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The Wrath of the Lord

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by keras, Aug 17, 2015.

  1. Wormwood

    Wormwood Chaps Staff Member

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    I agree with most of what you have said, but I disagree with the final sentence. If the basis of this view is Romans 11:26, then I would not interpret that verse the same way. I think the focus of Romans 9-11 makes it clear that there is no special plan or dispensation for Israel other than faith in Christ (which is God's plan for all people). Paul's discussion of "all Israel" being saved has nothing to do with end times (there is nothing in this context that gives any indication that Paul is referring to eschatology here). Rather, Paul is talking about God's plan to save Israel which is that they were hardened at first to introduce full salvation to the Gentiles...and now by jealously they too will come to faith in Christ. This is the means by which all Israelites are saved (not every Israelite, as Paul also makes clear in this context (Romans 11:17).

    This plan was in effect in Paul's day and continues to today. So, in my estimation, this has nothing to do with a future time when the whole nation of Israel will be saved. That does not fit with the context at all. It is not about a future turning of the entire nation, but a present plan that God has enacted: All Gentiles come to salvation by means of Israel's hardening and all Israelites come to salvation through jealousy of the Gentiles salvation.
     
  2. Marcus O'Reillius

    Marcus O'Reillius Active Member

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    Alright and fair enough.

    I take a different approach whereas I view the Millennium as the process whereby current, unbelieving Israel comes to Salvation in Christ Jesus; whom they reject.
     
  3. ATP

    ATP New Member

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    Ok Mr. messenger. There does seem to be a change of venue. The angels, 24 elders and four living creatures are in heaven...
     
  4. keras

    keras Writer of Bible study guides

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    What is delusional is a belief in something that isn't mentioned in the Bible, i.e: a rapture to heaven. Your declarative statements prove your inability to grasp the truth.

    Re my name: Hebrew, Strongs 3745 - keras: to proclaim, to herald a proclamation.
    Greek, Strongs 2784 - keruso: to herald, esp. divine truth, to proclaim or publish.

    Re your name:
    The name Marcion, or variations on it, shows up repeatedly among the Gnostics. Marsanes the Sethian, a name which also occurs as Martiades, who was represented to be one of the two witnesses – a notion refuted by Epiphanius, who mentioned the claim that Martiades was “snatched up” by Seth.
    The name also occurs as Marcus, Markus, Marcos, and Markos, also known as Marcus the Magician (a later follower of the Valentinian brand of Gnosticism), who was staunchly opposed by Irenaeus, the early Christian leader. Marcus the Magician, who lived around 150 AD, is thought to have come from Egypt, and he was reputed to have seduced the wives of Christians in the area where he was active. There are literally hundreds more Spiritual renegades from the first few centuries of Christianity, so the onslaught of so many Occultists who sought to build a religious following among the early Christians, helps to explain the vehement efforts by Holy Spirit led believers who opposed them. Ref: James Lloyd, The Culting of Christianity.
     
  5. Marcus O'Reillius

    Marcus O'Reillius Active Member

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    You're an idiot if you think you're making gold out of straw. This is just the same type of illogical thinking that lets you connect dots that don't connect, like making a coronal mass ejection to burn a third of the earth when Isaiah 30:26 says it's on a day when He heals those whom He has harmed.

    1. Your name does not mean messenger, that was your initial position.
    2. So what? Even if the Hebrew and Greek are related, which I don't think is the case, you can proclaim all you want; it doesn't make it true.
     
  6. keras

    keras Writer of Bible study guides

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    More Bible truth:
    Isaiah chapter 30 in a chronological order:
    Disaster will come to My people, those rebellious children of Israel. They scheme and make plans, but without My consent or approval, they just continue to pile sin upon sin. Instead of relying on their Maker for strength, they look for protection from foreign nations, where they will find neither help nor profit; only humiliation and contempt.

