The Wrath of the Lord

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ATP

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keras said:
They will be joined by all true Christians. Jeremiah 50:4-6
Right, the church is raptured first from one end of the heavens to the other Matt 24:29-31 NIV , and then Jesus will come down to earth with the church at the end of the 70th week to be joined with Israel Rev 19:14. If not, Jesus lied and Israel will not be in the wilderness for 3.5 years Rev 12:6. Because rapture occurs before the Day of the Lord, not after Joel 2:31. You need to keep the church and Israel separate, otherwise the Bible ends up being a confusing piece of junk you keep in your attic.
 

keras

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ATP said:
Right, the church is raptured first from one end of the heavens to the other Matt 24:29-31 NIV , and then Jesus will come down to earth with the church at the end of the 70th week to be joined with Israel Rev 19:14. If not, Jesus lied and Israel will not be in the wilderness for 3.5 years Rev 12:6. Because rapture occurs before the Day of the Lord, not after Joel 2:31. You need to keep the church and Israel separate, otherwise the Bible ends up being a confusing piece of junk you keep in your attic.
Matthew 24:30-31 is a clear sequence of events; The signs will appear...... all the world will lament......they will see Him coming with great glory......He will send out Hs angels to gather His chosen.
Splitting this passage up is a serious error and is only done by you and all the deluded rapture to heaven enthusiast's to fit their theory.
When Jesus does come down, it is with the angel armies of heaven, Rev 19:14, Jude 1:14, and He brings the rewards for those who have kept their faith. Matthew 16:27

Please, do not go on about the Church and righteous Israel being separate. You violate so many scriptures when you do that, I have to think you are just a beginner, without a proper understanding of Jesus' work for His lost sheep, the ten lost tribes and those from every tribe, nation and language.

Acknowledgement of your mistakes is in order.
 

StanJ

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keras said:
What is needed is to understand who it is that will be living in all of the Holy land during the time that the leader of the OWG, the Anti-Christ will sit in the Temple.

The current population of Israel, face judgement and only a remnant will survive. Zechairah 13:7-9 They will be joined by all true Christians. Jeremiah 50:4-6
an assertion you have yet to support.
 

ATP

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keras said:
Matthew 24:30-31 is a clear sequence of events; The signs will appear...... all the world will lament......they will see Him coming with great glory......He will send out Hs angels to gather His chosen.
Splitting this passage up is a serious error and is only done by you and all the deluded rapture to heaven enthusiast's to fit their theory.
No not really. Rev 6,7,8,9 are in chronological order, just like the Olivet Discourse that Jesus prepared for you. If you cannot see that you need bigger glasses.
 

StanJ

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keras said:
As Christians ARE Israelites, the question is answered by NT teaching.

