The Unclothed State (2 Cor. 5:4)

[bbyrd009]

Well, we are told "the former things will not come to mind" so whatever's coming then is def going to be an improvement TTYL

"then" is almost surely "when you get it," ok, when the words the preacher said while you were getting ritually baptized become realized iow. If you have some need, or lack, then state it right here, right now, what is keeping you from pressed down, shaken together, and running over right this second, Pm?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

* But as we know, they did not repent and therefore the return of the Lord is still yet to come. Until Christ returns, and that resurrection day dawn, mortality cannot put on immortality, and death cannot be swallowed up of life; for our life is hid with Christ in God, and we await His appearing that we too may appear with Him in glory. That is the hope of the Church which is the Body of Christ. (Colossians 3)

Would ask in relation to your thread topic of to be “clothed upon” this question. The other morning I woke with these passages on my mind. Out of nowhere. The outward must be changed “glory to glory”; consider all the verses of that which is outward and that which is inward. What God says of the two. Corruption and “the incorruptible”...

Romans 2:28-29
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: [29] But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


2 Corinthians 4:16-18
[16] For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day. [17] For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; [18] While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Do we not wait for that which is not seen to be seen? That which is not manifest to be revealed? For that inward to swallow up that which is outward and perishing...passing away. Where is death if not in that outward Jew who circumcision in the flesh profits nothing but was a shadow of Him who was to come? His call to put on...be clothed upon...by that inward “hidden man” (the promise) he who is circumcised of the heart by the hand of God and born from above?

Hebrews 4:2-3 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it . [3] For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Romans 11:23
[23] And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Does not the outward Jew put on the inward Jew and then the saying is fulfilled “death is swallowed up in victory” by the “hidden man” of God? Death in the flesh swallowed by victory in the Spirit of God? Death in the circumcision of the flesh (which profits nothing) swallowed up by the circumcision of the heart by God’s hand?

I’m sorry. Hesitated in responding. You are so kind and I don’t want to offend you but want your input on to “be clothed upon” ...isn’t the inward man born of God, those born of God the topic of Romans 8:20-21
[20] For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, [21] Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. —not the outward but delivered into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

 

[complete]

The meaning of the two words is so identical to one another that I can't see any appreciable reason to differentiate. His emphasis on our part to "attain to" the resurrection - an idea from which some no doubt recoil in horror that Paul would suggest the "sinner's prayer" is shown here to be insufficient - which emphasis refers to "total surrender" of thoughts, words, actions, and not just the lip service of empty prayers, may perhaps have something to do with his choice of wording, but IDK.

'That I may know Him,
and the power of His resurrection,
and the fellowship of His sufferings,
being made conformable unto his death;
If by any means I might attain unto
the resurrection of the dead.'
(Philippians 3:10)

Hello @Phoneman777,

Paul could have been in no doubt as to attaining the resurrection from the dead, for that was the hope of Jews generally, as the words of Mary of Bethany in Luke 11:24 - 'the resurrection at the last day', and as testified by Paul regarding those of his own countrymen that accused him, in Acts 24:15:-

'And have hope toward God,
which they themselves also allow,
that there shall be a resurrection of the dead,
both of the just and unjust.'
(Act 24:15)

* No, it was another resurrection that He sought, one that he wished to 'attain' to.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Phoneman777]

'That I may know Him,
and the power of His resurrection,
and the fellowship of His sufferings,
being made conformable unto his death;
If by any means I might attain unto
the resurrection of the dead.'
(Philippians 3:10)

Hello @Phoneman777,

Paul could have been in no doubt as to attaining the resurrection from the dead, for that was the hope of Jews generally, as the words of Mary of Bethany in Luke 11:24 - 'the resurrection at the last day', and as testified by Paul regarding those of his own countrymen that accused him, in Acts 24:15:-

'And have hope toward God,
which they themselves also allow,
that there shall be a resurrection of the dead,
both of the just and unjust.'
(Act 24:15)

* No, it was another resurrection that He sought, one that he wished to 'attain' to.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

I think he used those words to convey not doubt, but struggle, just as when he talked about the importance of keeping his body under submission, lest "after I have preached to others, I myself be found a castaway".

Are you suggesting a third resurrection option exists?

As far as i know, there's only one of two resurrections to which we attain, that of the righteous by "patient continuance in well doing" or that of the damned if we "neglect so great salvation".

BTW, you have a very nice smile and don't look a day over 45 in your avatar pic :)

 

[complete]

I Would ask in relation to your thread topic of to be “clothed upon” this question. The other morning I woke with these passages on my mind. Out of nowhere. The outward must be changed “glory to glory”; consider all the verses of that which is outward and that which is inward. What God says of the two. Corruption and “the incorruptible”...

