The unforgiveable sin ?

[Mungo]

That's fine. Quit wasting your time.

Stranger

Quit wasting my time by asking you questions that you won't answer?

I guess that's an option but this is supposed to be a discussion forum.

 

[BreadOfLife]

yes-imho this sin is forgiveable but almost impossible for repentence is required and that is almost impossible for most and impossible for those already dead and buried - twinc

You can only repent when you're alive.
When you're dead - it's too late.

 

[Stranger]

Quit wasting my time by asking you questions that you won't answer?

I guess that's an option but this is supposed to be a discussion forum.

I answered your question. Go back and read. I showed you where. It was covererd thoroughly. As I said, I think you did read. And you know you have no leg to stand on. So, you must cry foul.

Stranger

 

[Jun2u]

This post was taken from topic: "I believe I committed the unpardonable sin" under Christian Theology Forum

I believe no Christian will ever fall prey to committing the unpardonable sin in this modern age.

Mt 12:31-32:
“Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.”

The unpardonable sin was a special sin committed only by the Pharisees!

Mark 3:30 reads:
Because they (Pharisees) said, He (Jesus) hath an unclean spirit (attributed Jesus’ power to Satan rather than to the Holy Spirit).


To God Be The Glory

 

[twinc]

This post was taken from topic: "I believe I committed the unpardonable sin" under Christian Theology Forum

I believe no Christian will ever fall prey to committing the unpardonable sin in this modern age.

Mt 12:31-32:
“Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the wunpardonable sin was a special sin committed only by the Pharisees!

Mark 3:30 reads:
Because they (Pharisees) said, He (Jesus) hath an unclean spirit (attributed Jesus’ power to Satan rather than to the Holy Spirit).


To God Be The Glory[/size]

that was then - why not update and live in the present - so after all these centuries of claimed inspiration, guidance and indwelling by the H/S the fruits are division,deceit,deception,despair,divergence,differences,disputes,confusion, chaos - if ththis is not unforgiveable blasphemy what is - twinc

 

[Mungo]

I answered your question. Go back and read. I showed you where. It was covererd thoroughly. As I said, I think you did read. And you know you have no leg to stand on. So, you must cry foul.

Stranger

When you accused me of having read your posts (#38) but not admitting it - I had not read them. You should not judge others by your own low standards.

However, after you impugned my integrity, I did go and read them through, and - as I expected - they did not answer my questions.

Having wasted so much time I shall waste no more trying to dialogue with you on the matter.

 

[mjrhealth]

Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit in CONTEXT to what Jesus is saying about the Pharisees - is rejection of the Holy Spirit's guidance.

If this is true, there is going to be a long que of "christans" leading to hell.

 

[BreadOfLife]

If this is true, there is going to be a long que of "christans" leading to hell.

You're probably right.

 

[Stranger]

When you accused me of having read your posts (#38) but not admitting it - I had not read them. You should not judge others by your own low standards.

However, after you impugned my integrity, I did go and read them through, and - as I expected - they did not answer my questions.

Having wasted so much time I shall waste no more trying to dialogue with you on the matter.

Sure. You're baling because your integrity has been impugned. Ok. If you say so.

I told you earlier to quit wasting your time. Perhaps you should have listened then.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

You're probably right.

No Christians are going to hell.

Stranger

 

[BreadOfLife]

No Christians are going to hell.

Stranger

That's not true.
Faithful Christians won't but the rest will.
Matt. 7 is all about faithful servants vs. bad servants.

Matt. 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’
Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.’

 

[Stranger]

That's not true.
Faithful Christians won't but the rest will.
Matt. 7 is all about faithful servants vs. bad servants.

Matt. 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’
Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.’

Pay attention. It says 'I never knew you'. What a revelation that is. These were never believers. Never Christians.

Stranger

 

[BreadOfLife]

Pay attention. It says 'I never knew you'. What a revelation that is. These were never believers. Never Christians.

Stranger

Not true.
They very well could have had Epignosis (full, experiential knowledge) of Him and been baptized.
They were bad Christians who thought they were doing the right thing and discovered too late that they wound up on the wrong path.

