortal, despite your assertions that you will not become immortal in other places which are correct imo, so now wadr you are just sounding like Dave.

I have absolutely nothing against Mithraists, ok, beliefs are not judged anyway, and I don't mean to be judging them here; they simply are not what Christ came that we might have. Now you might easily be accepted where I am rejected for being an insensitive jerk maybe lol, but you and your sons will be here with me I'm prettty sure ok

Hello there @bbyrd009,

You are not an insensitive jerk and I hope you have not been rejected as you say. One thing is sure, nothing can separate you from the love of God in Christ Jesus.

Forgive me, but I don't understand your thoughts here.

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[bbyrd009]

Hello there @bbyrd009,

You are not an insensitive jerk and I hope you have not been rejected as you say. One thing is sure, nothing can separate you from the love of Christ Jesus your Lord.

Forgive me, but I don't understand your thoughts here.

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

i would be immediately suspicious of any Christian model that concentrates on tomorrow, is what it is. If one is waiting for tomorrow for some aspect of their Christian walk to be fulfilled, then imo I would take that as a suggestion that one has further to walk. Tomorrow comes today. Understand I AM.

Doesn't mean tomorrow won't be diff from today I guess, not at all; but it will only ever be "today" for us, really no matter when we are talking about, it will always be "now"
A theology that projects rewards into the future--despite all of the vv that have been projected there--is a bad theology. God has set a day, and called it Today.

Won't be popular I guess, but there it is

 

[Phoneman777]

This means...not that we would be unclothed of personal righteousness...but rather further clothed with the righteousness of God.

The white raiment we are to desire is the righteousness of saints. If we are unclothed then we are naked and shamed...having soiled our garments through sin.

I think you're spiritualizing that which Paul did not intend to be such. From the get go, he's talking about us being clothed upon with a mortal body and then a glorified body, and that naked state in the grave where we are without a body.

Paul's simply saying he wants to be out of this body of aches and pains and heartache, skip the "naked" state of being dead in the grave awaiting the call from Jesus, and go straight to being in the presence of God. But, Paul knew that didn't happen at death, because he himself said, "For we must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ" which he knew happened at the Second Coming, which is when he expected to rise from the grave.