RLT63
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No you didn't make it clear. You implied something without actually saying it.
The white and red horses of the Apocalypse and their horsemen
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I'd say Revelation 6:2 is implying something without actually saying it - just look at what all the other New Testament verses mean by the word stephanos wherever it is used, and all the other verses in the Revelation associated with the color white, and you should see what it implies in Revelation 6:2 without saying it.
I thought maybe all saints who have posted in forums like these would see it once it's pointed out, because they're clearly not new at reading the Bible.
But maybe some of them have a very strange way of reading the Bible when they read it - always inserting a meaning they've already decided upon into the text?
RLT63
Well-Known Member
Well though you make it obvious by your assertions and the above statement that you believe that Jesus will allow the "dumb" among His people (like me) to be "tricked" into believing that because all other New Testament verses where the word stephanos appears, associate the word with the crown of honor bestowed upon those in Christ whose victory is Christ's victory, + what all other verses in the Revelation associate with the color white,
shows that the white horse of Revelation 6:2 signifies the gospel going forth conquering as it has always done - by conquering hearts - and its rider to be the witnesses of Christ whose power is Christ.
And according to your statement above, He will allow the dumb to be "tricked" into believing this, knowing that "the wise who understand" will "understand" that what Revelation 6:2 actually refers to, is an impostor | counterfeit | wolf in sheep's clothing | antichrist.
Well so be it. I remain thankful and grateful to my Savior and Lord that I may be counted among the dumb among His people by those who count themselves among "the wise who understand", who (according to you) do not fall for such a "very simplistic" interpretation of the Revelation [ which is God's and which the Father gave to Jesus Christ to give to all His people - to the dumb (like me) and to those who count themselves among the "wise who understand" (like you) ].
So bet it. Amen. Thank you Lord Jesus. I remain among the dumb according to those who regard themselves among "the wise who understand".
OK I haven't inserted a meaning that the text does not imply so I remain as in post #24 to you too.
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No Pre-TB
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I have 2 questions.
1. If the first horse is designated to be white, why haven’t you mentioned in your original post the white colored horse in Zechariah and it’s correlation?
2. The 2nd, 3rd and 4th colored horses are part of war, famine and pestilence. If these 3 are part of God’s “four sore judgments”, how is the first horse the Gospel if it needs to be a judgment of the 4? Ezekiel 14:21 for instance.
1. If the first horse is designated to be white, why haven’t you mentioned in your original post the white colored horse in Zechariah and it’s correlation?
2. The 2nd, 3rd and 4th colored horses are part of war, famine and pestilence. If these 3 are part of God’s “four sore judgments”, how is the first horse the Gospel if it needs to be a judgment of the 4? Ezekiel 14:21 for instance.
We can't compare apples with oranges and declare them grapes.
Zechariah 8
8 I watched by night. And behold! a Man riding on a red horse, and He stood among the myrtle trees in the ravine. And behind Him were red, sorrel and white horses.
9 Then I said, O my lord, what are these? And the angel who talked with me said to me, I will show you what these are.
10 And the Man who stood among the myrtle trees answered and said, These are those whom the LORD has sent to walk to and fro through the earth.
11 And they answered the Angel of the LORD who stood among the myrtle trees, and said, We have walked to and fro through the earth, and behold, all the earth sits still and is at peace.
The red horse and its rider symbolize that peace is about to be removed from the earth because of what the nations had done to God's people:
14 So the angel who talked with me said to me, Cry out, saying, So says the LORD of hosts: I am jealous for Jerusalem and for Zion with a great jealousy.
15 And with great anger I am angry at the nations at ease; in that I was but a little angry, and they gave help for evil.
Peace was indeed taken from the Babylonian Empire - the whole known world in its day - but at that time (when it happened), it was God who was instigating the removal of peace (in vengeance against Babylon for its destruction of Jerusalem and oppression of Judah and its people).
The verses tell you what the red horse represents.
Question: What was behind the red horse?
Answer:
8 I watched by night. And behold! a Man riding on a red horse, and He stood among the myrtle trees in the ravine. And behind Him were red, sorrel and white horses.
Question: What would follow Babylon's destruction?
Answer:
16 Therefore so says the LORD: I have returned to Jerusalem with mercies. My house shall be built in it, says the LORD of hosts. And a line shall be stretched over Jerusalem.
17 Cry out again, saying, So says the LORD of hosts: My cities shall yet be spread abroad through good, and the LORD shall again overflow with goodness, and the LORD shall yet comfort Zion, and shall yet choose Jerusalem.
So you have the white horse following the others. The white horse represents verses 16-17 following the removal of peace from the nations of the Babylonian Empire.