[SIZE=medium]Israelis and Israelites:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Israelis:[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] The current inhabitants of the State of Israel.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Israelites[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]: True descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, or those people grafted in by reason of righteousness. Only God knows who they all are. Amos 9:9, Romans 9:6[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Most Western Christians view modern Israelis as a continuation of the ancient Biblical drama of Israel and as the inheritors of the traditional role that the Jews have played through the ages.[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]Through them, we have a universal moral code of justice: the Ten Commandments.[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]These Divinely inspired Laws form the basis of our Judeo/Christian morality and ethics.[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]Therefore modern Israel has been expected to reflect a high level of justice and morality in its actions. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Jewish teaching also says that history is not as the Greeks taught it, that is: a cyclical series of events in which mankind gets no better or no worse. The Torah, the Talmud and the Mishnah, all teach that we can steadily uplift human society and eventually there will come a Messianic era of true peace and harmony.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Although the State of Israel does display restraint in their dealings with their neighbours, it can hardly be said that they maintain Biblical precepts, such as[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] ‘Love thy neighbour’[/SIZE][SIZE=medium].[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]And as for moral leadership, Israeli’s are a seriously bad example![/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]What then of the prophesies that say the Israelites are a chosen people, destined to be a ‘[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]light to the nations’[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]?[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]We must be aware and keep in mind that the Jewish people are comprised of only 2 tribes, of the original 12 sons of Jacob. [Parts of some other tribes are assimilated.] [/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]Ezekiel 22:15 [/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]The Jewish Israeli people are just [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]‘the budding of the fig tree’[/SIZE][SIZE=medium], a first fruit of the final regathering of ALL the Israelite people. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]We are told in many prophecies that Judah will be judged and punished for their many sins, but a remnant will survive to become a ‘[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]holy seed in the Land’[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]. Isaiah 6:13[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]Then, the great spiritual regeneration and rejoining of all the Israelites will take place; Ezekiel 37:1-19, and as Ezekiel 37:20-28 goes on to say:[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] I shall make them a single nation in the holy Land and I shall pour out My Spirit upon them. [/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]Isaiah 44:1-5 Then the Lord’s righteous people will be His witnesses, Isaiah 43:10 and 12,000 from each tribe will go out to the world, to proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus. Rev. 14:1-7[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]This judgement/punishment event, the Sixth Seal, will severely affect the whole world, Luke 21:35 and the nations will cede their sovereignty to a One World Government in order to re-establish normal life and initially ten regions will be formed, each with a Governor or President.[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]Fairly soon, a charismatic and powerful man will rise and take control of them all, declaring himself to be the great leader and saviour of humankind. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]New Israel, [Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5] will not join this federation and they become rich and prosperous, blessed by the Lord, living in peace as God wipes out the Gog/Magog attack, but they become complacent and when the OWG leader comes to make a peace treaty with them, their leaders agree to it, forgetting that it is the Lord who protects and saves them. Isa 28:18 This is the trigger for the start of the final seven years, as prophesied in Daniel.[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]The first 3.5 years will be peaceful, but then the OWG leader comes to Jerusalem with his army and conquers Beulah.[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]He goes to the new Temple and sits in the Holy of Holies, declaring himself to be God. This commences the trumpet and bowl punishments of the great Tribulation, which lasts for 3.5 years. Those righteous Israelites, who refused to agree to the treaty with the OWG leader, are promised a place of safety for this time. Then the Lord Jesus will Return in glory, to reign on earth for 1000 years. After that comes the Great White Throne judgement of all the living and dead.[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]Finally: eternity with God in the New Jerusalem![/SIZE]

As you have NOT supported that yet, I'd have to disagree that Christians are Israelites. Seems you have no desire to support your POVs at all?
 

Marcus O'Reillius

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keras said:
Matthew 24:30-31 is a clear sequence of events; The signs will appear...... all the world will lament......they will see Him coming with great glory......He will send out Hs angels to gather His chosen.
Oops! There's rabbi keras von hubris using that "clear" word again! Whenever that word appears in an eschatological argument, the reader can be certain that what follows is anything but clear, but the reader can be utterly certain that what follows is the poster's own conclusion - which may or may not be supported by the text they're citing!

Now "sequence-of-events" is a term I coined for my approach to end-time prophecy. rabbi keras von hubris has no real idea on how to perform that kind of analysis, he just stole the catch phrase and lamely tries to apply it to achieve the results he desires to make the Bible say.

Here is a proper "sequence-of-events" analysis of the Olivet Discourse found in Matthew.

The Olivet Discourse

The keystone for the Sequence of Events is Jesus’ prophetic Olivet Discourse. This passage is the fifth major discourse of the book of Matthew as it is constructed. This discourse also follows parallel construction with a broad overview beginning with Jesus’ answer to the disciple’s question at Mt 24:4 leading to the “end” at verse 14. A detailed parallel account follows which gets to the same “end,” namely the gathering of the Elect. The detailed parallel portion of the Olivet Discourse, covering the final end of the Church Age, reveals five specific and unique events which are the bridge between the one ‘seven’ of the book of Daniel and the chronology of the Seals/Trumpets in the book of Revelation.

