The Wrath of the Lord

[keras]

The Sixth Seal IS the Day of wrath. Revelation 6:17


ATP, you say we won't be here - raptured, I presume, yet most of your quotes above tell of shelter, not removal. And the usual John14:1-4 scripture trotted out by raptureists, actually disproves that theory, as Jesus will be on earth when He comes back.


Titus 2:13 is good; we wait, [on earth] for the blessed hope of Jesus' appearing.. ​

 

[ATP]

The Sixth Seal IS the Day of wrath. Revelation 6:17


ATP, you say we won't be here - raptured, I presume, yet most of your quotes above tell of shelter, not removal. And the usual John14:1-4 scripture trotted out by raptureists, actually disproves that theory, as Jesus will be on earth when He comes back.


Titus 2:13 is good; we wait, [on earth] for the blessed hope of Jesus' appearing.. ​

But scripture tells us that God's wrath is no longer on us at the moment we give our life to Jesus Christ. You ignored those important scriptures.

 

[ATP]

ATP, you say we won't be here - raptured, I presume, yet most of your quotes above tell of shelter, not removal. And the usual John14:1-4 scripture trotted out by raptureists, actually disproves that theory, as Jesus will be on earth when He comes back.

These especially are rapture scriptures...

Isa 26:20 NIV Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by.

Matt 17:4 NIV Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.”

John 14:1-4 NIV "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going."

 

[keras]

But scripture tells us that God's wrath is no longer on us at the moment we give our life to Jesus Christ. You ignored those important scriptures.

Quite right, we are under His PROTECTION. John 17:15
The 3 scriptures you quote in #23 DO NOT say the Lord is going to take anyone to heaven.
This whole issue of 'rapture to heaven or protection on earth', has been well gone over on another thread. Simply stated, there are a lot of verses about protection and none that say removal. Our destiny is not to join the angels, it is carry out the tasks individually and corporately assigned to us.

 

[ATP]

The 3 scriptures you quote in #23 DO NOT say the Lord is going to take anyone to heaven.

Well, let's take a closer look at these three passages as we should...

(1) Isa 26:20 NIV Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by.

(2) Matt 17:4 NIV Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.”

(3) John 14:1-4 NIV "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going."

(1) Answer: Isa 26:19-21 NIV But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy. Your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead. 20 Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by. 21 See, the LORD is coming out of his dwelling to punish the people of the earth for their sins. The earth will disclose the blood shed upon her; she will conceal her slain no longer.

As we can see here, Isa 26:19 NIV speaks of the first resurrection with language such as (But your dead will live, their bodies will rise, you who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy, the earth will give birth to her dead.)

As we can see here, Isa 26:20 NIV the rapture follows the first resurrection with language such as (Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while) We also see these rooms spoken of in Matt 17:4 NIV and John 14:1-4 NIV. I will get to that soon.

As we can also see here, Isa 26:21 NIV speaks about the power and justice of heaven being moved and God's wrath being poured out on earth and nonbelievers that remain after rapture with language such as (the LORD coming out of his dwelling to punish the people of the earth for their sins, the earth will disclose the blood shed upon her)

(2) Answer: In Matt 17:4 NIV, we see a vision described here. The word shelter here is Greek for a tent, booth, tabernacle, abode, dwelling, mansion or habitation. The Transfiguration is a vision of the first resurrection, rapture and the feast of tabernacles Matt 17:4 NIV. Moses represents those who are dead in Christ. Elijah represents those who are alive at rapture, and Jesus represents himself in Matt 17:2 NIV. Let's take a look at the definition of transfigure to get a better idea...

verb (used with object), transfigured, transfiguring.
1. to change in outward form or appearance; transform.
2. to change so as to glorify or exalt.

1 Cor 15:50-54 NIV I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

Matt 16:27-28 NIV For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done. 28 I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

Matt 17:1-4 NIV After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus. 4 Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters--one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah."

Lev 23:33-34 NIV The LORD said to Moses, 34 "Say to the Israelites: 'On the fifteenth day of the seventh month the LORD's Feast of Tabernacles begins, and it lasts for seven days.

Psalm 27:5 NIV For in the day of trouble he will keep me safe in his dwelling; he will hide me in the shelter of his sacred tent and set me high upon a rock.

Zeph 2:3 NIV Seek the LORD, all you humble of the land, you who do what he commands. Seek righteousness, seek humility; perhaps you will be sheltered on the day of the LORD's anger.

tabernacle / noun
1. any place or house of worship, especially one designed for a large congregation.
5. a temporary dwelling or shelter, as a tent or hut.
6. a dwelling place.

