Out of curiosity. Do you believe a christian can lose his salvation and go to hell?keras said:
The Wrath of the Lord
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I don't, and have said so many times. Because you keep saying I do, you obviously don't know what the issue is, or you're being deliberately obtuse.keras said:
Yes, 'as' or 'like', not 'are' or 'is'. You seem to not understand basic metaphorical language.
Marcus O'Reillius
Active Member
The trouble with some people is that they "know" so much that isn't true.keras said:
1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,
You call yourself a messenger? How can you be anything from God when you twist the Word of God around to suit your own fantasy?keras said:
2Pe 1:20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,
ATP; yes those who sin after accepting the sacrifice of Jesus, will lose their salvation.
Stanj: I'm sorry I didn't pick up that you don't believe in the rapture. We are in agreement on that.
Re the 1000years = 1 day, becaue we only have translations, it can be difficult to be sure of the intent of prophesies like this one. I see it as a formula, you don't - OK.
Marcus; yes, 1 Peter 1:4 says there is an inheritance reserved in heaven for the Lord's righteous people. Jesus said he would bring His rewards with Him when He Returns to earth. Matthew 13:27, Rev 11:18 So why did you quote that verse?
Stanj: I'm sorry I didn't pick up that you don't believe in the rapture. We are in agreement on that.
Re the 1000years = 1 day, becaue we only have translations, it can be difficult to be sure of the intent of prophesies like this one. I see it as a formula, you don't - OK.
Marcus; yes, 1 Peter 1:4 says there is an inheritance reserved in heaven for the Lord's righteous people. Jesus said he would bring His rewards with Him when He Returns to earth. Matthew 13:27, Rev 11:18 So why did you quote that verse?
My goodness keras...how can you write Bible Study books if you can't read plain English? What language do you write in?keras said:
Now you're going to question the competency of the credentialed translators. Boy you sure are willing to go off reservation to support your erroneous POV.
Marcus O'Reillius
Active Member
Marcus O'Reillius
Active Member
ATP: 1st John gives us the remedy for our sin, which everyone has done.
1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
One of the problems with rabbi keras is the preceding and following verses:
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.
My point with rabbi keras is that he says he presents the truth, yet re-writes the Bible. Now he implies he hasn't sinned by saying if he did, he'd lose his salvation.
1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
One of the problems with rabbi keras is the preceding and following verses:
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.
My point with rabbi keras is that he says he presents the truth, yet re-writes the Bible. Now he implies he hasn't sinned by saying if he did, he'd lose his salvation.
Thanks for correcting me., Marcus and ATP. You are right, we are all still sinners and rely on the mercy of God to forgive us our sins. Psalm 103:12-14
What I base my premise on is Ezekiel 18:24, so it means a complete change of heart against God, to lose salvation.
StanJ, the Bible translators did the best they could, but we know they were often swayed by church doctrines and their personal bias. Nowadays we have modern scientific knowledge to help explain some prophesies, the historical record and we have the benefit of hindsight, esp in the case of the 1 day = 1000years. Do you not believe God's plan for mankind to be in control for 6000 years, then Jesus will rule for the last 1000 years, like a Sabbath rest period?
Less snarky comments from you would improve your credibility.
What I base my premise on is Ezekiel 18:24, so it means a complete change of heart against God, to lose salvation.
StanJ, the Bible translators did the best they could, but we know they were often swayed by church doctrines and their personal bias. Nowadays we have modern scientific knowledge to help explain some prophesies, the historical record and we have the benefit of hindsight, esp in the case of the 1 day = 1000years. Do you not believe God's plan for mankind to be in control for 6000 years, then Jesus will rule for the last 1000 years, like a Sabbath rest period?
Less snarky comments from you would improve your credibility.
I'm not talking about 400 year old translations, I'm talking about modern current English translations that are derived from over 9500 manuscripts in the Greek, more than at any other time in history. Those scholars are credentialed and preeminent, unlike yourself who wants us to just accept YOUR word on everything. Thanks, but no thanks. All I can say to you is "mene mene tekel upharsin"keras said:
Wormwood
Chaps
keras,
I would be cautious about stretching metaphor in the Bible to make literal predictive statements (i.e. a day is like a 1,000 years). It seems evident to me that people like the Apostle Paul expected Jesus to come back at any moment. There is no indication that they felt like it would be thousands of years based on such hyperbole found in the Psalms, etc. Using hyperbole in a poem to interpret apocalyptic literature in Revelation and elsewhere is fraught with problems. Essentially, we can make the Bible say whatever we want it to say if we pick hyperbole from one text and use it to interpret verses in a completely different genre and context. I understand you mean well, but I just think such approaches to Bible Study turn the Scriptures into a code book to be deciphered rather than an exhortation to be obeyed. The Bible is far more perceptive than it is predictive.