Romans 2:28-29
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: [29] But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


2 Corinthians 4:16-18
[16] For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day. [17] For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; [18] While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Do we not wait for that which is not seen to be seen? That which is not manifest to be revealed? For that inward to swallow up that which is outward and perishing...passing away. Where is death if not in that outward Jew who circumcision in the flesh profits nothing but was a shadow of Him who was to come? His call to put on...be clothed upon...by that inward “hidden man” (the promise) he who is circumcised of the heart by the hand of God and born from above?

Hebrews 4:2-3 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it . [3] For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Romans 11:23
[23] And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Does not the outward Jew put on the inward Jew and then the saying is fulfilled “death is swallowed up in victory” by the “hidden man” of God? Death in the flesh swallowed by victory in the Spirit of God? Death in the circumcision of the flesh (which profits nothing) swallowed up by the circumcision of the heart by God’s hand?

I’m sorry. Hesitated in responding. You are so kind and I don’t want to offend you but want your input on to “be clothed upon” ...isn’t the inward man born of God, those born of God the topic of Romans 8:20-21
[20] For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, [21] Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. —not the outward but delivered into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Hello @VictoryinJesus,

Thank you for not wishing to offend, but I can assure you, that if it is the Word of God that we are discussing, I will have no problem about you having a differing view to me. I will not engage in personal attack and I can expect no less of you.

I think that our differing understanding is produced by our approach to this, we are obviously looking at this from differing perspectives.

I have to close now, and go and make 'potatoe pennies' for my grandson!!! :) If God wills I will come back and discuss this with you asap, although I am not sure at the moment quite how to reconcile our different approaches. I can only hope that God will enable us to understand each other.

Praise His Holy Name!

With my thanks to you
Within the love of Christ our Saviour,
Our Lord, and Head.
Now risen and glorified
at God's right hand.
Chris

 

[Episkopos]

I asked you to show from the passage what is there that demands that nakedness and being clothed is simultaneous, but if you're not interested it's all good.

It's all in the text. reading comprehension is vital when dealing with the written word. One little word change and the whole meaning changes. You have just made excuses to not look mat the text with any kind of adult seriousness. So I leave you to your quick fixes.

 

[Phoneman777]

It's all in the text. reading comprehension is vital when dealing with the written word. One little word change and the whole meaning changes. You have just made excuses to not look mat the text with any kind of adult seriousness. So I leave you to your quick fixes.

I'm not seeing any words to indicate "naked" and "clothed" have anything to do with righteousness in this passage, but clear reference in verse 2 to what kind of clothing to which Paul is referring: A HOUSE BODY.

What you are doing is adding to Scripture an idea Paul absolutely does not say: that the "house" refers to righteousness, and then after introducing this ghost, you are chiding me for refusing to become a ghost chaser, which is not fair and a violation of hermeneutics.

I've shown you where verse 2 identifies the clothing as "bodily". If you are able to produce anything in verses 1 - 10 which suggests that clothing is not bodily, but having to do with righteousness, please do.

 

[Episkopos]

I'm not seeing any words to indicate "naked" and "clothed" have anything to do with righteousness in this passage, but clear reference in verse 2 to what kind of clothing to which Paul is referring: A HOUSE BODY.

What you are doing is adding to Scripture an idea Paul absolutely does not say: that the "house" refers to righteousness, and then after introducing this ghost, you are chiding me for refusing to become a ghost chaser, which is not fair and a violation of hermeneutics.

I've shown you where verse 2 identifies the clothing as "bodily". If you are able to produce anything in verses 1 - 10 which suggests that clothing is not bodily, but having to do with righteousness, please do.

When Jesus said to eat His body and drink His blood....do you think maybe there is a spiritual message attached to it? Or do you see a body as something to eat?

 

[Phoneman777]

When Jesus said to eat His body and drink His blood....do you think maybe there is a spiritual message attached to it? Or do you see a body as something to eat?

A spiritual application here doesn't change a literal application there.

Jesus also said to men they must become like little children - so when Paul says "study...that the man of God may be perfect", should interpret that to mean we should brush up on coloring in the lines?

Every spiritual application doesn't necessarily bleed over into another area of literal application.

 

[Episkopos]

A spiritual application here doesn't change a literal application there.

Jesus also said to men they must become like little children - so when Paul says "study...that the man of God may be perfect", should interpret that to mean we should brush up on coloring in the lines?

Every spiritual application doesn't necessarily bleed over into another area of literal application.

But you are making my argument for me. There is a deeper message that people easily miss due to a lack of understanding of spiritual things.

It is like when Paul says...that I might know the power of His resurrection. Now a lot of people will think that means a bodily resurrection rather than the power to walk in resurrection life here and now. So then the spiritually unaware remain in their fleshly strength because they can't conceive by faith of anything greater than that. These are satisfied with a future and religious interpretation.