15 "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. 22 "If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Messiah!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24 For false
messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
25 See, I have told you ahead of time. 26 "So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the wilderness,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather. 29 "Immediately after the distress of those days " 'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.' 30 "Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Analysis from a sequence of events point of view:

v. 15 – abomination (of) desolation standing in the Holy Place.
v. 16 – prayer for those in Judea (future Remnant)
v. 17 – warning to those in Judea
v. 18 – warning to those in Judea
v. 19 – descriptive
v. 20 – warning prayer for those in Judea
v. 21 – “unequaled” great tribulation
v. 22 – it is shortened for the sake of the Elect
v. 23 – warning to the Elect
v. 24 – warning to the Elect
v. 25 – declaration of prophetic truth
v. 26 – warning to the Elect
v. 27 – description of Jesus’ parousia (Greek for “coming”)
v. 28 – cryptic message (dealing with the nature of the Rapture)
v. 29 – immediately after great tribulation – (sequencing) – sun/moon/star event
v. 30 – sign of Son of Man
Son of Man coming on the clouds
v. 31 – gathering of the Elect from the earth.

Dealing only with events; descriptive verses, simple declarations, various warnings and prayers are dropped. This distills the passage down to the actions which will happen. Taking just the simplest elements does not eliminate some of the other aspects… it’s just that they are not germane to the main plot in constructing the basic framework for a singular chronology. However, some important elements can later be woven into the sequence of events to cover some of the side issues which are present in the end-times, like concerning “those in Judea.” The order of events as Jesus listed the main ones are:

• v. 15 Midpoint Abomination, which adds: standing in the “Holy Place”
• v. 21 Great Tribulation, which is shortened by the:
• v. 29 Sun/moon/star event, which heralds the Day of the Lord
• v. 30 Sign of the Son of Man
• v. 30 The Son of Man coming on the clouds
• v. 31 Gathering Elect from the clouds

This linear narrative has five, important, specific and unique events in their proscribed order with the added benefit of having joining time stamps in two of them. This passage is the Keystone Passage for the Sequence of Events because it allows the harmonization of Daniel’s one ‘seven’ to the broad overview of the end-times in Revelation with the Seal/Scroll chronology.

The aspects of those in Judea fleeing, the bit of cryptic information about carcasses, and even the sign of the Son of Man are important and have a place in the final analysis, however, for simplicity’s sake this list boils down the Olivet Discourse’s detailed portion to its essential elements which are not only specific and unique, but are repeated in the Bible in other linear narratives. This makes the Olivet Discourse the Keystone Passage because it has five crucial, specific and unique events culminating in the Rapture of the Church – which is everyone’s key interest. What is interesting is that Jesus adds crucial information as well about the midpoint abomination which marries with another linear narrative in Paul’s second letter to the Thessalonians. Because of the details in each; there is a perfect match. Likewise, Jesus gives two important time elements: first the Great Tribulation is shortened, and immediately after it comes the sun/moon/star event.

So when rabbi keras tries to sell you a bill of goods proclaiming it to be a sequence-of-events, hold onto your wallet; what he offers is no good.
 

keras

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If anyone wants to read thru, let alone believe the 'sequence of events' of the Marcus translation; go for it!
My recommendation is for people to read what the Bible actually says and placing the Day of the Lord's wrath at the Return simply isn't what Revelation says. In the Book of truth, it happens at the Sixth Seal, a worldwide disaster that will set the scene for the establishment of a One World Govt.

Marcus and anyone that denies this, have yet to explain how the scroll can be opened with some seals intact. It is rubbish to say: those who say it is the DoL wrath, are telling lies. How incredibly unbelievable is that! Isaiah 2:12-21 confirms it and Isaiah 66:15-15, 2 Peter 3:7 say it will be a Day of fire.
 

keras

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StanJ said:
an assertion you have yet to support.
Don't you read my supporting scriptures? Just click on them to read.
Here are some more that say the current inhabitants of the holy Land will be judged and punished. Ezekiel 21:4, Amos 2:4-5, Jeremiah 13:19, Zephaniah 1:4-6, Luke 19:27, Isaiah 4:3-4, Ezekiel 30:2-5
 

keras

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StanJ said:
As you have NOT supported that yet, I'd have to disagree that Christians are Israelites. Seems you have no desire to support your POVs at all?
As Jesus asserted, there is only one people of God. John 10:16, John 17:22-23, and Paul as well said it in Romans 9:6-8, Ephesians 2:11- 18, Ephesians 4:4-6