I would be cautious about stretching metaphor in the Bible to make literal predictive statements (i.e. a day is like a 1,000 years). It seems evident to me that people like the Apostle Paul expected Jesus to come back at any moment. There is no indication that they felt like it would be thousands of years based on such hyperbole found in the Psalms, etc. Using hyperbole in a poem to interpret apocalyptic literature in Revelation and elsewhere is fraught with problems. Essentially, we can make the Bible say whatever we want it to say if we pick hyperbole from one text and use it to interpret verses in a completely different genre and context. I understand you mean well, but I just think such approaches to Bible Study turn the Scriptures into a code book to be deciphered rather than an exhortation to be obeyed. The Bible is far more perceptive than it is predictive.
StanJ, It is unfair and unreasonable of you to accuse me of asking people to accept my word on what the Bible says.
You don't know me or my motivation. What I do is write out the Bible prophesies in an easy to read way. Contrary to some opinions here, I do NOT change what is said, simply use plain English and if we have modern scientific knowledge about things that relate to what the prophets described, then I use it.
The main reason I see for the vehement opposition I find here, is that the Bible truths as I present them conflict with other beliefs strongly held and promoted by others.
What is best to believe? What the Bible actually says or what you have been taught by men?
Re translations, I use the Revised English Bible, 1989 as my main source. It is, like you say, translated by a group of expert scholars, using a huge amount of source material. The REB succeeds to present the intended meaning of the scriptures in a way we can best understand. I also refer to 6 or more other translations.
You don't know me or my motivation. What I do is write out the Bible prophesies in an easy to read way. Contrary to some opinions here, I do NOT change what is said, simply use plain English and if we have modern scientific knowledge about things that relate to what the prophets described, then I use it.
The main reason I see for the vehement opposition I find here, is that the Bible truths as I present them conflict with other beliefs strongly held and promoted by others.
What is best to believe? What the Bible actually says or what you have been taught by men?
Re translations, I use the Revised English Bible, 1989 as my main source. It is, like you say, translated by a group of expert scholars, using a huge amount of source material. The REB succeeds to present the intended meaning of the scriptures in a way we can best understand. I also refer to 6 or more other translations.
Wormwood, I am careful about that too, but the facts of an exact 4000 period between Adam and Jesus and the nearly 2000 year period from Jesus until now, then the clearly stated 1000 year Millennial reign, makes God's plan for a 7000 year time for mankind a fact, not a theory.Wormwood said:
Yes Paul did expect an imminent Return, so the Church has been, or meant to have been, alert and awake for all this time. Imagine if Paul taught; Relax, Jesus won't be coming for 2000 years, just cruise along and don't worry that God will send fire or do anything to you.
The formula of 1 day to God = 1000 years to man, is given twice in the Bible. It also relates the Creation story, if the days mentioned there were actually 1000 years, then that would relate much better to what scientists see in the geological, anthropological, etc, records.
In the Seventh Seal, it is clearly stated that the 'about a half hour' is in heaven. A simple calculation makes that to be 'about 20 years earth time'. So from the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, there will be a time period anywhere from 15 to 25 years, which will be about right for all that is prophesied to happen from that until the Return.
So Psalm 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8 are not metaphors or allegories, of what use would that be? It is obvious to any thinking believer that time to God isn't the same as time to us.
Why is unfair? You do it. I don't really care what your motivation is, I care about what God's word says and your POV is NOT supported by what the scriptures DO say.keras said:
Of course they conflict, otherwise you wouldn't get throw back. Seems you are not used to your teaching being questioned, but there it is, so deal with it, and stop trying to play the martyr. As you seem to treat most here as less than peer, this is why your get all the throw back. Try treating your audience as peers, then MAYBE you will get more appreciation, but as it stands, you don't seem to be aware of that.