How many are unwittingly, by a temporal and physical interpretation, are actually pushing the New Testament into the future and missing the grace of these present times....by a futurist tendency in the power of God towards men. The OT was prophetic of these times. Yet many believers are missing the calling by seeing the kingdom of God in a future physical context only.

 

[complete]

I would ask in relation to your thread topic of to be “clothed upon” this question. - The other morning I woke with these passages on my mind. Out of nowhere. The outward must be changed “glory to glory”; consider all the verses of that which is outward and that which is inward. What God says of the two. Corruption and “the incorruptible”...

Romans 2:28-29
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: [29] But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

2 Corinthians 4:16-18
[16] For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day. [17] For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; [18] While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

- Do we not wait for that which is not seen to be seen? That which is not manifest to be revealed? For that inward to swallow up that which is outward and perishing...passing away. Where is death if not in that outward Jew who circumcision in the flesh profits nothing but was a shadow of Him who was to come? His call to put on...be clothed upon...by that inward “hidden man” (the promise) he who is circumcised of the heart by the hand of God and born from above?

Hebrews 4:2-3 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it . [3] For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Romans 11:23
[23] And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Does not the outward Jew put on the inward Jew and then the saying is fulfilled “death is swallowed up in victory” by the “hidden man” of God? Death in the flesh swallowed by victory in the Spirit of God? Death in the circumcision of the flesh (which profits nothing) swallowed up by the circumcision of the heart by God’s hand?

I’m sorry. Hesitated in responding. You are so kind and I don’t want to offend you but want your input on to “be clothed upon” ...isn’t the inward man born of God, those born of God the topic of Romans 8:20-21
[20] For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, [21] Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. —not the outward but delivered into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

'For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved,
we have a building of God,
an house not made with hands,
eternal in the heavens.
For in this we groan,
earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened:
not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon,
that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
(2 Corinthians 5:1-4)

Hello @VictoryinJesus,

This really requires another thread: For this avenue of thought that your mind has entered upon is quite another subject to that which we have been discussing in 2 Corinthians 5:4, (though it would be a profitable route to travel down, i agree :)). For that which the Apostle Paul desired to be clothed upon with was 'our house which is from heaven', or the resurrection body, which is spoken of in 1 Corinthians 15:51-55:-

'Behold, I shew you a mystery;
We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump:
for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption,
and this mortal shall have put on immortality,
then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written,
Death is swallowed up in victory.
O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?'
(1 Corinthians 15:51-55)

* The words, 'clothed upon', are only used in 2 Corinthians 5, and only in this sense.
* I will start another thread, @VictoryinJesus, to discuss this avenue of thought with you, entitled 2 Corinthians 4, 16-18 'Outward' and 'Inward', for that is, of the verses you have quoted, the most representative of it (link) :- 2 Corinthians 4, 16-18 'Outward' and 'Inward'

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

I think he used those words to convey not doubt, but struggle, just as when he talked about the importance of keeping his body under submission, lest "after I have preached to others, I myself be found a castaway".

Are you suggesting a third resurrection option exists?

As far as i know, there's only one of two resurrections to which we attain, that of the righteous by "patient continuance in well doing" or that of the damned if we "neglect so great salvation".

BTW, you have a very nice smile and don't look a day over 45 in your avatar pic :)

Oh @Phoneman,

How could you do that to me!! :) No, my avatar was taken many moons ago on a special holiday, with Vesuvius in the background: I just haven't updated it. I do have one photograph of me, which I will try to put in it's place soon, I just don't do very well with procedures like that, inevitably making a mess of it. I am 70 years of age now, and have white/grey hair, but the smile is the same. I have known my Saviour since I was 12 years of age, but He has known me for a lot longer.

Praise His Name!
--------------------------------------

* There are several resurrections spoken of in Scripture I believe. There are two alone spoken of, which come before and after the millennial period for example (Revelation 20:5-6), the prior one being called the 'first resurrection', which was just the first of the two mentioned, but not necessarily the first in total. There is also the resurrection of the just and the unjust (Luke 11:24 & Acts 24:15) , and that referred to in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18. Paul I believe was desiring another. That is a subject for research in itself isn't it?

* Those commended in Hebrews 11, who were faithful in their generation, looked for a, 'better resurrection,' in which they looked for another country, a city made without hands - the New Jerusalem, which was the reward they were to receive for loving not their lives unto death.