@No Pre-TB Ezekiel 14 isn't even talking about Babylon's destruction but about what would happen to the Jews in Israel:
Ezekiel 14
21 For so says the Lord Jehovah: How much more when I send My four evil judgments on Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the destroying beast, and the plague, to cut off man and beast from it.
22 Yet, behold, there shall be left a remnant in it that shall be brought out, sons and daughters. Behold, they shall come out to you, and you shall see their way and their doings. And you shall be comforted concerning the evil that I brought on Jerusalem, for all that I have brought on it.
23 And they shall comfort you when you see their way and their doings. And you shall know that I have not done without cause all that I have done in it, says the Lord Jehovah.
@No Pre-TB When you confuse apples with oranges you wind up using a magic mouse to highlight a prophecy and drag it out of its historical setting, dropping it into a folder titled, "The end of our Age and the Revelation".
Instead of understanding that the same imagery, metaphor, symbolism and even hyperbole that the Old Testament books are so saturated with is used again in the book of Revelation by way of Type: Babylon. Antitype: The nations before the return of Christ; and Type: Jerusalem. Antitype: The Church, many Christians wind up combining / conflating what has already happened with what is coming - just because the Revelation is using the same imagery, metaphor, symbolism and even hyperbole that the Old Testament books are so saturated with.
The horses of the Revelation are not the horses of Zechariah.
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ewq1938
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And Rev is but one book out of a bible inspired by the HS and white simply isn't always what you claim it is. You also have this false belief that a stephanos crown is not equal to a diadem crown and that it cannot be a royal crown. You pick and choose what parts of a definition to accept and AVOID commenting on the parts where it stated a diadem crown was a lesser crown then a stephanos. You will have to reject that dictionary/concordance to keep defending your own personal definitions.
No Pre-TB
Well-Known Member
There is much you didn’t post, and you didn’t understand my point with Ezekiel. Regardless, I’m not going to argue. I just wanted to see your reply. I’ll be leaving now.
Davy
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Your little tirade in Revelation, and outside Revelation, is COMPLETELY OFF THE TOPIC OF THE SEALS OF REVELATION 6.
The rider on the white horse of the 1st Seal in Revelation 6:1 is NOT LORD JESUS.
You have FAILED to recognize many other Scriptures that point directly to a FALSE-CHRIST COMING FIRST AT THE END TO PLAY GOD. Lord Jesus Himself gave the strongest example of that warning in His Olivet discourse, in Matthew 24:23-26, which is about a SINGULAR false one that is to come working great signs and wonders, that IF possible, would deceive even Christ's very elect. You have completely... MISSED THAT SCRIPTURE (or purposefully bypass it so as to push YOUR OWN AGENDA against the Scriptures.)
No Pre-TB
Well-Known Member
Davy, that’s partly true, partly false. Let me explain. Before the man of sin comes, the beast of the sea and its 10 horns come first. The man of sin doesn’t come until after they destroy mystery Babylon per Revelation 17:16
The man of sin has 3 horns removed when he comes, but in Rev 17:16, the horns are 10, and then horn with eyes does not appear yet. Also, the beast of the sea rises out of the abyss and we don’t see the first mention of it until Revelation 9. Lastly, the seals aren’t wrath. There are multiple ways to prove that.
If he believes it’s the gospel, I welcome his reasons why. Honestly, between you and Truth, I rarely see either of you two agree with anyone but yourselves. Just an observation!
Davy
Well-Known Member
The beast that comes up out of the sea, that is to have ten horns, seven heads, and ten crowns, is a KINGDOM BEAST. It is not a person. It is a system. It's what today's New World Order working is about.
And Mystery Babylon is about the "great city" per the last verse of Rev.17. That "great city" is about Jerusalem for the end. So the Babylon Harlot structure that will be in control of Jerusalem for the tribulation won't be destroyed until the day of Jesus' future return. That is what the Revelation Scripture actually shows.
The 3 horns you're referring is about the Book of Daniel, with the "little horn" coming to subdue 3 of the ten kings (ten horns). The Hebrew used there in Daniel does NOT mean the Antichrist will destroy those 3 kings, but subdue them under himself, like a 3 + 7 king structure over the earth. What PLAN by globalists today does that match?
Ever hear of the Tri-Lateral Commission, the globalist think-tank that has been drawing up plans since the days of Jimmy Carter to create THREE WORLD UNIONS (the EU is already established, the other two planned are the American Union for the western hemisphere, and the Pacific-Asia Union which is almost complete.) Thus I believe the 3 subdued kings will be over those 3 world groups, and then the 7 kings over seven continents (i.e., the seven heads, or "seven mountains").
