The works of faith

[aspen]

The way we describe faith is kind of funny to me. It seems as if we hold it in such high esteem - as if faith is some magical, unique experience that only true Christians can experience. In reality everyone who is willing to suspend their judgment for a period of time - long enough to learn a new concept, is exercising faith. Ironically for some Christians who seem to love their own opinions, it is impossible to force your opinion AND exercise faith at the same time. Jesus tells us not to judge 1) We have tremendously poor judgment AND 2) He is interested in our faith, not our opinions.

Faith and certainty are opposites, yet we treat them as synonyms.

 

[Prentis]

I agree, the obedience part is what some would like to compromise, though. The equation believe=saved does not add up.

Should we also compromise and let the deception continue?

Well said brother.

Here's a good example of the full equation.
Heb 6:12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Whether we call it faith and faithfulness... perseverance... patience... The equation is that if we continue in faith to the end, then God will justify us. The equation men use is 'I have believed, therefore I am justified'. So they have not finished, and they justify themselves.

Men deceive themselves and are deceived into believing God has a scheme to save us. This is a very deep deception; men actually believe there is a law, whereby by doing this one thing, they become secure, and nothing can deny them this right, not even God. This is the way that seems right to man, but leads to death. Men make a formula that and by that formula they declare themselves saved. But this is wrong in the sight of the Lord, and it does not please him, because they are trying to force his hand, make him what they want him to be. God is a lion... And not a tame one! ;) He is a consuming fire. When men do this it is akin to Uzzah trying to steady the ark. Man is touching a holy thing. They are taking God's place.

There is no scheme... Nothing that makes us able to say 'there, I have fulfilled, and I am saved'. As a matter of fact, the moment we do this is the very moment we are lost again.

This is the way of sight and not of faith. It is a way that does not wait for God, but decides before God does.

The way we describe faith is kind of funny to me. It seems as if we hold it in such high esteem - as if faith is some magical, unique experience that only true Christians can experience. In reality everyone who is willing to suspend their judgment for a period of time - long enough to learn a new concept, is exercising faith. Ironically for some Christians who seem to love their own opinions, it is impossible to force your opinion AND exercise faith at the same time. Jesus tells us not to judge 1) We have tremendously poor judgment AND 2) He is interested in our faith, not our opinions.

Faith and certainty are opposites, yet we treat them as synonyms.

Good post! Good word! :)

Faith and certainty are opposites. Well said! Paul says 'I do not even judge myself'. When we are judging and making decisions we are exercising sight. God's judgments are unsearchable... They are deep as the blue.

We have two options. Wait for God's decision and his word on the matter, or make our own decision and have our own word on the matter.

 

[justaname]

If it is you choose to not have confidence in God and His word that is your prerogative. By having faith in Jesus Christ and the teachings given in the Holy Bible we can have confidence at the judgement.

1John 4

15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. ​

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16 We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.​

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17 By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world.​

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Why are we like Jesus in this world? Because we have been justified through faith! ​

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Jesus Christ is the just and justifier. Romans 3:26
Faith is what justified us. (past tense) Romans 5:1

It is through faith that we are able to please God, and through faith we receive the Holy Spirit. Once we receive the Holy Spirit, God begins His transforming work in us. None of this is an action of our own, rather it is a gift of God. Ephesians 2:8-9

 

[Prentis]

Yes. But we are warned that if we do not continue in faith... If we do not persevere... We can be cut off. The danger is to claim to have arrived.

There is no problem with one claiming God has saved him (past tense) and has rescued him, that he experienced God and walked by faith. But to claim the end of our faith before arriving there is dangerous.

The great danger is that it is taught today that once we have begun we have arrived. This is taught in such a way to actually make men stop walking by faith. And so the very teaching that makes us think we are secure is the one that stunts our faith and makes us draw back into the human way of living, by sight.

It's like a man decides to follow Christ, and then men tell him, 'there, you made the decision, you followed Christ'. What??? We are to follow Christ to the end. To make our mind up to follow Christ is only the beginning, we must then follow through so that our confession would be real.

 

[Episkopos]

Faith and certainty are opposites, yet we treat them as synonyms.

Kudos on this Aspen!!! (reps too!)