    Now: write down this testimony, so it can be read in future days. My people are a race of rebels, disloyal children who refuse to heed the Lord’s instructions. They say to their wise councillors: Do not give us the truth of how we should live, we just want smooth words and illusory visions. We will go our own way and forget the Holy One of Israel.
    Therefore the Lord says: You have rejected this warning and put your trust in unrighteous practices, so your iniquity will make you come crashing down, you will be smashed like a clay jar into small fragments. The Lord says: In calm detachment lies your safety, your strength in quiet trust. But you would have none of it. No, you said, we will rely on our own strength to save us, therefore you will be put to flight – you will face disaster and be left alone like a signal post on a hill.

    The Lord will make His voice heard in majesty, His arm will descend in His fierce anger with devouring flames of fire amid hurricane winds and cloudbursts of rain. On every hill, water will flow, on the terrible Day of massacre, when all military strength will be destroyed. On that Day, the moon will shine as brightly as the sun and the sun will shine with seven times its normal strength. The Lord Himself will bring on this judgement, with His anger blazing and His doom heavy. A devouring fire will devastate the nations, His enemies will be as ashes in the fire pit.

    On that Day, the Lord will heal His people and will recompense them for the punishment of exile that He had inflicted on them. For them, there will be songs of joy and gladness of heart as at a pilgrim feast, as they march on their way back to the holy Land. If you stray from the path, you will hear a Voice from behind you saying: This is the way, follow it. People of Israel, mourn no more, for the Lord will show you favour when He hears your cry for help. He may have given you adversity and affliction, but He who teaches you will no longer keep out of sight and with your own eyes, you will see Him. Your God will give you a clean heart and you will despise those things you once revered, your idols will be treated as filth.
    The Lord will give rain in due season, the Land will produce heavy crops and your livestock will prosper as you live in your heritage once more, in peace and security.
    Ref: REB abridged and paraphrased.

    The sun will shine with seven times its normal strength… This definitive statement is undeniably a coronal mass ejection; an explosion of the sun of unprecedented size, aimed at the earth. Deut. 32:34-35, Malachi 4:1 & 3, 2 Peter 3:7, Jeremiah 30:23-24, Isaiah 66:15-16
    Children of Israel: ​We know from the NT, that all who truly believe in God and the Lord Jesus are deemed to be Israelites.
    You will see your teacher… Jesus is our Teacher, Matthew 23:10. But do not think that this prophecy happens at the Return, because we are told several times that the Lord will reveal Himself to His people first. Isaiah 12:6, Isaiah 24:23, Isa. 60:2, Jeremiah 31:1-3, 2 Thess. 1:10 The Lamb of God will be seen on Mt Zion, when He selects the 144,000 who will go out to preach the coming Kingdom of Jesus. Rev. 14:1-7

     
  7. Marcus O'Reillius

    Marcus O'Reillius Active Member

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    More foolishness.

    YOU HAVE RE-WRITTEN THE BIBLE TO MAKE IT SAY WHAT YOU WANT IT TO SAY! ISAIAH 30:26 DOES NOT SAY WHAT YOU JUST POSTED! SHAME ON YOU!

    Isaiah 30:26

    Then shall the light of the moon, be as the light of the sun, And, the light of the sun, shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, - In the day - When Yahweh, bindeth up, the laceration of his people, and When the severe wound caused by smiting them, he healeth. REB

    The light of the moon will be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun will be seven times brighter, like the light of seven days, on the day the LORD binds up the fracture of His people and heals the bruise He has inflicted. NASB

    Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound. KJV

    The moon will shine like the sun, and the sunlight will be seven times brighter, like the light of seven full days, when the LORD binds up the bruises of his people and heals the wounds he inflicted. NIV

    Moreover the light of the moon will be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun will be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day when the LORD binds up the hurt of his people, and heals the wounds inflicted by his blow. RSV

    The moon will be as bright as the sun, and the sun will be seven times brighter—like the light of seven days in one! So it will be when the LORD begins to heal his people and cure the wounds he gave them. NLT

    Moreover, the light of the moon will be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun will be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day when the LORD binds up the brokenness of his people, and heals the wounds inflicted by his blow. ESV

    I do proclaim: Such a treacherous rabbi it is that maligns the Word of God you are, rabbi keras.
     