I amply support my POV, but for those whom God has blinded and made incapable of understanding, Isaiah 42:19-20, only as the end time events unfold, will they finally know the truth of God's plans.
 

keras

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ATP said:
No not really. Rev 6,7,8,9 are in chronological order, just like the Olivet Discourse that Jesus prepared for you. If you cannot see that you need bigger glasses.
FYI, I am 74 an do not need glasses.
I agree that Rev 6,7,8,9 are chronological. But then that doesn't fit exactly with the Olivet D.
I see Jesus giving details on various things there, things that we can see where they fit from what He said.
Thinking that Matthew 24:28 is a reference to a rapture, is laughable!
 

ATP

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keras said:
I agree that Rev 6,7,8,9 are chronological. But then that doesn't fit exactly with the Olivet D.
It doesn't fit with the Olivet D. How so? I see it fitting...

1st Seal - Matt 24:4-5 NIV, Rev 6:1-2 NIV
2nd Seal - Matt 24:6 NIV, Rev 6:3-4 NIV
3rd Seal - Matt 24:7 NIV, Rev 6:5-6 NIV
4th Seal - Matt 24:6-7 NIV, Rev 6:7-8 NIV
5th Seal - Matt 24:9 NIV, Rev 6:9-11 NIV
6th Seal - Matt 24:29 NIV, Rev 6:12-14 NIV

If they are in chronological order then the sun, moon, stars and earthquake are also Matt 24:29, Rev 6:12-14.

What are your thoughts on this...http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/22155-7th-seal-7th-trumpet-7th-bowl/
 

keras

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You are only trying to parallel the Seals with the Olivet D. Marcus attempts to do it with all the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls.
I see the Sixth Seal in Matthew 24:21-22. The cosmic effects of the Sixth Seal are far more than Matthew 24:29 That verse pertains to the Return of Jesus, as per verse 30.
 

Marcus O'Reillius

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keras said:
If anyone wants to read thru, let alone believe the 'sequence of events' of the Marcus translation; go for it!
My recommendation is for people to read what the Bible actually says and placing the Day of the Lord's wrath at the Return simply isn't what Revelation says. In the Book of truth, it happens at the Sixth Seal, a worldwide disaster that will set the scene for the establishment of a One World Govt.

Marcus and anyone that denies this, have yet to explain how the scroll can be opened with some seals intact. It is rubbish to say: those who say it is the DoL wrath, are telling lies. How incredibly unbelievable is that! Isaiah 2:12-21 confirms it and Isaiah 66:15-15, 2 Peter 3:7 say it will be a Day of fire.
rabbi keras von hubris: you are no qualified to render judgment on another's writing than you are to interpret a prophet's writing. Isaiah 30:26 as a coronal mass ejection burning the earth on the Day of the Lord indeed! It happens on the Day God heals those He has inflicted!

Israel is stubborn and rebellious. Always has been, and is still. They reject Christ. That is the reason for the time of Jacob's Trouble and the Millennium. You equate the two entirely; you would have us be judged by God. We are not to be judged because we have the Justification of Christ Jesus.

In the Sequence-of-Events, the Day of the Lord stretches from the sixth Seal to the first Trumpet:

