The works of faith

[Prentis]

I'm dropping this one, df. I can't get what I'm saying across to you...

Blessings in Christ. :)

 

[JohnnyB]

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. (he says to those who have indeed been grafted in)

Men claim to faith apart from the works of faith... We are called to leave everything to be joined to the body, to have everything in common... And when we do thse things in such a manner pleasing to God, then he visits us. Men lower the standard to... Whatever they like, something that suits them. And claim to have arrived before God visits them. Men do not understand the reality that the Bible speaks of. When we enter faith, we actually experience the life the bible speaks of.

Noah was there before Abraham and before Moses.... By what law was he justified? What standard did he attain to?

Did he just 'believe' God... Does the explanation stop there? He built the ark!

We are called to build an ark of holiness. The Bible speaks of the faith that allows us access to the tools necessary.... It speaks of the power that is available to those who would believe, and build this ark. To those are the promises made.



Dragonfly,

What I am trying to point it to you is an evangelical tendency to disconnect what God thinks of us from reality... It disconnects who we are from what we do.

Example:


This is backwards. We do not declare ourselves righteous or holy, and then have to live holy so that other's could see that we are. God knows but they don't? So whether we live it or not, God knows we are.

But this is completely backwards. God sees us for exactly what we are... Nothing more nothing less.

If a man were to walk perfectly by faith, and so filled with power and God's holiness, then all would see it. Those of God would welcome it, and the world would seek to destroy it. Such a man, because he truly is, can say he is sanctified. But then it is a testimony to what God has truly done, not what the man imagines he is in lala-land.

But the trend today is to claim much with little to no life. I don't know of a better way to say it; men claim the benefits and promises by reading the word, apart from entering the very experience the word speaks of.

Your stance is partial... You partially say we should enter the same experience, but then you partially say it is not necessary, it is just for others to see. It is real and our confession is real whether we live it or not is what this suggests. But this is so wrong! Either we live it or we don't, there is no consideration for our lala-lands and our imaginations with God.

Prentis,

I think what you are saying is becoming clearer to me, it takes awhile for me to catch on sometimes. ;)

Would you agree that unless we have our own experience, it would be difficult for us to die the death necessary to abide in Christ?
We read the experiences, in the Bible, of people who have carried their cross already and then taken their promises and applied them to ourselves, without us being the ones who have died to ourselves.
We might stop short because we believe we have already attained. This might be why some will settle for lukewarm, would you say?

Thanks for this thread, it has opened my eye. :)

 

[Episkopos]

Prentis,

I think what you are saying is becoming clearer to me, it takes awhile for me to catch on sometimes. ;)

Would you agree that unless we have our own experience, it would be difficult for us to die the death necessary to abide in Christ?
We read the experiences, in the Bible, of people who have carried their cross already and then taken their promises and applied them to ourselves, without us being the ones who have died to ourselves.
We might stop short because we believe we have already attained. This might be why some will settle for lukewarm, would you say?

Thanks for this thread, it has opened my eye. :)

Hi brother!

If we exhibit the same faith as those who have had the experiences will we not also inherit the promises with them?

Receive a prophet in the name of a prophet and receive a prophet's reward! :)

 

[JohnnyB]

Hi brother!

If we exhibit the same faith as those who have had the experiences will we not also inherit the promises with them?

Receive a prophet in the name of a prophet and receive a prophet's reward! :)

Hi Episkopos,

The key would be "if we exhibit the same faith". When we are perfectly abiding in Christ, we have His faith perfectly. I am thinking that if we want to be in Christ like this, we will need to be at our weakest, dead to ourselves and this would need to be done through our own experience and not attribute those promises to ourselves until this is attained.

Is it possible to reach this level of faith otherwise?

Am I still missing the point? I really want to make sure I am understanding this. ;)

 

[Prentis]

Prentis,

I think what you are saying is becoming clearer to me, it takes awhile for me to catch on sometimes. ;)

Would you agree that unless we have our own experience, it would be difficult for us to die the death necessary to abide in Christ?
We read the experiences, in the Bible, of people who have carried their cross already and then taken their promises and applied them to ourselves, without us being the ones who have died to ourselves.
We might stop short because we believe we have already attained. This might be why some will settle for lukewarm, would you say?

Thanks for this thread, it has opened my eye. :)

Yes! :)

Men are usually looking for something that can comfort them where they are at... But this comfort makes us stay where we are at and not move forward. This is why the Lord chastises us; if we are not pushed, we never move forward.