  8. ATP

    ATP New Member

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    Isa 30:26

    rapha: to heal
    Original Word: רָפָא
    Part of Speech: Verb
    Transliteration: rapha
    Phonetic Spelling: (raw-faw')
    Short Definition: heal
     
  9. keras

    keras Writer of Bible study guides

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    I have NOT re-written the Bible. As we are told, prophecy is a little here; a little there, Isaiah 28:10, so what I have done is place the prophecies into a sequence. I never said what I wrote is the final outcome, although I believe it to be close as it matches many other prophesies.
    It is you, Marcus, that denies the plain truth of what Isaiah 30:26 tells us. Will the sun really shine 'as seven days in one'? What would that Day be like?

    ATP, I agree that on the Day the Lord takes action, He will heal His people. This fact too, matches many other prophesies of how the Lord will save and protect His people as He destroys His enemies.
     
  10. Marcus O'Reillius

    Marcus O'Reillius Active Member

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    You did not present an exegesis of Isaiah in commentary explaining the meaning with Biblical cross-reference.

    You said this is the truth.

    What you said in presentation was the truth was your warped, twisted, aberrent fantasy.

    You rewrote Isaiah to suit your own selfish desires.

    The truth is not in you; you cannot even proclaim the truth honestly.

    You have no credibility. Your ideas have been shown to be null and void and you only prove that no matter what anyone else says or does: you can't fix stupid.
     
  11. keras

    keras Writer of Bible study guides

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    Marcus, the Bible explains itself. We can read Isaiah 30 in plain English and because what is said there doesn't relate to what you believe, you get upset. Your problem, not mine.

    What is warped, twisted and aberrant fantasy, is your belief of the Lord's Day of wrath, a Day of terrible earthquakes, storms, tsunamis and extreme heat, is the same Day as Jesus Returns in glory and all the world will see Him. They are written separately in Revelation and will occur separately.
     
  12. Marcus O'Reillius

    Marcus O'Reillius Active Member

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    You have no credibility rabbi keras.

    I can read Isaiah in English, but I reference the Hebrew for deeper word meaning at times.
    YOU re-write Isaiah for your own twisted, warped purposes - so you can sharpen the axe of your resentment. You have a problem there, and it's why you have no credibility.
    When you cite Scripture, it's doesn't make the point you say it does.
    When you quote Scripture, you can't even do so reliably.
    You can't even get a single verse right with Isaiah 30:26. THAT happens during the Millennium, when God turns to healing those Remnant Jews He has brought through the fire.

    Now you err again in saying what Revelation says and doesn't say.

    In Revelation chapters 7:9 - 8:7, between the conclusion of the sixth Seal and the sounding of the first Trumpet is a space of half an hour. Both can be done on a single day.

    In Revelation chapter 14, right after the Harvest in verses 14-16 from the clouds by Jesus, is a second Angel who in verse 17 is commanded by an Angel who has charge of the fire, an important element of the Day of the Lord's Wrath. This second Angel is commanded to charge the winepress of God's Wrath, and from that in verses 18-20, blood flows bridle high - a second element of three on the Day of the Lord's Wrath.

    So you are wrong again rabbi keras. That's the only reliable measure we have of you.

    Rapture and Wrath are shown TWICE in the book of Revelation. Once in the broad overview of the Seal/Scroll chronology (chapters 4-11), and again in the detailed portion covering just the one 'seven' (chapters 13-16).
     
  13. keras

    keras Writer of Bible study guides

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    Another rant form Marcus, showing his disregard for all the prophesies that don't agree with his beliefs.
    The 'about a half hour' of the Seventh Seal is in heaven. Is heavenly time the same as earth time? No, two witnesses tell us that 1000 years of earth time equals 1 day in heaven. Psalm 90:4, 2 Peter 3:8 There will be many years between the Sixth Seal and the commencement of the Great Tribulation. This allows for the establishment of a One World Govt and the rise of the Anti-Christ. But all the righteous people will live in the new nation of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5, Matthew 21:43

    The 'winepress of God' in Rev 14:17-20, does not happen at the Return, as Jesus remains on a cloud then.
    Correct, fire is an important element of the Lord's Day of wrath, where does this fire come from? The sun, God's storehouse. Deut 32:34-35

    A rapture to heaven of all Christians stated twice in Revelation? Only because you read such a false theory into scripture. It is never actually said, or even implied in any prophecy.
    That idea totally contradicts the whole plan of God for His people. Do you just ignore all the prophesies saying how God will bless His people in the Land?
     
