The unforgiveable sin ?

[BreadOfLife]

Again, nothing in Matt. 7:21-23 is addressing the 'Day of the LORD', or the dead in judgment. It is talking about the entrance into the 'Kingdom of Heaven'. List all the verses you like concerning the 'Day of the LORD'. They don't apply to Matt. 7:21-23.

The 'Kingdom of Heaven' is not the Church. It is the rule of Christ on earth through the nation Israel. It comes through the preaching of the 'Gospel of the Kingdom'. (Matt.3:1-2) "In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.) (Matt. 4:17) "From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

(Matt. 5-7), known as the 'Sermon on the Mount', are the rules and laws which will govern that kingdom. And this 'Gospel of the Kingdom' was to Israel alone. (Matt. 10:5-7) " These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach, saying,The kingdom of heaven is at hand."

Your confusion is the result of what I call a 'big bag doctrine'. You don't differentiate between the different groups of people that Scripture addresses, or the different judgments the Scripture addresses, or the different laws Scripture addresses, or the different times Scripture addresses. . You throw everything in one big bag shake it up, it is all about one people, one judgement, one set of laws, etc. etc.

Yes, you educate on what you believe. But what you are believing is wrong.

Stranger

WRONG.

The people in Matt. 7:21-23 are told by Jesus - "I NEVER knew you."
This means that they are NOT getting in - and, this passage DOES talk about the "Day".

You really need to study the Gospel - especially parables, such as parable of the Ten Virgins (Matt. 25:1-13).

 

[Stranger]

WRONG.

The people in Matt. 7:21-23 are told by Jesus - "I NEVER knew you."
This means that they are NOT getting in - and, this passage DOES talk about the "Day".

You really need to study the Gospel - especially parables, such as parable of the Ten Virgins (Matt. 25:1-13).

I never said these people were getting into the kingdom. I said these are not Christians. Christ never knew them anyway. Matt. 7:21-23 does not speak to the loss of salvation.

These passages do speak to a day. Just not the 'Day of the LORD'.

Careful, don't be derailing the thread.

Stranger

 

[BreadOfLife]

I never said these people were getting into the kingdom. I said these are not Christians. Christ never knew them anyway. Matt. 7:21-23 does not speak to the loss of salvation.

These passages do speak to a day. Just not the 'Day of the LORD'.

Careful, don't be derailing the thread.

Stranger

What "Day" is it referring to??

According to YOUR own words:
"It is talking about the entrance into the 'Kingdom of Heaven'."

WHY would they be in line to get into Heaven if they're not getting in??

 

[Stranger]

What "Day" is it referring to??

According to YOUR own words:
"It is talking about the entrance into the 'Kingdom of Heaven'."

WHY would they be in line to get into Heaven if they're not getting in??

Go back and read my post #80.

Stranger

 

[mjrhealth]

The people in Matt. 7:21-23 are told by Jesus - "I NEVER knew you."

Lets explain.

You are a farmer. you have wheat needs harvesting. So you go out and hire some contrctors to reap teh wheat while it is ripe. Soon you notice that there are some there working who you never hired, no contarct.

Mar 9:38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
Mar 9:39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
Mar 9:40 For he that is not against us is on our part.

Soon teh work is over, al teh contractors come for payment each getting what was set, Than comes teh non contractors,

Excuse me sir, we just worked in your field reaping the what for you, and we would like payment,

Excuse me, but did I hire you, did we have an agreement, did I agree on a price for you to work, begone from me, I dont know who you are.

So simple isnt it

 

[Wormwood]

My point is that the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, the unforgivable sin, can be committed today. Your comments in post #56 indicate that it was only a sin that could be committed under the certain circumstances existing when Christ walked this earth.

What I am saying is, just as the new birth was needed for Nicodemus, so it is needed for us also. Just as the unpardonable sin was committed by the Pharisees, so can others commit it today.

But, as I have said, unforgivable does not speak to a loss of salvation or that one cannot be saved. It speaks to a certain judgment from God that is coming due to this sin.

Stranger

No, there is a big difference. Jesus spoke of new birth to Nicodemus and that same message is repeated in the Gospel for all. Moreover, Jesus goes on to teach Nicodemus that God so loved "the world" that he gave his one and only Son that "whosoever believes".... you know the verse. Conversely, Jesus' mentioning of the "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit" refers specifically to seeing the miraculous works of Jesus and attributing them to the Devil. There is no generic teaching here. It is a very specific condemnation for a very specific act. If you can show me how Jesus is referring generically to unbelief or something any of us can commit, Id be happy to consider your point. Contextually, though it is referring to seeing miracles performed by the Son of God and saying the Devil did it.