(3) Answer: John 14:1-4 NIV "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going."

As we can see here, this passage also speaks of rooms and speaks of rapture with language such as (I am going there to prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am, you know the way to the place where I am going.") Where is Jesus right now? He resides in the third heaven, and that is where we will be at the first resurrection and rapture. We will be able to dwell in the third heaven by then because we will obtain our resurrected bodies and will be able to dwell in His holiness with Him.

- ATP

 

[keras]

OK, ATP.
I have learned that with other Christians who have the same grip onto the rapture theory as you do; there is nothing I can say, no verses refuting it that I present, no proofs of the truth of God's plans, will ever make them even consider it won't happen. So refuting it just causes upset and only as events unfold will the truth become apparent to them.
This subject is a thread diversion, anyway. Please look at the older threads on the rapture.

Re the Wrath of the Lord. This will happen, prophecy vividly describes this terrible worldwide disaster. We should know about it, we should not be in the dark.

 

[ATP]

OK, ATP.
I have learned that with other Christians who have the same grip onto the rapture theory as you do; there is nothing I can say, no verses refuting it that I present, no proofs of the truth of God's plans, will ever make them even consider it won't happen.

If you study the seven feasts of the Lord we can see the first four feasts have already been fulfilled. The only feasts left are the feast of trumpets, the day of atonement and the feast of tabernacles.

1. In the days of awe, we see the feast of trumpets which is rapture being fulfilled first Joel 2:1-2 NIV, Matt 24:31 NIV, 1 Cor 15:52 NIV, Rev 4:1 NIV..
2. then the day of atonement is fulfilled seven years later when Jesus comes back and puts his feet on the Mount of Olives Zech 14:4 NIV.
3. Five days later after that, the feast of tabernacles will fulfill the 1,000 year reign w/Christ Rev 20:6 NIV.

This is how God works. He doesn't work off the Gregorian calendar, rather His 360 day calendar. - ATP

 

[keras]

Actually the first five feasts are fulfilled. Pentecost in Acts 2. The next is Yom Teruah, only 3 weeks away. Fulfillment in 2015? Many people think it's possible!
Your 4 quotes that you think prove a rapture, make me laugh. NONE of them say anything about people today going to heaven.

The feast of Atonement, will come 10 days after the disaster of Trumpets. It will be this; Ezekiel 20:34-38
Tabernacle's, that means 'God with us', comes years later, at the Return of Jesus.

 

[ATP]

Actually the first five feasts are fulfilled. Pentecost in Acts 2.

When was the feast of trumpets fulfilled?

 

[keras]

When was the feast of trumpets fulfilled?

Sorry, my mistake, I meant the first four feasts are fulfilled.
Trumpets, Atonement and Tabernacles are the three fall feasts that all remain to be fulfilled.

 

[ATP]

Sorry, my mistake, I meant the first four feasts are fulfilled.
Trumpets, Atonement and Tabernacles are the three fall feasts that all remain to be fulfilled.

When do you believe the sixth seal rapture will open.

 

[keras]

When do you believe the sixth seal rapture will open.

No mention of any kind of removal of anyone at the Sixth Seal. That Day will come upon everyone in the world. Rev 6:15, Luke 21:35

I expect that terrible Day any time soon. The Lord promises protection for His people; all who call upon His Name. Acts 2:21
However it will come on an Appointed Day and the next likely one is in 3 weeks, the Day of Trumpets.
Be prepared! Isaiah 24

 

[ATP]

No mention of any kind of removal of anyone at the Sixth Seal. That Day will come upon everyone in the world. Rev 6:15, Luke 21:35

I believe Luke 21:34-35 NIV refers to nonbelievers with carousing, drunkenness and anxieties, similar to Matt 24:36-41 NIV. In Rev 6:15 NIV, the list of people there are nonbelievers. Christ tells us that believers are excited about His return, and nonbelievers will be the one's fearing His second coming Luke 21:28 NIV, 2 Tim 4:7-8 NIV, Titus 2:13 NIV.

If we take a look at the signs in the sun, moon, stars and earthquake we can see that these passages are referring to the same event. I see the rapture in Matt 24:29-31 ESV. We also see the rapture in Matt 24:40-41 NIV.

Joel 2:31 NIV The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.

Matt 24:29-31 ESV "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Luke 21:25-28 NIV “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

Acts 2:20 NIV The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.