  14. Marcus O'Reillius

    Marcus O'Reillius Active Member

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    rabbi keras says so. He also says the sun will supernova and burn a third of the earth... on a day when God heals! yeah right.

    So what does the Bible say?

    First of all, rabbi keras directly contradicts the Bible when he says the Sixth Seal happens many years before the Great Tribulation. rabbi keras actually has the not only the timing wrong but the order! The Great Tribulation happens before the sixth Seal. No less an authority establishes this prophetic fact after the Great Multitude show up in Heaven before the Throne of the Father.

    The Great Multitude come OUT OF the Great Tribulation.
    Rev 7:13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?" 14 I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them. 16 They will hunger no longer, nor thirst anymore; nor will the sun beat down on them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes."

    In the Olivet Discourse Jesus said:
    Mt 24:21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22 Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

    Now it is important to note that "no life" to be saved does not mean all life. For the wicked have not eternal "life". Their life on this earth is forfeit. The only ones with "life" are those who believe in Jesus. As Jesus said, 'He is not the God of the dead, but of the Living.' God is not concerned with all human life at this point because in a very short while He and His Army, backed up with Angels are about to take a whole lot of human life in His Wrath.

    Thus, not only DO the Elect go through the Great Tribulation, that time is abruptly cut short, chopped off as in docking an animal's tail so it is but a nub - which is the actual word in the Greek Matthew uses to convey what Jesus said - by the sudden appearance of the sun/moon/star event which heralds the Day of the Lord - but some of them are still living when Jesus comes! Paul gives an "observer-true" perspective of one of the Elect seeing Jesus come on the clouds with those He has resurrected from Paradise in 1Th 3:13 - at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints.

    And remember, unlike what old rabbi keras says, every eye will see Him coming!

    So rabbi keras is wrong once again... not surprising there.

    Now as to his second erroneous point: that some time happens after the sixth Seal to the formation of the one world government two things:

    1. In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus starts at the midpoint abomination in Mt 24:15. This precedes the Great Tribulation.
    2. In Rev 13-16, (the detailed parallel account to the Seal/Scroll chronology of chapters 4-11,) the one-world government arises first in chapter 13, verse 1. The beast of a man is introduced in verse 5. He is given authority to act for the first half of the one 'seven' (by God, He allows this to happen because it is necessary). The false prophet is introduced in verse 11. THEN the second sets up a talking image of the first in verse 13! This is the midpoint abomination!
    3. AFTER that, is the part where God responds in chapter 14. Hallelujah!

    So the Bible presents the correct order with the rise of a beast of a nation, the fourth terrible beast, the rise within that of a beast of a man, the anti-Christ, his accomplice in his evil: the false prophet (and both are captured alive later at Armageddon and they are the first thrown while still alive into Hell...) and THEN comes the abomination - and then comes our rescue!

    The theme of Rescue and then Wrath is also found in the Bible here which matches what Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse about Noah and Lot. Both were rescued before God's Wrath came upon the wicked left behind.

    The Harvest, i.e., Rapture = Rescue.
    Rev 14:14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and sitting on the cloud was one like a son of man, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying out with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, " Put in your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is ripe." 16 Then He who sat on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was reaped.

    God's Wrath: i.e., the first Trumpet.
    Rev 14:17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, and he also had a sharp sickle. 18 Then another angel, the one who has power over fire, came out from the altar; and he called with a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, " Put in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, because her grapes are ripe." 19 So the angel swung his sickle to the earth and gathered the clusters from the vine of the earth, and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God. 20 And the wine press was trodden outside the city, and blood came out from the wine press, up to the horses' bridles, for a distance of two hundred miles.