•There is an initial earthquake to shake things up, so to speak.
•Then there is the precursor sign of the sun/moon/stars. This is complex and takes time. There will be a covering of clouds.
•At noon it will be dark.
•Three Angels make their appearance warning the world and completing the Gospel message.
•In the evening it will be light. This contrast of unworldly celestial signs demonstrates that it is opposite of normal.
•There will be a scrolling of the sky; this I believe is the sign of the Son of Man Jesus speaks of for His parousia.
•A celestial fireworks show accompanies the initial scrolling of the sky as meteors rain down.
•He will touchdown on the Mount of Olives.
•This causes an earthquake which geographically changes the whole earth's orientation to itself.
•This also causes a rift in the Mount of Olives which allows the second set of the Remnant Jews to escape.
•He will summon the 144,000 to the newly formed Mount Zion.
•He will selectively call out the Dead in Christ from Paradise, the first Heaven.
•This is the Last Trumpet call bringing forth a great multitude of souls from years gone by.
•He will return to this world with those Saints on the clouds, east to west, and gather up the few remaining Elect.
•He will deliver said Great Multitude to the third Heaven of God the Father's presence.
•With the opening of the Scroll after the seventh Seal is broken, Jesus begins to tramp out His Wrath.
•The first Trumpet of God's Wrath sounds bringing two of three elements found in OT DOL Wrath: fire and blood.
•Mountains will smoke: imagine the devastation when the Yellowstone caldera erupts - it will lay waste to the USA.
•This is the Old Testament Wrath of Isaiah, Joel, and Zephaniah you quote here.
•There are more trumpet calls when the two battles in Israel happen when Jesus tramps out His Wrath with the 144,000.
•He will occupy the Temple IAW Ezekiel 9.
•The Land (Israel) will be defiled and also cleansed with the great outpouring of blood.
•Night time comes, and the Day of the Lord is over - the earth will reel like a drunken sailor for months but when it gets its footing, then the second Trumpet will be sounded. Until then, this first desolation will have done its job, and its effects will long outlast its short span of a Day.

Rescue and then Wrath.

We are taken to the barn of Heaven while the tares are burned in the field of this world.
 

ATP

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Marcus O'Reillius said:
In the Sequence-of-Events, the Day of the Lord stretches from the sixth Seal to the first Trumpet:
I would even extend that to the seventh trumpet.
Mainly because the fifth trumpet lasts five months alone.
Right after the 70th week is over the bowls are poured out.
 

keras

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I completley and utterly disagree with the premise above.
The Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath is just what all the prophets say it will be - one Day. It happens at the Sixth Seal and then the world can slowly recover. The secular survivors will establish a One World Govt, but all who kept their faith in God and called out to Him will receive the call to gather and travel to the Holy Land. Read Psalm 107 for some interesting details.
Psalm 107:43 Whoever is wise, let him take these things to heart and ponder the loving deeds of the Lord.
 

Marcus O'Reillius

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keras said:
The secular survivors will establish a One World Govt,
Not so.

Revelation chapters 13-16 (inclusive)

Let's look at the parallel account with Revelation of chapters 13-16 inclusive, which I call the Rise and Fall of the anti-Christ. I think the whole of the one 'seven' is detailed here to give us some added information which is missing from other accounts, mainly the seventh Trumpet, but also about the 144,000 and about the nature of the Day of the Lord and some things peculiar to the sixth Seal which lead to much confusion about the Wrath of God first mentioned in writing in Revelation chapter 6.

In outline form from the four chapters of Revelation 13 through 16 here are the “events:”

• The rise of the fourth terrible beast of a nation out of the “sea”
.....o Worship of the beast (rebellion against God)
• Authority given (by God) to the beast of a man for one-half of the one 'seven'
.....o He wages war against the Saints
.....o We are to endure patiently (remember Rev 3:10 and John 17:15)
• Rise of the false prophet with miracles and 'fire from the sky'
• Erection of the talking image of the anti-Christ: the midpoint abomination
• Two laws which make the Great Tribulation the worst time ever for the Church in terms of persecution
• 144,000 assembled on Mount Zion
• 3 Angels fulfill the Great Commission / Warn the wicked
• Son of Man coming on the clouds
• Harvest from the clouds
• Avenging Angels - Blood and Fire
• First Bowl - Sores on Man
• Second Bowl - All sea to blood
• Third Bowl - All water to blood
• Fourth Bowl - Seared by heat
• Fifth Bowl - Satan's kingdom in the dark
• Sixth Bowl - Way for the King of the East - Battle at Armageddon N/S/E
• Seventh Bowl - Earth changing earthquake

Working backwards at first, in sequencing this account to the previous compilation, the Bowl Judgments come last - it says so in the Harvest account in chapter 15. Previously the seventh Trumpet announcement was broken off in the previous Seal/Scroll chronology in Revelation chapter 10 when John is told not to write and only later summed up with no details of the desolations it ensues being revealed whatsoever. So now God shows to John what he didn't write about in the Seal/Scroll chronology: the desolations of the third Woe. They are all of the first "thirds" Trumpet Judgments but now - they're total. The depth of God’s Wrath is displayed in the third Woe.