 

[dragonfly]

Hi guys,

I'd like to pick up a few more points.

The first few are to Prentis,

Yes! We must wait for God to comfort us and not comfort ourselves....

I think this to be a bridge too far, Prentis! It is okay to ask God for comfort. It's not a sin. :)

1 Samuel 30:6
And David was greatly distressed; for the people spake of stoning him, because the soul of all the people was grieved, every man for his sons and for his daughters: but David encouraged himself in the LORD his God.

Isaiah 41:7 So the carpenter encouraged the goldsmith, [and] he that smootheth [with] the hammer him that smote the anvil, saying, It [is] ready for the sodering: and he fastened it with nails, [that] it should not be moved.

Judges 20:22 And the people the men of Israel encouraged themselves, and set their battle again in array in the place where they put themselves in array the first day. Deuteronomy 3:28

1 Corinthians 14:3 But he that prophesies speaks to men [to] edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

God does what he wants, He is the one who quantifies and decides what pleases him.

But it's not a secret any more. Please think about this.

John 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatever I command you. 15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knows not what his lord does: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

The standard is to please him by faith.

What is your definition of 'faith' - as you used it in the above sentence, please?

Who are we that we would judge our faith is sufficient and pleasing to God?

Believe me, it is very simple. It's in the Bible, and, it's in Bible dictionaries. If you know what God means by 'faith', then you also know whether you are embracing His definition of it in all its fulness.

Who are we to decide when God is pleased?

Are you saying you live your daily Christian life with absolutely no idea whether you are pleasing God?

Rather by faith we must walk in obedience and do the works of faith, and then God will see and judge, and he will decide whether we are worthy to be counted among God's people.

Don't you think this statement is at variance with the end of Ephesians 2, and Romans 5:1 - 5?



Hi Johnny,

It was self justification that displaced Adam and Eve from the garden ...

Not exactly. Adam justified himself to God after he had sinned. It was the sin that led to his exile from Eden.

About compromise, of course you should not compromise, but all we can do is explain that if repentance means turning from wicked ways, and Jesus is The Way, then walking in Him should be the alternative. 2 Chr 7:14.



Hi justaname,

I am not justifying myself by believing what the scriptures teach.

Amen. But I'd like to recommend you stick with a Bible dictionary for interpreting scripture. :)



Hi aspen,

Faith and certainty are opposites, yet we treat them as synonyms.

If used correctly they are indeed synonyms. Because of my questions about 'faith' earlier in this post, I don't want to explain what I mean by that, but if I may, leave you with this one verse for the moment.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

 

[Prentis]

I think this to be a bridge too far, Prentis! It is okay to ask God for comfort. It's not a sin. :)

I did not say we should not ask God for his comforting... Much to the opposite. But when we ask God, we must wait for his response. God showed me this once; I locked my keys in my car, and I had NO way of getting it unlocked. I got on my knees and asked the Lord for help, I wasn't sure what to do... So I asked him to send me a good Samaritan who could open it up. A taxi showed up, he said he'd call someone, charge me 20$, and they could open it. I has no other option, so I said yes. By the time the guy arrived, another man showed up to the parking lot and offered to open it up for free... This man was the answer to my prayer. But I missed it because I took the first option that showed up.

Men often pray for God to comfort them, to show them the way... But before the Lord shows up, someone else does, to see if they are wise to understand the difference. And so they leave with the first option.... By the time the Lord arrives, they are gone, they missed it.

In this way, men seek God, someone comes and offers them 'justification' on certain terms, according to a certain scheme... And they accept it. But it is not the Lord who has visited them and made them whole. So they then follow a deception.

But it's not a secret any more. Please think about this.

John 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatever I command you. 15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knows not what his lord does: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

You're missing the point. Jesus said this to his disciples who had already left everything to follow him, lived with him, and experienced what he did.... If you take this verse and decide God is certainly saying this to you, then you are quantifying and counting yourself among the disciples and claiming to be as they are. You are judging, and not God.

The scriptures tell us of the experience of others with Christ, that we might have faith, and enter the same experience. It is there so that we would believe these things can be, not that we would declare that they are before the Lord actually makes them happen.

It's like reading 'And the Lord visited them' and saying 'Wow, the Lord visited me, it says here in the word.'