Rev 6:12-14 NIV I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

 

[keras]

ATP you have mixed up verses from the Day of the Lord's wrath with the Return in glory.
Is the Return a 'dreadful Day? Only Matthew 24:29-31 refers to the Return, the rest are the forthcoming Day of wrath against the nations. Isaiah 63:1-6, Hab. 3:12

Re a rapture, what the Lord has promised is protection for His people during His Day of fiery wrath, not removal. The same as He did for the three men in the fiery furnace. Isaiah 43:2
We Christians have the Lord's work to do on earth, no skiving off allowed.

 

[ATP]

ATP you have mixed up verses from the Day of the Lord's wrath with the Return in glory.
Is the Return a 'dreadful Day? Only Matthew 24:29-31 refers to the Return, the rest are the forthcoming Day of wrath against the nations. Isaiah 63:1-6, Hab. 3:12

Re a rapture, what the Lord has promised is protection for His people during His Day of fiery wrath, not removal. The same as He did for the three men in the fiery furnace. Isaiah 43:2
We Christians have the Lord's work to do on earth, no skiving off allowed.

Not sure I follow you. The sun, moon, stars and earthquake aren't connected there?

 

[keras]

Not sure I follow you. The sun, moon, stars and earthquake aren't connected there?

Sun signs- at the Day of wrath, first; 7 times brighter; Isaiah 30:26, then darkened by the approaching CME mass.
at the Return, both sun and moon darkened.
Moon signs- DoW, blood red, caused by the superheated hydrogen of this CME striking the moon
Return, no light.
Stars - DoW, falling like ripe figs. a meteor shower
Return, another meteor shower.
Earthquakes- DoW, Worldwide earthquakes, maybe a tectonic plate shift and the earth moved from her place. Isaiah 13:13
Return, not mentioned in Matthew 24:29-31 or Rev. 19:11-21. The 7th Bowl has an e/q; Rev 16:18

The Lord's terrible and shocking Day of vengeance and wrath against the nations, is the next event we can expect. It will be about 20 years before the world is prepared for the Return.

 

[ATP]

Sun signs- at the Day of wrath, first; 7 times brighter; Isaiah 30:26, then darkened by the approaching CME mass.
at the Return, both sun and moon darkened.
Moon signs- DoW, blood red, caused by the superheated hydrogen of this CME striking the moon
Return, no light.
Stars - DoW, falling like ripe figs. a meteor shower
Return, another meteor shower.
Earthquakes- DoW, Worldwide earthquakes, maybe a tectonic plate shift and the earth moved from her place. Isaiah 13:13
Return, not mentioned in Matthew 24:29-31 or Rev. 19:11-21. The 7th Bowl has an e/q; Rev 16:18

The Lord's terrible and shocking Day of vengeance and wrath against the nations, is the next event we can expect. It will be about 20 years before the world is prepared for the Return.

But these same signs, sun moon stars etc.. are in Matt 24:29-31 ESV. This is a rapture scripture keras.

 

[keras]

But these same signs, sun moon stars etc.. are in Matt 24:29-31 ESV. This is a rapture scripture keras.

In Matthew 24:29-31, Jesus is coming to reign on earth for 1000 years. The saints killed for their faith are resurrected. There is no rapture there, or anywhere else.
Unless you can present a scripture that actually says people will be taken to heaven, the rapture theory remains false teaching.

RE signs: nothing precludes things like a darkened sun from re-occurring. That happened at the Crucifixion too. And at the Exodus.

 

[ATP]

In Matthew 24:29-31, Jesus is coming to reign on earth for 1000 years.

I don't believe that passage is about the Feast of Tabernacles. Rapture and the Second Coming are two different events. The Second Coming appears on the Day of Atonement when Jesus lands His feet on the Mount of Olives Zech 14:4 NIV.

Matt 24:30-31 ESV and 1 Thess 4:16 NIV says the Son of Man will come down on the clouds of heaven with a loud trumpet call. These are both rapture scriptures. The trumpet call can also be found in 1 Cor 15:52 at first resurrection. First resurrection comes first, then rapture. I believe this trumpet call will fulfill the Feast of Trumpets.

Matt 24:29-31 ESV "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1 Thess 4:14-17 NIV For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

1 Cor 15:50-54 NIV I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

 

[keras]

I have a Bible, no need to type out scriptures, especially when they don't prove your point anyway.
They all say Jesus is coming down to earth and the 1 Cor 15 quote refers to the dead being raised as in Rev. 20:4.

If a rapture to heaven is all you have been taught, by people you trust, then I know how difficult it is to have that belief challenged.
Just remember the Lord's Prayer.....Thy will be done ON EARTH, as it is in heaven....

All will be made clear, to everyone; to the ungodly, as they die and to the righteous as they go to live in the Holy Land.