 

[FHII]

Lets explain.

You are a farmer. you have wheat needs harvesting. So you go out and hire some contrctors to reap teh wheat while it is ripe. Soon you notice that there are some there working who you never hired, no contarct.

Mar 9:38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
Mar 9:39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
Mar 9:40 For he that is not against us is on our part.

Soon teh work is over, al teh contractors come for payment each getting what was set, Than comes teh non contractors,

Excuse me sir, we just worked in your field reaping the what for you, and we would like payment,

Excuse me, but did I hire you, did we have an agreement, did I agree on a price for you to work, begone from me, I dont know who you are.

So simple isnt it

Wow... Sorry Mjrhealth. I am not following you on this one. You seemed to have chopped two separate parables and joined them together and then attached a third one which I don't remember reading. I don't ever remember a parable where an owner ever refused payment because they weren't hired.

One isn't really a parable, but something that actually occured. The folks casting out devils in the name of Jesus.

The parable about workmen makes a point that those hired last received the same payment.

Not fair in human terms, but Jesus is talking about heavenly things, and I believe the gentile church.its the same lesson as told with the prodigal son.

Israel spent some 4000 years with God, and now the same reward was going to given to the gentile Church. In fact, it was going to take prominence.

Furthermore, I am siding with BOL on "that day". Its somewhat talking about a future event. I don't mind it being called a day of judgment. I see it as so.

Judgment must first begin at the house of God. We are being judged now. Its ongoing. There will be a white throne judgment... But its more of a sentencing. And your many mighty works whether it be working in a soup kitchen or building the sistene chapel aren't going to matter. He's looking for faith. He's looking for those who seek the Kingdom of God first. The sermon on the mount begins to tell us how to do that.

But I degress... Mjrhealth... I am not following you on this one.

 

[Stranger]

No, there is a big difference. Jesus spoke of new birth to Nicodemus and that same message is repeated in the Gospel for all. Moreover, Jesus goes on to teach Nicodemus that God so loved "the world" that he gave his one and only Son that "whosoever believes".... you know the verse. Conversely, Jesus' mentioning of the "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit" refers specifically to seeing the miraculous works of Jesus and attributing them to the Devil. There is no generic teaching here. It is a very specific condemnation for a very specific act. If you can show me how Jesus is referring generically to unbelief or something any of us can commit, Id be happy to consider your point. Contextually, though it is referring to seeing miracles performed by the Son of God and saying the Devil did it.

(Matt.12:32) "...it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world neither in the world to come."

So apparently it can be committed again by others who are not of this same generation.

Stranger.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Go back and read my post #80.

Stranger

Yes, i forgot that you were a hopeless Dispensationalist.
That aside - Matt. 7:21-23 is about God's Judgement.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Lets explain.

You are a farmer. you have wheat needs harvesting. So you go out and hire some contrctors to reap teh wheat while it is ripe. Soon you notice that there are some there working who you never hired, no contarct.

Mar 9:38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
Mar 9:39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
Mar 9:40 For he that is not against us is on our part.

Soon teh work is over, al teh contractors come for payment each getting what was set, Than comes teh non contractors,

Excuse me sir, we just worked in your field reaping the what for you, and we would like payment,

Excuse me, but did I hire you, did we have an agreement, did I agree on a price for you to work, begone from me, I dont know who you are.

So simple isnt it

No - it's a very asinine understanding.

the people Jesus spoke of in Mark 9:39-40 are NOT the same people He spoke of in Matt. 7:21-23.
He spoke well of the people in in Mark 9 - but turns His back on those in Matt. 7.

Stop quoting the bible until you LEARN what it says.

 

[Stranger]

Yes, i forgot that you were a hopeless Dispensationalist.
That aside - Matt. 7:21-23 is about God's Judgement.

No one is denying (Matt.7:21-23) is about judgement.

To whom and when that judgement occurs is important.

Stranger

 

[BreadOfLife]

No one is denying (Matt.7:21-23) is about judgement.

To whom and when that judgement occurs is important.

Stranger

Yes, I forgot that you hold a bizarre view on many Judgments.

There are only TWO that the Bible speaks of:
1) Particular Judgement
2) General Judgment.

 

[Stranger]

Yes, I forgot that you hold a bizarre view on many Judgments.

There are only TWO that the Bible speaks of:
1) Particular Judgement
2) General Judgment.

Who says? And where does it say it?

Stranger

 

[BreadOfLife]

Who says? And where does it say it?

Stranger

We've been through ALL of this before yet YOU keep coming up with more and more judgments that simply are not Biblical.

