The Unclothed State (2 Cor. 5:4)

[Phoneman777]

'For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened:
not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon,
that mortality might be swallowed up of life.'
(2 Corinthians 5:4)

Hello there,

Reading through another thread this morning, I came across a statement made by a member regarding the 'unclothed' state, referred to here by Paul in 2 Corinthians 5. This member believed that the 'unclothed' were disembodied spirits.

I believe that at death the body goes back to the dust from whence it came, and that the spirit (or breath of life) goes back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7). That what is referred to here as an unclothed state, is the state of death itself. For what Paul wished to avoid was dying prior to the Lord's return, for his expectation was to be clothed upon with a resurrection body, and be with the Lord, which required the Lord's physical presence.

The hope expressed during the Acts period was for the imminent return of Christ, which required Israel's repentance, which did not come, so we still await the appearing of our Saviour, and the resurrection promised.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Your analysis is absolutely correct that we die and await in the grave for the Second Coming of Christ, though Paul's desire was to depart his body of suffering and sorrow, skip the nakedness of being dead in the grave without a body, and go straight to the presence of God forevermore. And when you think about it, it should be the desire of all of us.

 

[quietthinker]

The Unclothed State
Last time i checked it was when the bikini wasn't worn.
So many words for the obvious!

 

[charity]

The Unclothed State
Last time i checked it was when the bikini wasn't worn.
So many words for the obvious!

'For in the multitude of dreams
and many words
there are also divers vanities:
but fear thou God.'
(Ecclesiastes 5:7)

Hello @quietthinker,

I like your user-name.

Forgive my verbosity.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[charity]

i would be immediately suspicious of any Christian model that concentrates on tomorrow, is what it is. If one is waiting for tomorrow for some aspect of their Christian walk to be fulfilled, then imo I would take that as a suggestion that one has further to walk. Tomorrow comes today. Understand I AM.

Doesn't mean tomorrow won't be diff from today I guess, not at all; but it will only ever be "today" for us, really no matter when we are talking about, it will always be "now"
A theology that projects rewards into the future--despite all of the vv that have been projected there--is a bad theology. God has set a day, and called it Today.

Won't be popular I guess, but there it is

Hello @bbyrd009,

Thank you for explaining yourself as you have. I understand what you are saying. The experience of every believer in the Lord Jesus Christ is that the entrance of God's Word has brought light. That enlightenment brings knowledge and understanding of the things of God, and brings clarity and joy, as natural light brings colour and definition. He is with us here and now in our experiences on a daily, hourly, moment by moment basis. With that I agree.

However, there are also things which have a future application, such as the resurrection. His appearing is something that is to be looked for.

'For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
.. Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts,
.... we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Looking for that blessed hope,
.. and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
.... Who gave Himself for us,
...... that He might redeem us from all iniquity,
........ and purify unto Himself a peculiar people,
.......... zealous of good works.
These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority.
Let no man despise thee.'
(Titus 2:11-15)

Praise God!

Within the love of Christ our Saviour.
Chris

 

[charity]

I think you're spiritualizing that which Paul did not intend to be such. From the get go, he's talking about us being clothed upon with a mortal body and then a glorified body, and that naked state in the grave where we are without a body.

Paul's simply saying he wants to be out of this body of aches and pains and heartache, skip the "naked" state of being dead in the grave awaiting the call from Jesus, and go straight to being in the presence of God. But, Paul knew that didn't happen at death, because he himself said, "For we must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ" which he knew happened at the Second Coming, which is when he expected to rise from the grave.

Hello @Phoneman777,

Thank you for your entry, it is appreciated.

* Can I just query your last sentence, (quote) - 'But, Paul knew that didn't happen at death, because he himself said, "For we must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ" which he knew happened at the Second Coming, which is when he expected to rise from the grave.' - For this has brought to mind the words of Paul in Philippians 3:11:-

Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord:
for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
And be found in Him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law,
but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
That I may know Him, and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings,
being made conformable unto His death;
If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
(Philippians 3:8-11)

* As you will know, the word 'resurrection' here is Gr. exanastasis, (a rising from death, or out from among the dead) G1817. This is the only occurrence of this word. The other occurrences of the word 'resurrection' being a translation of G386. Gr. anastasis ( raised to life again, raised from the dead). The isolated use of this word in Philippians 3:11, gives pause for thought doesn't it? I would be interested to hear if you have an explanation for this? I believe that it should not be overlooked, especially when coupled with the hope of the Church of the One Body of Ephesians, Philippians and Colossians, :-

'When Christ, Who is our life, shall appear,
then shall ye also appear with Him in glory.'
(Coossiansl 3:4)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Episkopos]

I think you're spiritualizing that which Paul did not intend to be such. From the get go, he's talking about us being clothed upon with a mortal body and then a glorified body, and that naked state in the grave where we are without a body.

