Is there even a disagreement then? You gave the impression that you were questioning some or all of what I said in post #235.
The "watch rapture view"
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Is there even a disagreement then? You gave the impression that you were questioning some or all of what I said in post #235.
In your mind, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, you only see A4E being a type for the man of sin. While I OTOH see Judas being a type for the man of sin. Think about it for a minute. A4E defiled a literal temple, except 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is not involving a literal temple. How can there possibly be a connection? But when Judas allowed satan to posssess him he defiled his body, he defiled the temple of God(1 Corinthians 3:16-17)
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David in NJ
Well-Known Member
No, i was only seeking to encourage and/or agree with you that there is going to be a great evil unleashed INSIDE mankind that will bring about the unforgivable sin.
I think that Judas betrayed Jesus in his agreement to lead the armed men (of the chief priests and Pharisees) to the garden of Gethsemane to arrest Jesus when crowds were not around - because Satan had put those thoughts to do so into Judas.
I don't think that Satan literally possessed Judas at the time to do so. There are different points of view about that though. One is that Satan literally possessed Judas. The other is that Satan whispered thoughts into Judas's mind.
Allowed or however we might want to take it to mean, the text says satan entered Judas, thus, in my mind, equals possessed him during the ordeal. After all, how does a spirit being enter someone without it involving possessing them?
Luke 22:3 Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.
John 13:27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.
What I would argue is this, where I feel this argument can't be trumped. To apply verse 11 and 12 to the days of A4E is to then violate verse 4. It is not reasonable that all the words in ch 12 are shut up and sealed until the time of the end except for verse 11 and 12.
Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
Which has to include verse 11 and 12.
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
I agree with what you say above.
I'm not sure what Matthew 24:18 is telling us, but if we look at it this way then possibly it sheds more light on what Jesus is saying:
Therefore when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, let him which is in the field not return back to take his clothes.
Return back to where?
Therefore when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house.
The housetop of which house?
The word for "return" is also used for converted in some verses.
G1994
ἐπιστρέφω
ejpistrevfw epistrepho {ep-ee-stref'-o}
from 1909 and 4762; to revert (literally, figuratively or morally):--come (go) again, convert, (re-)turn (about, again).
Luke 1:16-17:
And many of the children of Israel shall he turn [epistrepho] to the Lord their God. And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn [epistrepho] the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.
Matthew 13:15:
For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted [epistrepho], and I should heal them.
Matthew 22:11-14:
And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few are chosen.
The field:
The one in the field (G68): ἀγρός ajgrovs agros {ag-ros'}
from 71; a field (as a drive for cattle); genitive case, the country; specially, a farm, i.e. hamlet:--country, farm, piece of ground, land.
The one in the field is not present in the sheepfold, nor in the church.
Therefore when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, let him which is in the field not return back to take his clothes.
Neither let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house.
If this is talking about the holy place that now has the abomination of desolation in it, then what is the 'clothing' and what are the things in it that we would find valuable enough to want to take with us?
I'm pretty sure that the 'clothing' and 'the things in the house' are a metaphor for something, but I don't know what.
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
IMHO What you say is trumped by two things:
(a) The fact that there are no chapter or verse separations in the original version of Daniel; and
(b) The fact that (though you seem to be flatly ignoring this and therefore failing to understand it), Markan Sandwiches are employed by almost all the prophets and Psalmists as part of their style of writing. Markan Sandwiches are an integral part of some prophecies.
You don't deny that Daniel is talking about different subjects in the book of Daniel, and prophesying about different things. So why do you deny and ignore the fact that Daniel is employing Markan Sandwiches, like all the prophets did?
PS: Another example of a Markan Sandwich used by Daniel is the closing statement about the activities of the king of the north (Daniel 11:45). MANY don't get this, and wind up interpreting that closing statement about the king of the north to mean that he planted the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain at the time that he came to his end.
So only IF you bear the above facts in mind while you read Daniel 12 will you then realize that Daniel is still speaking about different subjects in Daniel 12 - and one of them is still talking about the same thing that Daniel began to prophesy about in a previous chapter
- and the reason why God inspired him to do this is because the one subject compares with the same sort of thing that will occur again in the latter days.
This subject:
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
is the closing statement of the AoD of A4E, and it has nothing to do with the following subject, save the fact that the former became the type of the latter, which is written about here:
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.
There are also things about both the former subject (the AoD of A4E) that it has in common with the AoD of the latter days:
There shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time was true until the time of A4E's AoD - and it will be true of the time of the AoD of the son of perdition, which means that Matthew 24:21-22 will be even greater than the former, which had been the case till then (notice that Daniel 12:1 does not add "nor ever shall be" the way Matthew 24:21 does).