No it doesn't, it says he visited them. Now if you pray and believe, maybe he will visit you also. This is crucial, it is the difference between self-delusion and a true connection with God, of which the fruit is apparent.

What is your definition of 'faith' - as you used it in the above sentence, please?

My definition of faith is that it cannot be humanly defined. ;) That is, you cannot define the amount of faith that actually pleases God. Faith is to believe him and obey him.... But God makes that judgment, not us. Faith is X, it is the variable in the equation.

Believe me, it is very simple. It's in the Bible, and, it's in Bible dictionaries. If you know what God means by 'faith', then you also know whether you are embracing His definition of it in all its fulness.

Embracing God's definition of faith is absolutely meaningless. Dead serious on this. Embracing God's definition? God is not looking for people who nod and agree with him. Otherwise you might as well go back and agree with everyone who says that all it requires is to 'believe on Jesus', no obedience. After all, isn't that also agreeing with God's definition?

Are you saying you live your daily Christian life with absolutely no idea whether you are pleasing God?

Unless God personally comes and tells you, I am well pleased with you, yes. And pleasing God once is not final. The warning is that if we draw back, he is not pleased with us at all. Draw back means we began well... We do know that we please him when he visits us, gives us his spirit, quickens us. But that means we pleased him now. Unless now is the end of your race, you cannot judge yourself to have run well. Judge nothing before it's time.

So we see that pleasing God once is no guarantee of pleasing him again, or pleasing him in the big picture. Because of this, no man can justify himself before God.

Don't you think this statement is at variance with the end of Ephesians 2, and Romans 5:1 - 5?

This is a typical misunderstanding. People are unable to disconnect God being pleased with our first baby step and thus blessing us, quickening us, and giving us access to his grace, and us actually continuing and pleasing him with our lives.

Peter understood this difference... He said 'add to your faith', and spoke of the character required of God's people, and then continues...

2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

People cannot separate being purged from our old sins/being grafted into the vine and eternal salvation/security... But the Word constantly does. Paul warns us we can be cut off. Let the one who stands fear! You go one step further than many in saying that we actually have to stand, but then you go off the same error and say that there is no fear of the Lord that is necessary, no possibility of being cut off, and no humility in the face of our vulnerability.

If God wants, he can cut us off. Don't be fooled, God is not bound to a law that makes it impossible for him to reject us. He is God, and he has every right...

 

[justaname]

Dragonfly,

I have some verses that might help with the definition of faith.

Mark 25:36

36 But Jesus, overhearing what was being spoken, said to the synagogue official, “Do not be afraid any longer, only believe.”

Faith is not afraid.

Mark 11:24

23 “Truly I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, ‘Be taken up and cast into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says is going to happen, it will be granted him.

Faith does not doubt.

I will leave you with words from Paul, who was quite confident in his faith.

25 “Therefore, keep up your courage, men, for I believe God that it will turn out exactly as I have been told.

 

[JohnnyB]

We have plenty of examples in the word of people who lived out the faith, we've already discussed Noah, there was Abraham, Rahab, Moses, Jacob, Jesus, Paul and on and on.

These people did not simply believe, they OBEYED, they ACTED UPON their faith.

Will you SERIOUSLY tell me James was wrong when he said:

Faith without works is DEAD.

Who are you all trying to fool?

 

[dragonfly]

Do you think I'm speaking against the practical outworking of faith? If so, you misunderstand the motive for my comments.

 

[Prentis]

Do you think I'm speaking against the practical outworking of faith? If so, you misunderstand the motive for my comments.

No.

I see you're speaking for self justification based on a past experience and apart from a full attainment, and apart from a necessity to continue in faith to it's end. You go a little further down the road... But you still put the comforting of God before fully going through the cross. You still put life before a full death, and working of the cross.

You have made a scheme where it is harder to justify oneself... It does require some outworking of faith. But after some outworking of faith, you still justify yourself in this scheme. The error is still the same. Some take one step of faith, and justify themselves by it. You take a few steps of faith and justify yourself for it... You go further, but you still stop short. God's standard is not a certain amount. It is EVERYTHING. That is why we cannot judge ourselves... How can we say we've given everything? There might be more to give tomorrow! There might be more we have not yet surrendered.