Paul's simply saying he wants to be out of this body of aches and pains and heartache, skip the "naked" state of being dead in the grave awaiting the call from Jesus, and go straight to being in the presence of God. But, Paul knew that didn't happen at death, because he himself said, "For we must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ" which he knew happened at the Second Coming, which is when he expected to rise from the grave.

There is a captain obvious aspect to the text for they who read by skimming through the bible without seeking the truth of it. But if you look deeper into it there is a deeper meaning.

Now I am using the whole counsel of God here....but you are only seeing what appears in the text as if it was disconnected from all the other texts.

Look at this verse...

2 Cor. 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.


So explain this...in the above verse if clothing means to be alive and naked means to be dead as you and others seem to think...then how can we be both clothed and naked at the same time...????

Think this out. Please don't have me walk you through word by word.

What does being naked mean in the rest of the bible? Do you know? Do you care?

 

[Phoneman777]

Hello @Phoneman777,

Thank you for your entry, it is appreciated.

* Can I just query your last sentence, (quote) - 'But, Paul knew that didn't happen at death, because he himself said, "For we must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ" which he knew happened at the Second Coming, which is when he expected to rise from the grave.' - For this has brought to mind the words of Paul in Philippians 3:11:-

Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord:
for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
And be found in Him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law,
but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
That I may know Him, and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings,
being made conformable unto His death;
If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
(Philippians 3:8-11)

* As you will know, the word 'resurrection' here is Gr. exanastasis, (a rising from death, or out from among the dead) G1817. This is the only occurrence of this word. The other occurrences of the word 'resurrection' being a translation of G386. Gr. anastasis ( raised to life again, raised from the dead). The isolated use of this word in Philippians 3:11, gives pause for thought doesn't it? I would be interested to hear if you have an explanation for this? I believe that it should not be overlooked, especially when coupled with the hope of the Church of the One Body of Ephesians, Philippians and Colossians, :-

'When Christ, Who is our life, shall appear,
then shall ye also appear with Him in glory.'
(Coossiansl 3:4)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

The meaning of the two words is so identical to one another that I can't see any appreciable reason to differentiate. His emphasis on our part to "attain to" the resurrection - an idea from which some no doubt recoil in horror that Paul would suggest the "sinner's prayer" is shown here to be insufficient - which emphasis refers to "total surrender" of thoughts, words, actions, and not just the lip service of empty prayers, may perhaps have something to do with his choice of wording, but IDK.

 

[Phoneman777]

2 Cor. 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. So explain this...in the above verse if clothing means to be alive and naked means to be dead as you and others seem to think...then how can we be both clothed and naked at the same time...????

I'm not sure how you conjecture the passage is demanding the two be simultaneous.

"For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: if so be that being clothed (with our glorified body) we shall not be found naked"
​

IOW:

"We're tired of the aches and sorrow of this earthly body but our preferred method of alleviation is not found in naked in the grave without a body, but clothed upon in our new glorious eternal body in the kingdom".
​

The next time you see "RIP", think about this passage.

​

 

[Phoneman777]

There is a captain obvious aspect to the text for they who read by skimming through the bible without seeking the truth of it. But if you look deeper into it there is a deeper meaning.

Now I am using the whole counsel of God here....but you are only seeing what appears in the text as if it was disconnected from all the other texts.

Look at this verse...

2 Cor. 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.


So explain this...in the above verse if clothing means to be alive and naked means to be dead as you and others seem to think...then how can we be both clothed and naked at the same time...????

Think this out. Please don't have me walk you through word by word.

What does being naked mean in the rest of the bible? Do you know? Do you care?