    What this shows is a sequence: one-two. First there is Rescue, our Redemption; there there is Wrath.

    Now you can lean on the Bible and bend your ear to discern what God has said, or you can follow rabbi keras who can't even present Isaiah 30:26 truthfully.
     
  15. keras

    keras Writer of Bible study guides

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    Marcus has the ability to unroll a scroll with some of the seals still intact. He also has Jesus doing all the terrible punishments described in the Sixth Seal at His Return, which is just after the Great Tribulation. Totally illogical and a violation of the sequence of events as given in Revelation and confirmed in many other prophesies.

    The great multitude of Rev 7:9 are on earth, as proved by verses 1-3. They will serve God in His Temple, we know from Rev 11:1-2, 2 Thess 2:4 is on earth, in Jerusalem.
    Isaiah 60:1-9 Arise and shine for thy light has come....darkness covers the earth, but the glory of the Lord shall be seen upon you.....you will fly as doves and come in ships, gathering into all of the holy Land.....your offerings of thanksgiving will be acceptable in the House of My glory.
     
  16. Marcus O'Reillius

    Marcus O'Reillius Active Member

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    Negative.

    rabbi keras has no credibility.

    The Scroll is not opened to reveal the desolations God has decreed (Dan 9:26) until the seventh Seal is broken.
    Then, and only then do the Angels sound the Trumpets which call forth the desolations of God's Wrath.
     
  17. Marcus O'Reillius

    Marcus O'Reillius Active Member

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    Notice rabbi keras doesn't mention all those other prophecies...

    In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus says this:

    The Glorious Return - (the NASB title, not mine)
    Mt 24:29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with A great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

    Jesus says He comes right after the Great Tribulation and ALL the tribes of the earth will morn and THEY WILL SEE the Son of Man coming on the clouds.

    rabbi keras says that doesn't happen.
    He has no credibility when compared to Christ Jesus.
     
  18. keras

    keras Writer of Bible study guides

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    Those celestial disturbances listed in Matthew 24:29, will occur at the glorious Return of Jesus.
    They are different from those described in Rev 6:12-14, that will occur at least 15 years before the Return, as Jesus removes the Sixth Seal.

    Your credibility is zero, Marcus, let alone compared with Christ Jesus.
     
  19. ATP

    ATP New Member

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    Right, and His glorious return begins with rapture...

    1 Thess 4:15 NIV According to the Lord's word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming (parousia) of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

    15 years?? And you're telling me I make things up? :lol:.

    Matt 24 and Rev 6 are in chronological order silly...

    1st Seal - Matt 24:4-5 NIV, Rev 6:1-2 NIV
    2nd Seal - Matt 24:6 NIV, Rev 6:3-4 NIV
    3rd Seal - Matt 24:7 NIV, Rev 6:5-6 NIV
    4th Seal - Matt 24:6-7 NIV, Rev 6:7-8 NIV
    5th Seal - Matt 24:9 NIV, Rev 6:9-11 NIV
    6th Seal - Matt 24:29-31 NIV, Rev 6:12-14 NIV
     
  20. Marcus O'Reillius

    Marcus O'Reillius Active Member

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    Right ATP, he can't be relied to cite Scripture reliably as to what it means. He'll say it means something, and when you actually look it up, it doesn't mean that at all.

    When he does quote a passage, he actually re-writes it so as to change what the Scripture actually says!

    When he pinpoints a verse, the conclusion he draws from it go against a plain reading of a single verse.

    When you point out that what the verse says rules out what he says it says, he can't get it through his old head that he's in error nor can he fix his error.

    And then he childishly parrots back the judgments placed on him. He has no credibility. I wonder why I continue to argue with the fool... except I worry someone might actually take his drivel for serious study... 15 years? Before it was 20.
    _____________________________________________________

    The Day of the Lord is displayed in both the Olivet Discourse (Mt 24:29-31) and Revelations' sixth Seal. I put it to the reader that the scrolling of the sky in the sixth Seal is the same sign of the Son of Man Jesus mentioned.
     
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