I know nothing of the REB, but it appears to be OK as far as I can tell. Would be helpful when you quote, that you use (NEB) after the verse, because just showing the verses, will bring up the HCSB by default. The REB, is not one of the MANY used on Biblegateway.com, so not one we encounter much here, but I see you prefer translation from England. In any event, I'm not doubting those translators, as I see they use "dynamic Equivalence" as their preferred method of linguistics, I'm addressing your attempt to disparage modern translations that may not state what you infer is stated in the scriptures.
Wormwood
Chaps
First, I would question the "exact"-ness of the 4,000 years between Adam and Jesus. I dont think the geneologies are meant to be exact time-telling devices in the OT, and even if they were, I do not think they amount to an exact 4,000 years. Moreover, even if we grant that it was 4,000 years from Adam to Jesus, Jesus was born about 4 BC and it is now 2015. Thus, that is about 2019 years, which, if you add to your "exact" 4,000 years is 6,019. Which means that the millennium has either started, or is late (if you are mandating 7,000 for all history). On top of that, it still doesnt answer the fact that the hyperbole in the psalms is not a matrix for interpreting other literature and to make it so is a highly questionable interpretive method.
In sum, none of it adds up. Its not right to use metaphor as a tool for making predictions. Moreover, there is nothing in the Bible that speaks of human history amounting to a Sabbath week of 1,000 year days. Its all conjecture and the conjecture just does not add up to right scriptural interpretation or basic history.
In neither of these instances is the phrase used literally, but as a metaphor to encourage believers to exercise patience (which is the opposite of how you are using it). Moreover, there are a lot of problems with the day/age theory of creation that I will not go into right now. Finally, by your rationale, we could say that God literally only owns a thousand cattle on a thousand hills. I mean, if you want to make these metaphors decoders for interpreting the Bible, we could make the Bible say whatever we want. This is not how the Bible was read by the first readers or how we should read it today. This is evident in the fact that there is no teaching by the Apostles or the early church that Jesus would be gone for at least 2,000 years in order to complete the 7,000 year human history week.
Yeah, well we also read that Christians would suffer in prison for 10 days. Does that mean Christians should expect to sit in jail for about 10,000 years? In heaven, will Jesus really have 7 eyes and 7 horns? Come on...this is sheer nonsense. The Bible is not a secret decoder ring. These predictive schemes always end up making Christians look foolish. The message of Revelation is simple: "Remain faithful, even to death and you will receive the crown of life." Making it a secret treasure map to unlock future events is nonsense of which there seems to be no end...no matter how many times such code prophets are proven wrong.
WW,
Keras really doesn't GET that it is NOT a formula but a metaphor to indicate that God does not measure time the way we do, simply because He created it but is not governed or subject to it. That is why Peter said "God is not slow concerning His promises."
Keras really doesn't GET that it is NOT a formula but a metaphor to indicate that God does not measure time the way we do, simply because He created it but is not governed or subject to it. That is why Peter said "God is not slow concerning His promises."