And my main point to him was that the rider on the white horse of the 1st Seal is NOT about some 'antichrist force', with wrongly thinking the antichrist can't mean a single individual. Nor is it about Jesus, just because it mentions a rider on a white horse.
I have heard plenty wrongly preach the word antichrist simply means a spiritual working in the world, like a movement only, and not associated with any one person. Well, Apostle John taught differently about that, so did Lord Jesus and Apostle Paul.
I answered why I don't believe either Zechariah's horses or Ezekiel 14:21 are talking about what the Revelation is talking about, so I won't repeat what I said about historical context, or the rest.
But I can't know what you meant by Ezekiel 14:21 unless you explain to me what you mean, because your post is rather vague.
But I also never answered the last part of your question (I'm going to highlight it):
Why do you believe the first horse "needs to be" a judgment of the four? There are two witnesses mentioned in the Revelation, prophesying and bringing plagues upon the earth, as often as they desire. I'm not saying the white horse's rider symbolizes them (specifically) but those plagues that the two witnesses will bring are part of the judgment.
Throughout the history of Israel, God always had His prophets preaching His true message and warning Israel, Babylon and nations of their impending destruction at the hand of Almighty God - and there were always false prophets prophesying falsehoods also.
The gospel doesn't disappear from the world until this sentence:
"And when they complete their testimony, the beast coming up out of the abyss will make war against them and will overcome them and kill them." Revelation 11:7
Why do you think that the preaching of the gospel will not be symbolized anywhere in the seals, may I ask?
The seals seal the scroll, and whatever John saw when each seal was opened says something about what is written on the scroll - which only unrolls once all seven seals have been loosened - which is why you only read about the trumpets and bowls of wrath when the 7th seal has been opened.
Is there no gospel seen going out in anything written beyond the seals? If there is, then why do you think that the preaching of the gospel will not be symbolized anywhere in the seals?
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Revelation 1:6
and made us kings and priests to God and His Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
How the New Testament actually uses the two different words for the different types of crowns (what and who it's speaking about in each verse - and I've listed all the verses) ) is more important than how you want the New Testament to have used them.
Who are the people wearing the stephanos crown, and who are the people wearing the diadema in those verses that I listed (so as to make it convenient for anyone who sees this thread to find them?).
The New Testament authors' choice of how they used the words is more important to me than how any 21st century Christian wants them to have used them - and, no matter how inconvenient to how you want them to have used those words - all the authors of the New Testament used them in the same way.
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COME AND SEE THE WORKS OF GOD AS JESUS OPENS THE SEALS OF THE SCROLL
Psalm 66
5 Come and see the works of God; He is awesome in His deeds toward the sons of men.
Isaiah 66
18 For I know their works and their thoughts; it comes to gather all the nations and the tongues; and they will come and see My glory.
John 1
38 Then Jesus turned and saw them following and said to them, What do you seek? They said to Him, Rabbi (which is called, being translated Teacher), where do you live?
39 He says to them, Come and see. They came and saw where He lived, and stayed with Him that day, for it was about the tenth hour.
46 And Nathanael said to him, Can there be any good thing come out of Nazareth? Philip said to him, Come and see.
John 4
29 Come see a man who told me all things that I ever did. Could this be the Christ?
Revelation 6
1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures like a sound of thunder, saying, Come and see.
3 And when He had opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, Come and see.
5 And when He had opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, Come and see. And I looked, and lo, a black horse. And he sitting on it had a balance in his hand.
7 And when He had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, Come and see.
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ewq1938
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Kings wear stephanos and diadem crowns including the King of kings. You are trying to suggest there is this massive difference between the two crowns when there isn't. You are also wrong about how white is used in scripture. It can mean holy or pure but that can also be counterfeited.
ewq1938
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No, he does not do that. In Rev all 10 horns remain intact until the entire 10 horned beast is destroyed. There is never a time where there are only 7 of the 10 horns.
The New Testament authors' choice of how they used the words and what they associated the words with every time the words appeared in any verse is more important to me than how any 21st century Christian wants them to have used them - and, no matter how inconvenient to how you want them to have used those words - all the authors of the New Testament used them in the same way.
You've made it obvious that you think that, and you've also made it obvious that in the Revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave to His churches, He has "tricked" the dumbest of Christians (like me) into believing that because of the way all New Testament authors who used the word stephanos associated the word either with Christ or those who are His own, and because of the use of the color white in the Revelation, the stephanos crown on the white horse represents someone or some people who are servants of Christ, and it is the gospel going forth conquering and to conquer.
The rest of you are "the wise who will understand" that it in fact refers to a counterfeit, i.e the antichrist.
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Well there are 7 kings and the beast is the 8th king and is one of the seven, so if three of the ten kings are taken away that leaves 7 + 1 = 8 kings.
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