The Laodicean church thought it was rich, and had all things... And it was lukewarm. One brings along the other. If we delude ourselves and we think to have arrived when we have not, we stop moving forward. By doing this, we do not arrive to the end of our faith... And we stop walking by faith.

Hi brother!

If we exhibit the same faith as those who have had the experiences will we not also inherit the promises with them?

Receive a prophet in the name of a prophet and receive a prophet's reward! :)

Yes!

One is the eyes, the other is the hand. Not both see, but they inherit the same promises if they both exhibit the same faith. That's also part of why we need each other... Without the eyes, how does the hand know what to do?

To come back to the Noah's example... Not all receive a vision from God. But a wise man, in Noah's time, seeing that everyone did what was good in their own eyes except Noah, would have joined Noah's cause to build the ark. For a man to join Noah and build the ark with Noah, it would of required the same faith as Noah. So this man would of exhibited the same faith... He gets the same reward. But God only gave the vision to Noah.

The modern standard is that if you hear of the vision God gives another man, you receive the same reward (this is what they do with the word). But it is when you enter this vision, become a partaker and also one who is part of it's fulfilling that you receive the same reward. :)

...and not attribute those promises to ourselves until this is attained.

That's an important point! Until we attain, we humbly claim nothing... It is one thing to claim to be walking at a certain level, if we really are, another to claim all sorts of blessings we have not yet been given. And even when we are walking as he walked, we don't claim anything beyond what we have done. God can test us tomorrow, and we can fall...

Otherwise we are like a runner who is leading halfway through the race and starts to celebrate his victory... Next thing you know we trip and fall!

We are to walk to the measure we have attained, but the moment we claim to more, or think we are special, God puts the standard out of our reach, to what we have not yet attained, or learned... and so pride comes before a fall!

 

[Episkopos]

Hi Episkopos,

The key would be "if we exhibit the same faith". When we are perfectly abiding in Christ, we have His faith perfectly. I am thinking that if we want to be in Christ like this, we will need to be at our weakest, dead to ourselves and this would need to be done through our own experience and not attribute those promises to ourselves until this is attained.

Is it possible to reach this level of faith otherwise?

Am I still missing the point? I really want to make sure I am understanding this. ;)

In the end God wants us to trust Him completely...like Abraham did with his only son. Of course we have a jolt of faith when we walk in the Spirit. But not everyone will ALWAYS be walking in the Spirit. So what do we do when someone (or ourselves) is not in a state of supernatural empowering? We continue in faith!! In fact a significant proportion of brothers will never have deep spiritual personal experiences apart from what the brethren experience together. But we can all cultivate an attitude of complete trust in God.

So in the end we will not be judged by our experiences...but rather to the measure of what we have experienced. :)

 

[aspen]

I do not believe faith and works can be separated. Faith is the space created in order to learn and carry out works - works are faith in action.

 

[Axehead]

Do you think I'm speaking against the practical outworking of faith? If so, you misunderstand the motive for my comments.

Hi dragonfly,

It seems to me that you are indeed speaking about the outworking of faith.

Hi Prentis,

I appreciate your replies and I'm not sure how you have deduced your conclusion from my posts, since I have harped frequently on the need to be one with Christ in His death (= 100%) (in other threads). I suspect I could do more to explain what I mean by faith, as I would not use the term 'faith' for the easy-believism you seem to be trying to counter through your posts in this thread.

Again I urge you to study the definition of faith in scripture. By that I mean not 'what we believe' but this: the dynamics of how real faith arises in a man's heart. Once you see how it works, I hope you will also see how some of what you are writing seems to be at variance with Hebrews 4:11, Matt 6:34, Gal 6:15, 16, 17.

Blessings, brother. :)

Hi Prentis,

This is a fascinating thread. I have read and re-read and trying to see where you have drawn your conclusions about dragonfly. I don't see where dragonfly has self-justified herself. I hope I'm not being obtuse.

I notice that in the "faith chapter, (Hebrews 11), the writer starts off with Abel. Obviously, we know that Adam and Eve did not continue in faith, but how exactly were they derailed?

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. (The word HOPED for is the same as TRUST. Obviously, you cannot hope for something from God if He cannot be trusted).

FAITH is the substance of things that we are trusting God for. We are trusting GOD!! That He is not a man that He should lie and that what He has promised, He will follow through on. This means that we trust He will keep His ALL OF HIS WORD - The BLESSINGS and the CURSES.

Skipping down to Abel.
Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. (Abel's offering was a manifestation of true faith in God while Cain's was not).