The Maccabees and the remnant who remained faithful to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and the form of worship He gave them will also be among those of the time of the Lord's return who were wise, and shone as the brightness of the firmament; and turned many to righteousness, and will shine as the stars for ever and ever.
The faithful remnant of the time of the Lord's return will have to share their glory with many otrhers who came before them, and whoever does not like that idea is probably not part of the faithful remnant.
Daniel 12:11-12 is the closing statement regarding a different subject to the rest of Daniel 12 - because it is closing the subject of the idol in the physical temple that was placed by A4E in the literal holy place of that physical temple
- and that AoD is the type of the final AoD of 2 Thess 2:4 and Mat 24:15.
(a) The fact that there are no chapter or verse separations in the original version of Daniel; and
(b) The fact that (though you seem to be flatly ignoring this and therefore failing to understand it), Markan Sandwiches are employed by almost all the prophets and Psalmists as part of their style of writing. Markan Sandwiches are an integral part of some prophecies.
You don't deny that Daniel is talking about different subjects in the book of Daniel, and prophesying about different things. So why do you deny and ignore the fact that Daniel is employing Markan Sandwiches, like all the prophets did?
PS: Another example of a Markan Sandwich used by Daniel is the closing statement about the activities of the king of the north (Daniel 11:45). MANY don't get this, and wind up interpreting that closing statement about the king of the north to mean that he planted the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain at the time that he came to his end.
So only IF you bear the above facts in mind while you read Daniel 12 will you then realize that Daniel is still speaking about different subjects in Daniel 12 - and one of them is still talking about the same thing that Daniel began to prophesy about in a previous chapter
- and the reason why God inspired him to do this is because the one subject compares with the same sort of thing that will occur again in the latter days.
This subject:
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
is the closing statement of the AoD of A4E, and it has nothing to do with the following subject, save the fact that the former became the type of the latter, which is written about here:
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.
There are also things about both the former subject (the AoD of A4E) that it has in common with the AoD of the latter days:
There shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time was true until the time of A4E's AoD - and it will be true of the time of the AoD of the son of perdition, which means that Matthew 24:21-22 will be even greater than the former, which had been the case till then (notice that Daniel 12:1 does not add "nor ever shall be" the way Matthew 24:21 does).
The Maccabees and the remnant who remained faithful to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and the form of worship He gave them will also be among those of the time of the Lord's return who were wise, and shone as the brightness of the firmament; and turned many to righteousness, and will shine as the stars for ever and ever.
The faithful remnant of the time of the Lord's return will have to share their glory with many otrhers who came before them, and whoever does not like that idea is probably not part of the faithful remnant.
Daniel 12:11-12 is the closing statement regarding a different subject to the rest of Daniel 12 - because it is closing the subject of the idol in the physical temple that was placed by A4E in the literal holy place of that physical temple
- and that AoD is the type of the final AoD of 2 Thess 2:4 and Mat 24:15.
Both are biblical types of the man of sin. Judas Iscariot had no political authority and did not cause his brethren to apostatize by causing them to worship God in a way not handed down to them.
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Hi Zao is life,
I don't think that the clothing and the things in the house are metaphors.
Also, back then and still so, I think the houses had flat roofs with maybe a parapet around the roof, that occupants of the houses would use their house top instead of yards, as there were no yards as the streets came right up to the front doors, in the tightly packed dwellings.
I think what Jesus was stressing is don't delay to flee to the mountains when they see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place (on the temple mount). i.e. don't spend hours packing up clothes and things of value like jewelry, money, and other things such a eating utensils, cups - i.e. things that a person might take on a trip.
The reason for not delay fleeing is that the authorities are going to quickly block off the escape routes of them fleeing out of Jerusalem to the mountains.
The persons who will have their escape routes blocked are the remnant in Revelation 12:17. The persons who flee right away are the ones in Revelation 12:14-16.
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
Hi Dougg
When was Christ caught up to God and to His throne?
"And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days." (Revelation 12:5-6).
When was the dragon cast down to earth? (because that's when he persecuted the woman):
"When the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child." (Revelation 12:13).
Is "the woman" literal, or does she symbolize something? How about the wings of a great eagle that she was given? Did the woman literally go flying away with the wings of a great eagle? What was the woman nourished with?
"And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent." (Revelation 12:13-14).
What was the flood? And what is the earth swallowing up the flood symbolizing? Are they literal? Or are they metaphors that symbolize something?
"And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth." (Revelation 12:15-16).
Who are "the remnant of her (the woman's) seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ"?
"And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." (Revelation 12:17).
IMO verses 12-16 are talking about things that took place in the first century AD, and verses 17 is talking about what has been taking place since then, and will culminate in the beast's war with the remnant of her seed (Revelation 13:7).
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