What is your definition of a "Christian"??

 

[dorian37grey]

Wrong.
ALL sin can be repented of in your lifetime.

In context, Jesus was referring to the Pharisees who KNEW He was the Christ by the guidance of the Holy Spirit and STILL rejected Him.
They blasphemed by claiming that Jesus' power was from the Devil and not from above.

Like I said - most credible Scripture scholars agree with that assessment.

not this one
-- this is the one which comes "after -coming to Christ.
-this is the one which comes "after-getting the holy spirit

this is the one referred to in the story of a * house swept clean and then 7 demons come in
this is part of what john says in * ...
sins that dont lead to death ( already forgiven for the believer)
but dont pray for the sin that leads to death --****-unpardonable ****

this is having the holy spirit ; then walking away

 

[BreadOfLife]

Wrong.
ALL sin can be repented of in your lifetime.

In context, Jesus was referring to the Pharisees who KNEW He was the Christ by the guidance of the Holy Spirit and STILL rejected Him.
They blasphemed by claiming that Jesus' power was from the Devil and not from above.

Like I said - most credible Scripture scholars agree with that assessment.

not this one
-- this is the one which comes "after -coming to Christ.
-this is the one which comes "after-getting the holy spirit

this is the one referred to in the story of a * house swept clean and then 7 demons come in
this is part of what john says in * ...
sins that dont lead to death ( already forgiven for the believer)
but dont pray for the sin that leads to death --****-unpardonable ****

this is having the holy spirit ; then walking away

And, again - this can be summed up as final impenitence.

 

[Wormwood]

Personally, I think blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is very different than apostasy or final impenitence. Contextually, I just don't think Jesus is warning the Pharisees about persisting in unbelief. They were already without faith in Christ. It seems their attributing of Christ's miracles by the Spirit of God to the Devil was a special sort of sinful act that went beyond their rejection of Christ. This put them in immediate peril and that seems to be the thrust of Jesus' warning.

Moreover, it seems clear to me that Jesus is not warning of apostasy. After all, these Pharisees rejected both the testimony of John and the testimony and signs of Jesus. There just doesn't seem to be any link here between having the Holy Spirit and walking away because 1) the Pharisees were not believers and 2) the Holy Spirit was not poured out for believers until Pentecost.

Again, I think this specific text is simply dealing with a specific act of blasphemy. Those seeing the miracles Christ did by the power of the Holy Spirit and attributing them to Satan was a special kind of sin. Apostasy and persisting in unbelief seem to be very different issues that simply are not ever referred to as "blasphemy" elsewhere in the NT. Granted, both of them can lead to eternal condemnation (IMO), but I just don't think those are what Jesus is referring to with the phrase "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit."

 

[BreadOfLife]

Personally, I think blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is very different than apostasy or final impenitence. Contextually, I just don't think Jesus is warning the Pharisees about persisting in unbelief. They were already without faith in Christ. It seems their attributing of Christ's miracles by the Spirit of God to the Devil was a special sort of sinful act that went beyond their rejection of Christ. This put them in immediate peril and that seems to be the thrust of Jesus' warning.

Moreover, it seems clear to me that Jesus is not warning of apostasy. After all, these Pharisees rejected both the testimony of John and the testimony and signs of Jesus. There just doesn't seem to be any link here between having the Holy Spirit and walking away because 1) the Pharisees were not believers and 2) the Holy Spirit was not poured out for believers until Pentecost.

Again, I think this specific text is simply dealing with a specific act of blasphemy. Those seeing the miracles Christ did by the power of the Holy Spirit and attributing them to Satan was a special kind of sin. Apostasy and persisting in unbelief seem to be very different issues that simply are not ever referred to as "blasphemy" elsewhere in the NT. Granted, both of them can lead to eternal condemnation (IMO), but I just don't think those are what Jesus is referring to with the phrase "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit."

The only problem with that is it puts the Holy Spirit on a higher plane than the Father or the Son. All persons of the Trinity are God - so why would sinning against one of them be worse than sinning against the others? It is because the Holy Spirit is who guides us to repentance and our initial belief. The Pharisees were refusing the grace from the Holy Spirit to believe and to repent.