Before I retrace some steps with Adam, I just want to give out this this scripture:
Rom 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

Keep this verse in mind while I talk a little about Adam and his faith-less works.

GOD TESTS THE HEART OF EVERYTHING HE CREATES​

Gen 1:26 -- In the beginning Adam was created in the image of God. He had a total innocence and a pure heart with no impure motives (holy and blameless).

Gen 2:8-9,15-17 -- Was Adam given a choice to choose between the tree of life or the tree of death (Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil)? Did God say "You shall surely die" if you eat of the tree of death? Now, this is where the hearts of Adam and Eve are going to be tested.

Gen 3:1 -- Did Satan pervert and twist the Word of God? Compare what Satan said with what God said in Gen 2:16-17 (Indeed, has God said).

Gen 3:2-3 -- Eve did not resist Satan's perversion of God's Word.
Did Eve change God's words by saying "nor touch it, lest you die?" Did God say "You shall surely die"? Now we come to a direct contradiction of the Word of God. Satan entices and tempts Adam and Eve with false words -- another doctrine.

Gen 3:4 -- Did God say in Genesis 2:17 "You shall surely die"? Did Satan say "You surely shall not die"? (Hath God really said?) Could this be the first doctrine of Satan in the Bible? Is this like the doctrines of demons? Do demons carry out the plans, thoughts and schemes of Satan? Could a doctrine of Satan (or a doctrine of demons) be to speak contrary to what God says? (Hath God really said?).

Did Satan repudiate and contradict the words of God? [Please make note of this. Compare this with Acts 13:45-46.]

WHAT WAS THE TREE OF DEATH FROM WHICH EVE ATE?​

Gen 3:6 -- Notice, this tree was good for food, a delight to the eyes, and desirable to make one wise. Could this be the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and the boastful pride of life? Did Eve choose with her heart life or death? Did God say "You shall surely die"? (Does God keep His promises?

Gen 3:7 -- Is sin and death now working in them? Was Eve led astray by a different spirit? Did the serpent deceive Eve with another doctrine? Another gospel? Could this be like receiving another Jesus? Read Gen 3:13.

The serpent had deceived Eve with another doctrine. [You lose the likeness and image of God by having a rebellious and impure heart.]

So, lets pause here and ask ourselves something. What kind of STATUS did ADAM have with GOD?

1. First man created.
2. He walked with God and fellowshipped with Him.
3. Adam heard and comprehended His voice (given understanding)
4. Adam was given authority and dominion. Adam named all the animals of the air and land.
5. Adam received another gift from the Lord (besides the Lord, Himself) and that gift was Eve.
6. Adam was created with innocence and purity (pure motives).

Even with all this status, God said that Adam would surely die if he chose to eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (Tree of Death). Does your Bible show that God kept His promise?

What we can see from this is that God kept His promise according to His word to Adam despite the 6 bullet points, above. Adam disobeyed and Adam died. We see that God will follow through on what He says and there is no vacillation with Him. Has God changed?

For those of you that have walked with the Lord long enough to go through some very difficult trials:

1. have you found God to be true to His Word?
2. Have you found that God will bring you into trials to test your heart?
3. Did you at any time in your Christian walk achieve some kind of "status", where you were exempt from any suffering or trials or testing of your faith or fulfillment of any of God's promises in your life?
4. What conclusions have you come to in your walk with God as to why He is testing your faith and bringing trials into your life?

Axehead

 

[JohnnyB]

In the end God wants us to trust Him completely...like Abraham did with his only son. Of course we have a jolt of faith when we walk in the Spirit. But not everyone will ALWAYS be walking in the Spirit. So what do we do when someone (or ourselves) is not in a state of supernatural empowering? We continue in faith!! In fact a significant proportion of brothers will never have deep spiritual personal experiences apart from what the brethren experience together. But we can all cultivate an attitude of complete trust in God.

So in the end we will not be judged by our experiences...but rather to the measure of what we have experienced. :)

I see what you are saying, it's easier to be faithful when we are empowered versus He backing off the Spirit in order to test our faith. At least I see it as a test, practicing faith leads to faithfulness.

At whatever measure God has given to us, we are responsible for it. Those given more, more will be expected.

Cool. ;)

 

[Episkopos]

I see what you are saying, it's easier to be faithful when we are empowered versus He backing off the Spirit in order to test our faith. At least I see it as a test, practicing faith leads to faithfulness.

At whatever measure God has given to us, we are responsible for it. Those given more, more will be expected.

Cool. ;)

Right on!!! :)