I'm not sure how you conjecture the passage is demanding the two be simultaneous, which is impossible. If getting naked and simultaneously remaining dressed were possible, forget the internet, the WHEEL would never have gotten invented

 

[Episkopos]

I'm not sure how you conjecture the passage is demanding the two be simultaneous, which is impossible. If getting naked and simultaneously remaining dressed were possible, forget the internet, the WHEEL would never have gotten invented

I have explained the meaning of the text but you will still follow a bad trail with bad reasoning. There's nothing else for it...remain in the dark if that is what is comfortable to you...

 

[bbyrd009]

However, there are also things which have a future application, such as the resurrection. His appearing is something that is to be looked for.

ok just remember while you are busy teaching there that tomorrow maybe comes today, ok, and your "His appearing is something to be looked for" just tells me that you are still searching for Christ--well, that and the relentless leading wadr--not that Christ is not right here, right now, as much as He is ever going to be. Not saying I'm not still searching myself. If you read something in Scripture that you cannot find application for today, then you are not on the right page yet imo

Yes, His appearing is something to be looked for, and no, no one will ever see Jesus appear with their Two Eyes, as is made very clear I guess.
Galileans, why do you stand there looking up into the sky?
this is a question that requires an answer, see; you will see Him come down the same way you saw Him go up is strictly add'l information.
Give no thought for tomorrow
God has set a day, called "today"

Now don't get me wrong, I already know why we still look up, Paul made it apparent, and I guess he even managed to work tomorrow in there without ever saying the words...so believe what you believe, fine, but imo I would be looking for tares anytime someone starts conflating Christ with tomorrow ok

 

[bbyrd009]

We are cock-sure, I tell you, and (not only that, but) even wish we were already dead, and up in heaven with the Lord.

"You are deceived, I tell you, and already dead, besides being willfully ignorant about where the kingdom of heaven even is!"

 

[Phoneman777]

I have explained the meaning of the text but you will still follow a bad trail with bad reasoning. There's nothing else for it...remain in the dark if that is what is comfortable to you...

I asked you to show from the passage what is there that demands that nakedness and being clothed is simultaneous, but if you're not interested it's all good.

 

[bbyrd009]

I'm not sure how you conjecture the passage is demanding the two be simultaneous.

"For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: if so be that being clothed (with our glorified body) we shall not be found naked"
​

IOW:

"We're tired of the aches and sorrow of this earthly body but our preferred method of alleviation is not found in naked in the grave without a body, but clothed upon in our new glorious eternal body in the kingdom".
​

The next time you see "RIP", think about this passage.

​

we are cock-sure, I tell you...lol.
the kingdom of heaven is somewhere else, outside you, and comes after you have literally died?

 

[bbyrd009]

thief in the night

 

[Phoneman777]

we are cock-sure, I tell you...lol.
the kingdom of heaven is somewhere else, outside you, and comes after you have literally died?

I know it "cometh not by observation" but that refers to the "spiritual" kingdom which exists as a kind of bubble of life in a stagnant, septic swamp which is now, but later arrives with the King on His white horse to drain the swamp.

 

[Phoneman777]

thief in the night

like what happens to the last piece of chocolate cake?

 

[bbyrd009]

I know it "cometh not by observation" but that refers to the "spiritual" kingdom which exists as a kind of bubble of life in a stagnant, septic swamp which is now, but later arrives with the King on His white horse to drain the swamp.

Tag for later, but Pm if you are waiting for a payoff in tomorrow then today is obviously going to fall by the wayside, as I see it has already done in your pardon me terminally incorrect observations about today, that I cannot say are wrong from your pov, but you might note how quickly you would agree to "things used to be a lot better than they are now," if you would. Til later then

 

[bbyrd009]

like what happens to the last piece of chocolate cake?

if only. The whole cake maybe

 

[Phoneman777]

Tag for later, but Pm if you are waiting for a payoff in tomorrow then today is obviously going to fall by the wayside, as I see it has already done in your pardon me terminally incorrect observations about today, that I cannot say are wrong from your pov, but you might note how quickly you would agree to "things used to be a lot better than they are now," if you would. Til later then

Well, we are told "the former things will not come to mind" so whatever's coming then is def going to be an improvement TTYL