Notice that the end comes with an earth-changing Great earthquake. This marries what chapter 11 had at its end and in addition, what concludes the sidebar account of Revelation 11:1-13. There are parallel accounts within the book of Revelation because there is so much action taking place, and one of the clues that these take place is repeated events. This is also the reason the book of Revelation is so hard to read when read like a novel; the action seems to go back and forth.

So the easiest sequencing of all is to preserve the finality of the Bowl Judgments. They complete the third Woe of the seventh Trumpet. The Bowl Judgments can be viewed as the revealed third Woe; they follow the seventh Trumpet.

• Seventh Trumpet
.....o First Bowl - Sores on Man
.....o Second Bowl - All sea to blood
.....o Third Bowl - All water to blood
.....o Fourth Bowl - Seared by heat
.....o Fifth Bowl - Satan's kingdom in the dark
.....o Sixth Bowl - Way for the King of the East - Battle at Armageddon N/S/E
.......... Two Witnesses die from Demon from Abyss.
.....o Seventh Bowl

Starting at the beginning of Revelation chapters 13 through 16 now, the beast of a nation rises before the beast of a man is given authority to rule for 42 months doing pretty much as he pleases without interference. This comes before the midpoint abomination now revealed as the erection of the talking image of the same anti-Christ by the false prophet who is introduced as being the source for “fire falling from the sky” which could be an apt description of a nuclear bomb explosion. That seminal event worthy of mention happens during the first half of the one ‘seven’ and before the midpoint abomination as well. The first four main bullet points precede the midpoint abomination and are put first. They explain the source for the midpoint abomination and the Great Tribulation and are a match.
 

ATP

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keras said:
The Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath is just what all the prophets say it will be - one Day.
How can it be just one day? Trumpets and bowls are God's wrath, and the fifth trumpet last five months keras!
 

StanJ

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keras said:
Don't you read my supporting scriptures? Just click on them to read.
Here are some more that say the current inhabitants of the holy Land will be judged and punished. Ezekiel 21:4, Amos 2:4-5, Jeremiah 13:19, Zephaniah 1:4-6, Luke 19:27, Isaiah 4:3-4, Ezekiel 30:2-5
None of them say ANYTHING about what you assert keras. Again, you have to SHOW, exegete it.
 

StanJ

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keras said:
As Jesus asserted, there is only one people of God. John 10:16, John 17:22-23, and Paul as well said it in Romans 9:6-8, Ephesians 2:11- 18, Ephesians 4:4-6

I amply support my POV, but for those whom God has blinded and made incapable of understanding, Isaiah 42:19-20, only as the end time events unfold, will they finally know the truth of God's plans.
I'm afraid that is NOT what those verses show. Again stati8ng it is not the same as SHOWING it.

You support your POV with opinion keras, NOT with properly exegeted Biblical facts, otherwise you would SHOW it by exegeting those verses. Do you understand what that means?
 

keras

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StanJ, I have written plenty about God's plans for our future. I have spent years carefully studying all of the Prophetic Word. Would you like me to post a million words here? I try to keep the message short and if verses I use don't seem to you to prove my point, maybe that is because you view them from another perspective.
Remember Daniel said: only a few would understand the prophesies in the last days. And we must clear our minds of any unscriptural teachings for the 'light to shine like a lamp in a dark place'. 2 Peter 1:19
So do you have a clear understanding of what God has planned for our future?