The moment we justify ourselves, we have cut short the process of faith... We must make no judgment, only walk by faith until God himself comes down and makes judgment. And when it comes to where we end in eternity, we have to wait until we have arrived at eternity, and God gives us the judgment.

It doesn't matter how close it gets us, if we teach in such a way that we stop short of the actual goal of the gospel, what it actually calls us to, then it is still a counterfeit. We are still stopping before actually going to the cross. Peter followed Christ for three years, but when he tried to stop Christ short of the cross, Jesus still called him Satan. It is the work of the enemy to stop the gospel before it's fulfillment.

God calls us to a sacrifice of everything, to a full death, and a whole, 100% perfect and surrendered life. To lower the standard, whether to 90, 50, or 10%, is wrong and opposed to the gospel.

 

[justaname]

Prentis,

I am beginning to think our posts are falling on deaf ears. No one here is self justifying. It is the word of God that tells us we are justified.

It seems to me you have no confidence in the scriptures and you are attempting to strip everyone else of their confidence.

 

[Prentis]

Prentis,

I am beginning to think our posts are falling on deaf ears. No one here is self justifying. It is the word of God that tells us we are justified.

It seems to me you have no confidence in the scriptures and you are attempting to strip everyone else of their confidence.

The scriptures do not say your name, and they don't say mine! (Unless your name is John, Peter, Paul, but you get my point) ;)

People take the scriptures and attribute it to themselves... But have we had the experience they did? And even if we did, have we persevered? Because the very ones who tell us of the promises tell us we must endure.

Christ himself said 'when you have fulfilled all the commands and you come before my Father, say 'I am an unprofitable servant''. The opposite of what men do today!

Paul says the one who stands should fear! People say you don't have to fear in the name of 'trusting the scriptures', but this is to misunderstand the scriptures. Do you also put your trust in the fearful warnings of the scriptures?

Do you have confidence in the scriptures when they say that if you do not bear fruit you will cut out? Or that's the part of the scriptures we shouldn't have confidence in? ;)

People should not be confident in themselves. We should be humble and seek to attain the full stature of Christ, and not claim anything while doing so. This is the necessary humility for us to actually move forward in faith. We are not the ones who judge if we measure up to the standard, God does!

 

[justaname]

I believe when you are referring to Paul you are talking about the Hebrews passage?
Remember there was not chapter breaks in the original manuscript.

19 So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.​

1 Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it.​

For the other verse you are referring to,​

Luke 17

5 The apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith!”

6 And the Lord said, “If you had faith like a mustard seed, you would say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be uprooted and be planted in the sea’; and it would obey you. ​

7 “Which of you, having a slave plowing or tending sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field, ‘Come immediately and sit down to eat’? ​

8 “But will he not say to him, ‘Prepare something for me to eat, and properly clothe yourself and serve me while I eat and drink; and afterward you may eat and drink’? ​

9 “He does not thank the slave because he did the things which were commanded, does he? ​

10 “So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, ‘We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.’ ”​

It is faith that is being emphasized in both of these passages.​

From the author of Hebrews, he is telling his audience to keep faith, preserver if you will.​

From the Lord, He is saying that by following Law you are still unworthy. ​

2Tim 3:16​

16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; ​

17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. ​

No my name is not mentioned in the Bible, but it does not need to be.​

Also I have confidence in every aspect of the scriptures, even the ones that do not leave me warm and fuzzy feeling. It is the scriptures that teach us when we measure up. It is by putting our faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ!​

Finally I will say this one last time, my confidence is not in myself, nor do I justify myself; it is in God who is the justifier!​

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Prentis,

I appreciate your replies and I'm not sure how you have deduced your conclusion from my posts, since I have harped frequently on the need to be one with Christ in His death (= 100%) (in other threads). I suspect I could do more to explain what I mean by faith, as I would not use the term 'faith' for the easy-believism you seem to be trying to counter through your posts in this thread.

Again I urge you to study the definition of faith in scripture. By that I mean not 'what we believe' but this: the dynamics of how real faith arises in a man's heart. Once you see how it works, I hope you will also see how some of what you are writing seems to be at variance with Hebrews 4:11, Matt 6:34, Gal 6:15, 16, 17.