ALL sins are forgivable - except for the refusal to believe and repent.

 

[Stranger]

Not true.
They very well could have had Epignosis (full, experiential knowledge) of Him and been baptized.
They were bad Christians who thought they were doing the right thing and discovered too late that they wound up on the wrong path.

What is your definition of a "Christian"??

Read again. "I never knew you". Are you saying one can be a Christian, but Christ never knew them?

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

Personally, I think blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is very different than apostasy or final impenitence. Contextually, I just don't think Jesus is warning the Pharisees about persisting in unbelief. They were already without faith in Christ. It seems their attributing of Christ's miracles by the Spirit of God to the Devil was a special sort of sinful act that went beyond their rejection of Christ. This put them in immediate peril and that seems to be the thrust of Jesus' warning.

Moreover, it seems clear to me that Jesus is not warning of apostasy. After all, these Pharisees rejected both the testimony of John and the testimony and signs of Jesus. There just doesn't seem to be any link here between having the Holy Spirit and walking away because 1) the Pharisees were not believers and 2) the Holy Spirit was not poured out for believers until Pentecost.

Again, I think this specific text is simply dealing with a specific act of blasphemy. Those seeing the miracles Christ did by the power of the Holy Spirit and attributing them to Satan was a special kind of sin. Apostasy and persisting in unbelief seem to be very different issues that simply are not ever referred to as "blasphemy" elsewhere in the NT. Granted, both of them can lead to eternal condemnation (IMO), but I just don't think those are what Jesus is referring to with the phrase "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit."

And so, (John 3:5-7), concerning the new-birth, must mean it was dealing with a specific act or need of Nicodemus.

Stranger

 

[Wormwood]

The only problem with that is it puts the Holy Spirit on a higher plane than the Father or the Son. All persons of the Trinity are God - so why would sinning against one of them be worse than sinning against the others? It is because the Holy Spirit is who guides us to repentance and our initial belief. The Pharisees were refusing the grace from the Holy Spirit to believe and to repent.

ALL sins are forgivable - except for the refusal to believe and repent.

I don't think it puts the Holy Spirit on a higher plane. It puts a particular blasphemy on a higher plane. Let's just look at the text...

“Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.” (Matthew 12:31–32, ESV)

To me, this passage seems very clear. The issue is βλασφημία not ἄπιστος. Blasphemy is not the same as unbelief.

Blasphemy, verbal abuse against someone which denotes the very worst type of slander mentioned in Matt. 15:19 with false witnesses; wounding someone’s reputation by evil reports, evil speaking
Spiros Zodhiates, The Complete Word Study Dictionary: New Testament (Chattanooga, TN: AMG Publishers, 2000).

Also, Jesus solidifies this concept by declaring that whoever "δʼ ἂν εἴπῃ κατὰ τοῦ πνεύματος τοῦ ἁγίου, οὐκ ἀφεθήσεται αὐτῷ οὔτε ἐν τούτῳ τῷ αἰῶνι οὔτε ἐν τῷ μέλλοντι.” (Matthew 12:32, NA27) The word in bold is eipe which means to "speak, say, tell or answer." If someone "εἴπῃ" against the Son, they CAN be forgiven, but not if they speak against the Holy Spirit. So, to me, this clearly isn't speaking about impenitence because a person who persists in speaking against the Son is clearly not a penitent person. The issue is speaking and a specific type of speaking that is taking place in Jesus' midst...which happens to be slandering the glorious miraculous works of the Holy Spirit.

Again, I think to draw the conclusion that this somehow unbalances the Trinity is a completely unnecessary conclusion that has no bearing in the text. God just finds some sins particularly distasteful...just as in the OT some sins were clearly deemed more heinous than others because of the evil required in a person's heart to perform those deeds (like sacrificing children to false gods). It seems it takes a incredible amount of evil in a person to see a cripple miraculously healed or a dead person raised to the glory of God and slander the miracle by saying Satan did it.