The Church is Israel, the one people of God:
[SIZE=11pt]Those believers who love the Lord and keep His commandments, that is: the true Christian Church are designated by God to be Israelites. The New Testament writings are clear: there is only one Israel, only one Church, only one elect, whether they be Jew or Gentile by birth.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]1/ Israel, the chosen people of God: Exodus 15:13, Deut. 33:3, Ezra 3:11 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] Christians, chosen of God: Rom. 9:25, Eph. 5:1, Col. 3:12, 1 John 3:1, Rev. 7:9[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]2/ Israel, the children of God: Deut. 14:1, Isa.1:2-4, Isa 63:8, Hosea 11:1[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] Christians, the children of God: John 1:12, Rom. 8:14-16, Gal. 4:5-7, 1 John 3:1[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]3/ Israel, the scattered sheep of God: Psalm 78:52, Isa. 40:11, Jer. 23:1-4, Eze 34:12[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] Christians, His sheep: among the nations: John 10:14-16, Heb. 13:20, 1 Peter 2:25[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]4/ Israel, God’s household: Hebrews 3:5, 1 Chron. 29:14-18[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] Christians are God’s household: Hebrews 3:6, Heb. 10:20-21, I Tim. 3:15, 1 Cor.3:9[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]5/ Israel are the priests of God: Exodus 19:6, Deut. 27:9[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] Christians are the priests of God: Isa. 66:21, 1 Peter 2:5-9, Rev. 1:6, Rev. 5:10[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]6/ Israel is the bride of God: Isaiah 54:5-6, Jer. 2:2, Eze. 16:32, Hosea 1:2[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] Christians are the bride of Christ: Isaiah 62:4-5, 2 Cor. 11:2, Ephesians 5:29-32[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]7/ Israel is the vine and the olive tree: Isaiah 5:7, Hosea 9:10, Hosea 14:6-7[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] Christians are the vine and the olive: Luke 20:16, Romans 11:24[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]8/ Israelites are the circumcised: Genesis 17:9-14, Judges 15:18[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] Christians are the ‘circumcised’: Romans 2:25-29, Phil. 3:3, Col. 2:11[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]9/ Israelites are the children of Abraham: [/SIZE] 2 Chron. 20:7, Psalm 105:5-6, Isa. 41:8
[SIZE=11pt] Christians are the spiritual children of Abraham: Rom. 4:13-18, Gal. 3:7& 29, John 4:23[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]10/ The Covenant is with Israel: Deut. 4:31, 2 Kings 17:34-36, Psalm 105:7-10[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] The New[/SIZE] [SIZE=11pt]Covenant is with Christians: 1 Cor. 11:25, Hebrews 8:6-10, Eze. 34:25[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]The above 10 proofs totally negate any argument that the Church and Israel are 2 separate entities. That premise is held and promoted by the pre-trib rapture exponents, who must have 2 groups; one removed to heaven, [themselves] and the Jews, [Israel] who remain on earth to face the Great Tribulation. The Jewish remnant eventually accept Jesus as Messiah. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]The truth is proven by how it is true Christian believers of every nation and language, Rev. 7:9, who gather in the holy Land soon after the Sixth Seal judgement/punishment of the nations. Hab. 3:12 They will be assigned to an appropriate Israelite tribe, according to each family’s characteristics. Then the 144,000 will be selected, 12,000 from each tribe, to go out and proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus. Rev 14:1-7, Isa 66:19[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]This new nation in the Middle East, will be called Beulah; Isaiah 62:1-5 They will live in peace and prosperity and when a large army comes down from the North, God will destroy them. Ezekiel 38-39, Joel 2:20[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Sometime later, the President of the One World Government will come to Beulah and convince ‘many’ of them to sign a seven year treaty of peace. Daniel 11:27, Isaiah 28:14-15 This marks the commencement of the final seven years of this age and is the 70[/SIZE]th year of Daniel 9:24, then at the mid-point, the O.W.G. dictator will invade and conquer Beulah. Zech. 14:1-2, Daniel 11:30-32, which triggers the Great Tribulation of the seven Trumpet and seven Bowl punishments. Rev. 12:7-13 But those Israelites who ‘faithful to their God’, will be taken to a place of safety, as described in Revelation 12:14. Then at the Return of Jesus, those faithful ones, the righteous ‘woman’ of Israel will experience a ‘rapture’ as they are gathered by the Lord’s angels ‘from the four winds’. Matthew 24:31 They will join the resurrected saints and will enjoy the great blessings of the Millennium. Isaiah 65:17-25 [78 scriptures quoted]