Blessings, brother. :)

 

[Prentis]

I believe when you are referring to Paul you are talking about the Hebrews passage?
Remember there was not chapter breaks in the original manuscript.

19 So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.​

1 Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it.​

For the other verse you are referring to,​

Luke 17

5 The apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith!”

6 And the Lord said, “If you had faith like a mustard seed, you would say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be uprooted and be planted in the sea’; and it would obey you. ​

7 “Which of you, having a slave plowing or tending sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field, ‘Come immediately and sit down to eat’? ​

8 “But will he not say to him, ‘Prepare something for me to eat, and properly clothe yourself and serve me while I eat and drink; and afterward you may eat and drink’? ​

9 “He does not thank the slave because he did the things which were commanded, does he? ​

10 “So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, ‘We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.’ ”​

It is faith that is being emphasized in both of these passages.​

From the author of Hebrews, he is telling his audience to keep faith, preserver if you will.​

From the Lord, He is saying that by following Law you are still unworthy. ​

2Tim 3:16​

16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; ​

17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. ​

No my name is not mentioned in the Bible, but it does not need to be.​

Also I have confidence in every aspect of the scriptures, even the ones that do not leave me warm and fuzzy feeling. It is the scriptures that teach us when we measure up. It is by putting our faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ!​

Finally I will say this one last time, my confidence is not in myself, nor do I justify myself; it is in God who is the justifier!​

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. (he says to those who have indeed been grafted in)

Men claim to faith apart from the works of faith... We are called to leave everything to be joined to the body, to have everything in common... And when we do thse things in such a manner pleasing to God, then he visits us. Men lower the standard to... Whatever they like, something that suits them. And claim to have arrived before God visits them. Men do not understand the reality that the Bible speaks of. When we enter faith, we actually experience the life the bible speaks of.

Noah was there before Abraham and before Moses.... By what law was he justified? What standard did he attain to?

Did he just 'believe' God... Does the explanation stop there? He built the ark!

We are called to build an ark of holiness. The Bible speaks of the faith that allows us access to the tools necessary.... It speaks of the power that is available to those who would believe, and build this ark. To those are the promises made.

Hi Prentis,

I appreciate your replies and I'm not sure how you have deduced your conclusion from my posts, since I have harped frequently on the need to be one with Christ in His death (= 100%) (in other threads). I suspect I could do more to explain what I mean by faith, as I would not use the term 'faith' for the easy-believism you seem to be trying to counter through your posts in this thread.

Again I urge you to study the definition of faith in scripture. By that I mean not 'what we believe' but this: the dynamics of how real faith arises in a man's heart. Once you see how it works, I hope you will also see how some of what you are writing seems to be at variance with Hebrews 4:11, Matt 6:34, Gal 6:15, 16, 17.

Blessings, brother. :)

Dragonfly,

What I am trying to point it to you is an evangelical tendency to disconnect what God thinks of us from reality... It disconnects who we are from what we do.

Example:

And having so made that testimony, the onus is on the believer to obey God, so that other's will believe what he said about himself.

This is backwards. We do not declare ourselves righteous or holy, and then have to live holy so that other's could see that we are. God knows but they don't? So whether we live it or not, God knows we are.

But this is completely backwards. God sees us for exactly what we are... Nothing more nothing less.

If a man were to walk perfectly by faith, and so filled with power and God's holiness, then all would see it. Those of God would welcome it, and the world would seek to destroy it. Such a man, because he truly is, can say he is sanctified. But then it is a testimony to what God has truly done, not what the man imagines he is in lala-land.

But the trend today is to claim much with little to no life. I don't know of a better way to say it; men claim the benefits and promises by reading the word, apart from entering the very experience the word speaks of.

Your stance is partial... You partially say we should enter the same experience, but then you partially say it is not necessary, it is just for others to see. It is real and our confession is real whether we live it or not is what this suggests. But this is so wrong! Either we live it or we don't, there is no consideration for our lala-lands and our imaginations with God.

 

[us2are1]

Heb_11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Noah was also a made a heir of the righteousness which is by faith... It is most interesting to see how this happened. He was warned, and had faith, so he was moved with fear, and built an ark. Here we see the results of faith; the works of faith.