We are judged right after we die (Particular Judgement - 1 Cor. 3:12-15, Heb. 9:27).
The living and the dead are Judged at the 2nd coming (General Judgement - Matt. 7:21-23, Matt. 25:21-46).

There are NO more Judgments.
ALL rewards and punishments are dolled out during those 2 Judgments.

 

[Stranger]

We've been through ALL of this before yet YOU keep coming up with more and more judgments that simply are not Biblical.
We are judged right after we die (Particular Judgement - 1 Cor. 3:12-15, Heb. 9:27).
The living and the dead are Judged at the 2nd coming (General Judgement - Matt. 7:21-23, Matt. 25:21-46).

There are NO more Judgments.
ALL rewards and punishments are dolled out during those 2 Judgments.

I didn't read anything about any 'particular' or 'general' judgments. Those are man made terms, which are fine if indeed they are supported Scripturally. But yours are not. You google many verses but give no explanation. Am I supposed to be impressed?

Explain why those verses you gave speak to a particular judgement.

Explain why those verses you gave speak to a general judgement.

Explain why all rewards and punishments are dolled out during these two judgments.

Stranger

 

[BreadOfLife]

I didn't read anything about any 'particular' or 'general' judgments. Those are man made terms, which are fine if indeed they are supported Scripturally. But yours are not. You google many verses but give no explanation. Am I supposed to be impressed?

Explain why those verses you gave speak to a particular judgement.

Explain why those verses you gave speak to a general judgement.

Explain why all rewards and punishments are dolled out during these two judgments.

Stranger

Stranger - we've been ALL through this on another thread and even in the face of overwhelming evidence, you insisted that you were right and I was wrong - even though the consensus of Protestant and Catholic scholarship agrees about the 2 Judgments. In short - I've already presented my evidence ad nauseam, to the point where even a 2nd grader can understand.

You can go on believing that there will be several judgments - but there are only two.

 

[Stranger]

Stranger - we've been ALL through this on another thread and even in the face of overwhelming evidence, you insisted that you were right and I was wrong - even though the consensus of Protestant and Catholic scholarship agrees about the 2 Judgments. In short - I've already presented my evidence ad nauseam, to the point where even a 2nd grader can understand.

You can go on believing that there will be several judgments - but there are only two.

I will go on and believe the Bible because of what it says.

You have given no proof that (Matt. 7:21-23) is a judgement of the dead. You cite man made headings, 'general' and 'particular', because that is all you know.

You're evidence is nauseous, so I am not surprised at your nauseaum. Indeed, 2nd grade level is your benchmark.

Stranger

 

[BreadOfLife]

I will go on and believe the Bible because of what it says.

You have given no proof that (Matt. 7:21-23) is a judgement of the dead. You cite man made headings, 'general' and 'particular', because that is all you know.

You're evidence is nauseous, so I am not surprised at your nauseaum. Indeed, 2nd grade level is your benchmark.

Stranger

Ummmm, let's hear what YOU think Matt. 7:21-23 is about?
Are these people being judged or not?

Which one of your 5 or 6 "Judgments" does it refer to??

PS - My evidence is "nauseous"?? What kind of nonsensical remark is that??
Maybe I should use smaller words that "ad nauseam" . . .

 

[Heb 13:8]

Ummmm, let's hear what YOU think Matt. 7:21-23 is about?
Are these people being judged or not?

That passage is referring to those in Jesus time, before resurrection. The seal is placed on you after resurrection. Eph 1:13-14, Eph 4:30. Believers in the church age are no longer under the law, but under grace. The law is for lawbreakers..

Matt 7:23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Rom 6:14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

1 Tim 1:8-11 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

 

[Heb 13:8]

PS - My evidence is "nauseous"?? What kind of nonsensical remark is that??
Maybe I should use smaller words that "ad nauseam" . . .

PS - The agape love that is in believers will never leave them, no matter how disobedient a believer is.

Rom 5:5 And hope does not put us to shame, because God's love (agape) has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.

Rom 8:33-39 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love (agape) of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36 As it is written: “For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.” 37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love (agape) of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

2 Cor 13:14 May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love (agape) of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

Col 1:3-8 We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you, 4because we have heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of the love (agape) you have for all God’s people— 5the faith and love that spring from the hope stored up for you in heaven and about which you have already heard in the true message of the gospel 6that has come to you. In the same way, the gospel is bearing fruit and growing throughout the whole world—just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and truly understood God’s grace. 7You learned it from Epaphras, our dear fellow servant,c who is a faithful minister of Christ on our behalf, 8and who also told us of your love (agape) in the Spirit.