Here is a list of the ages of the patriarchs and the reigning periods of the kings that adds up to 4000 years from Adam until the commencement of Jesus ministry, not His birth.Wormwood said:
Please advise me if you see any error in this:
[SIZE=medium]Genesis 1:27 [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]Adam was created in[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]3970.5 BCE, 4000 years before 29.5 CE. [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]The start of Jesus’ ministry. Note: All years are counted from their commencement.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Gen 5:3 Seth [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]+130[/SIZE][SIZE=medium], Gen 5:6 Enoch [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]+105[/SIZE][SIZE=medium], Gen 5:9 Kenan [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]+90[/SIZE][SIZE=medium], Gen 5:12 Mahalalel [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]+70[/SIZE][SIZE=medium], Gen 5:15 Jared [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]+65[/SIZE][SIZE=medium], Gen 5:18 Enoch [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]+162[/SIZE][SIZE=medium], Gen 5:21 Methuselah [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]+65[/SIZE][SIZE=medium], Gen 5:25 Lamech [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]+187[/SIZE][SIZE=medium], Gen 5:28 Noah[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]+182[/SIZE][SIZE=medium], Gen 6:7 The Flood came when Noah was [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]+600[/SIZE][SIZE=medium], Gen 11:10 Arpachshad [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]+2[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] - born to Shem after the flood. Gen 11:12 Selah [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]+35[/SIZE][SIZE=medium], Gen 11:14 Heber [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]+30[/SIZE][SIZE=medium], Gen 11:16 Peleg [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]+34[/SIZE][SIZE=medium], Gen 11:18[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]Reu [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]+30[/SIZE][SIZE=medium], Gen 11:20 Serug [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]+32[/SIZE][SIZE=medium], Gen 11:22 Nahor [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]+30[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] , Gen 11:24 Terah [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]+29[/SIZE][SIZE=medium], Gen 11:26 Abram [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]+70[/SIZE][SIZE=medium].[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Abraham was [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]+99[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] when the Covenant was made with God.[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] Total years so far = 2047[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Galatians 3:17 Paul states that the Torah was given [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]+430[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] after the Covenant. Total years elapsed until the Exodus – [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]2477[/SIZE][SIZE=medium], that is: [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]1493.5 BCE[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]. [Many ancient records say Comet Typhon passed close the earth at that time. It was the cause of many of the disasters in Egypt.][/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]1 Kings 6:1 The Temple construction starts, in the 4th year of King Solomon [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]+480[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] since Torah and the Exodus.. [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]Total years so far = 2957[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]1 Kings 11:42 Solomon 40 minus 4 = [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]+36[/SIZE][SIZE=medium], 1 Kings 14:21 Rehoboam [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]+17[/SIZE][SIZE=medium], 1 Kings 15:2 Abijah [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]+3[/SIZE][SIZE=medium], 2 Chron 16:13 Asa [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]+41[/SIZE][SIZE=medium], 1 Kings 22:42 Jehoshaphat [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]+25[/SIZE][SIZE=medium], 2 Kings 8:17 Jehoram [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]+8[/SIZE][SIZE=medium], 2 Kings 8:26 Ahaziah [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]+1[/SIZE][SIZE=medium], 2 Kings 11:1-3 Athaliah [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]+6[/SIZE][SIZE=medium], 2 Kings 12:1-3 Joash [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]+40[/SIZE][SIZE=medium], 2 Kings 14:1-2 Amaziah [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]+29[/SIZE][SIZE=medium], 2 Kings 15:1-2 Azariah [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]+52[/SIZE][SIZE=medium], 2 Kings 15:32 Jotham [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]+16[/SIZE][SIZE=medium], 2 Kings 16:1-2 Ahaz [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]+16[/SIZE][SIZE=medium], 2 Kings 18:1-2 Hezekiah [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]+29[/SIZE][SIZE=medium], 2 Kings 21:1 Manasseh [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]+55[/SIZE][SIZE=medium], 2 Kings 21:19 Amon [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]+2[/SIZE][SIZE=medium], 2 Kings 22:1-2 Josiah [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]+31[/SIZE][SIZE=medium], 2 Kings 22:31 Jehoahaz +[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]3mths[/SIZE][SIZE=medium], 2 Kings 23:31 Jehoiakim [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]+11[/SIZE][SIZE=medium], 2 Kings 24:8 Jehoichin +[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]3mths[/SIZE][SIZE=medium], 2 Kings 24:18 Zedekiah [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]+11,[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] who ruled until the Babylonian conquest of Judah in [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]586 BCE[/SIZE][SIZE=medium].[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Total years to the 1st exile of Judah = 3386.5.[/SIZE] From [SIZE=medium]3386.5 add 613.5 = 4000 years.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Take 613.5 minus 586 plus 2 [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]comes to [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]29.5 CE, [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]the date of Jesus’ baptism.[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]Luke 3:1[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium] [Plus 2 to include the total number of elapsed years.] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]586 BCE + 2015.5 CE - 2 = 2599.5 years since the known date of the Jewish Exile.[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]Minus 2 for the current system of counting the year from its commencement. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Therefore: 2599.5 + 3386.5 = [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]5986 years is the present age of mankind. [/SIZE][SIZE=medium][June 2015] [/SIZE]
So the Millennium has not started, must be 14/15 years away.
This is actually one of your better posts keras. I agree that we are close to something big. I also believe in the 7000 year plan.keras said:
Keras, when Jesus said NOBODY knows, He meant it. I have no idea what you are trying to do here other than contradict what Jesus said.
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