* Paul was not of that company, but looked none the less for a, 'better resurrection' - out from among dead ones. He looked also for Christ's appearing in glory, when He too would appear with Him there (Colossians 3:4). That is a glorious resurrection hope!! :)

* These are just thoughts, which need investigating.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus

 

[Phoneman777]

Oh @Phoneman,

How could you do that to me!! :) No, my avatar was taken many moons ago on a special holiday, with Vesuvius in the background: I just haven't update it. I do have one photograph of me, which I will try to put in it's place soon, I just don't do very well with procedures like that, inevitably making a mess of it. I am 70 years of age now, and have white/grey hair, but the smile is the same. I have known my Saviour since I was 12 years of age, but He has known me for a lot longer. Praise His Name!

* There are several resurrection spoken of in Scripture I believe. There are two alone spoken of, which come before and after the millennial period for example (Revelation 20:5-6), the prior one being called the 'first resurrection', which was just the first of the two mentioned, but not necessarily the first in total. There is also the resurrection of the just and the unjust (Luke 11:24 & Acts 24:15) , and that referred to in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18. Paul I believe was desiring another. That is a subject for research in itself isn't it?

* Those commended in Hebrews 11, who were faithful in their generation, looked for a, 'better resurrection,' in which they looked for another country, a city made without hands - the New Jerusalem, which was the reward they were to receive for loving not their lives unto death.

* Paul was not of that company, but looked none the less for a, 'better resurrection' - out from among dead ones. He looked also for Christ's appearing in glory, when He too would appear with Him there (Colossians 3:4). That is a glorious resurrection hope!! :)

* These are just thoughts, which need investigating.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus

Interesting, though I'm satisfied with just two resurrections. I think a "better" resurrection refers to more jewels in our crown.

 

[complete]

Interesting, though I'm satisfied with just two resurrections. I think a "better" resurrection refers to more jewels in our crown.

Hello @Phoneman777

Where 'satisfaction' is concerned: to quote the lines of a song,

'If heaven never was promised to me,
it's been worth just having the Lord in my Life,
living in a world of darkness,
He has brought me the light.'

Praise God!

It has been good talking to you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Phoneman777]

Hello @Phoneman777

Where 'satisfaction' is concerned: to quote the lines of a song,

'If heaven never was promised to me,
it's been worth just having the Lord in my Life,
living in a world of darkness,
He has brought me the light.'

Praise God!

It has been good talking to you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Amen to that!

 

[farouk]

Oh @Phoneman,

How could you do that to me!! :) No, my avatar was taken many moons ago on a special holiday, with Vesuvius in the background: I just haven't updated it. I do have one photograph of me, which I will try to put in it's place soon, I just don't do very well with procedures like that, inevitably making a mess of it. I am 70 years of age now, and have white/grey hair, but the smile is the same. I have known my Saviour since I was 12 years of age, but He has known me for a lot longer.

Praise His Name!
--------------------------------------

* There are several resurrections spoken of in Scripture I believe. There are two alone spoken of, which come before and after the millennial period for example (Revelation 20:5-6), the prior one being called the 'first resurrection', which was just the first of the two mentioned, but not necessarily the first in total. There is also the resurrection of the just and the unjust (Luke 11:24 & Acts 24:15) , and that referred to in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18. Paul I believe was desiring another. That is a subject for research in itself isn't it?

* Those commended in Hebrews 11, who were faithful in their generation, looked for a, 'better resurrection,' in which they looked for another country, a city made without hands - the New Jerusalem, which was the reward they were to receive for loving not their lives unto death.

* Paul was not of that company, but looked none the less for a, 'better resurrection' - out from among dead ones. He looked also for Christ's appearing in glory, when He too would appear with Him there (Colossians 3:4). That is a glorious resurrection hope!! :)

* These are just thoughts, which need investigating.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus

Oh, I thought it was Wales in the background...

 

[complete]

Hello there, @Phoneman,

Re. Resurrection.

I believe that the resurrection hope of the Church which is the Body of Christ, which is 'the fulness of Him that filleth all in all', is not that expressed by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, of being, 'caught away into the air': but that it's members have the glorious promise of a 'calling on high' (Philippians 3:14). Instead of a raising of the dead 'in Christ' (1 Thessalonians 4:16) , they have 'an out-resurrection from among the dead' (Phiiippians 3:11). So 'forgetting the things that are behind, and stretching out to the things (that are) before'; if by any means they may arrive at that out-resurrection, and pressing towards the goal unto the prize of their calling on high (Philippians 3:14).

Their hope now 'in Christ' means much more for them than 1 Thessalonians 4 did for Israel then. They also are waiting for God's Son; their seat of government ('conversation' = Gr, politeuma - Phil 3:20) [already] exists in the heavens 'from whence we are awaiting the Saviour also - the Lord Jesus Christ Who will transform our body of humiliation that it may be conformed to His body of glory (Philippians 3:21). This is their 'blessed hope' - May the Lord speedily bring it to pass!

This is my hope and expectation, in Christ Jesus, as a member of that company, by the grace of God.

Praise His Holy Name!

In Christ Jesus
Chris