And so we, if we claim to be justified by faith, must then have the same kind of faith. The process is the same for us. We are provided with a better ark, Christ! The work of faith for us is to enter INTO Christ, and abide there until the judgement (flood) is passed. :)

Excellent Thread Prentis

Good OP. It is refreshing to hear the truth and to know that others are diligently searching and asking God.

 

[justaname]

Prentis,

I wish you would have started with this verse in your OP! I now understand better what it is you are conveying, yet I still hold this to you.

Hebrews 3:6


6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house—whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

Our faith should be confident, because we are believing in the promises made by God.

 

[us2are1]

The scriptures do not say your name, and they don't say mine! (Unless your name is John, Peter, Paul, but you get my point) ;)

People take the scriptures and attribute it to themselves... But have we had the experience they did? And even if we did, have we persevered? Because the very ones who tell us of the promises tell us we must endure.

Christ himself said 'when you have fulfilled all the commands and you come before my Father, say 'I am an unprofitable servant''. The opposite of what men do today!

Paul says the one who stands should fear! People say you don't have to fear in the name of 'trusting the scriptures', but this is to misunderstand the scriptures. Do you also put your trust in the fearful warnings of the scriptures?

Do you have confidence in the scriptures when they say that if you do not bear fruit you will cut out? Or that's the part of the scriptures we shouldn't have confidence in? ;)

People should not be confident in themselves. We should be humble and seek to attain the full stature of Christ, and not claim anything while doing so. This is the necessary humility for us to actually move forward in faith. We are not the ones who judge if we measure up to the standard, God does!

Excellent

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Prentis,

I believe I understand that many so-called believers are not walking the walk. My example was not about one of them. One of the first things a new believer has to do, is tell someone they have believed in Jesus Christ. That's all I meant. Some new believers don't have another believer to tell. They have to tell a non-Christian. That's a fact of life. Then, they have to carry on trusting God and learn how to walk in the Spirit. And they might face fierce opposition at home. Some years ago in the UK, I met a beautiful ten year old Indian girl who was shining for the Lord. Guess what? She had been thrown out by her family for having become a Christian. So, did she give up her faith in Christ because that's a tough call? No she did not!

People are dying for Christ in a country I lived in, as a child. Do you think that doesn't move me?

Your stance is partial... You partially say we should enter the same experience, but then you partially say it is not necessary, it is just for others to see. It is real and our confession is real whether we live it or not is what this suggests. But this is so wrong! Either we live it or we don't, there is no consideration for our lala-lands and our imaginations with God.

I didn't say it is 'just' for others to see. The context of them seeing the life of Christ lived out, was the new believer holding to the testimony of Christ in fact. That is not 'partial'. It's not either-or, it's both - all the time.

What I understand, from my experience with the Lord so far, is that He has His own agenda in His dealings with us as individuals, and our lives have seasons. You know that the husbandman prunes the branch after it has borne fruit to encourage it to bear even more the following year. Do you know that if the tree doesn't rest, it won't bear a good crop? Do you understand that it rests in the winter? And that its roots go a little deeper because of winter storms?

When God brought the Hebrews out of Egypt, one of His top priorities was to bring them into rest. What did He mean? Well, He didn't mean camp just outside the Egyptian border. He meant that He was taking them out of their slavery to harsh taskmasters and hard work. He also intended that while they were resting from slavery, they would worship Him. In the Spirit, the place of worship is also the place of greatest freedom and release, and that pleases God greatly - to see believers being freed from hindrances of all kinds. It's a very real journey for those who embark on it.

I guess what I'm saying is that the wilderness journey afflicts every serious Christian, and sometimes we have no choice but to camp longer in some places than others. This is not a sign that we have abandoned the journey. But, we are in a resting place of God's choosing. It is in the wilderness that the Egyptian idols in our hearts either lead us to our destruction, or, we destroy them with God's help.

I'm sure you're familiar with these pictures. Considering how old they are, the same stories have been doing the same job of expressing God's heart, for centuries, and millions of Christians are not as confused as they could have been, without them. It really is not possible to stay in Egypt while also being freed from it. God is a geniuos!