There is more than one set of apocryphas.

[Taken]

The RCC is not "the church" & the ecumenical movement is not lead by the Holy Spirit.

Agree.

"The Church" is "Christ's spiritual Church",
Not built with mens hands.
Christ Lord God, is the ROCK foundation of Christ's Church;
Christ the Lord Jesus, is the Chief Cornerstone of Christ's Church;
Christ the Lord, is the Holy Annointed Godhead of Christ's Church.
Every member of Christ's Church;
Is as stone upon stone.

1 Pet 2 [5] Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Lord God Almighty is thee Heavenly Holy Father; Of every member of Christ's Church.
Abraham is thee Promised Earthly Faithful father; Of every member of Christ's Church.

Luke 3
[8] Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[BreadOfLife]

Well I suppose sine @bbyrd009 is into those sort of things He could start a Pol for you.

Another post that makes absolutely zero sense.
What a surprise . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

No by His Holy Spirit

1Jn_2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

of course that means you must have His Spirit first.

WRONG.

His Church is led by the Holy Spirit to ALL truth (John 6:12-15).
Jesus didn't preach this to the crowds - but ONLY to His inner circle, the LEADERS of His Church. This guarantee is NOT made to the individual acting on his own - but ONLY as part of the Church.

This is why you have tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant factions who ALL teach different doctrines yet ALL claim they were "led" by the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is NOT the Author of Confusion.
Your Protestant Father were - and your leaders continue to be . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

God is the pillar and foundation of truth, not the church, which is not Catholicism.
15 if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

Oral and written were given by the apostles, not the church.

15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

Teachings, not traditions. Given by the apostles, not the church.

These verses were given when Catholicism did not exist.

WRONG again, Core.
1 Tim. 3:15 explicitly states that Christ's CHURCH is the pillar and foundation of truth.

If you know ANYTHING about languages, you would understand that the Church is the subject of this verse - not God. God is only mentioned here to describe what the Church IS - His household.

And YOU were an elected official??
YIKES . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

How many times to you Roman Catholics need to hear this that --the Church is not a reference to the RCC? A billion times? perhaps? just can't seem to grasp that fact can you. No I didn't think so.

I am LOVING that you persist in using these idiotic terms to describe the Church because it only magnifies your total ignorance.

Not only did I educate you on your incorrect usage of the term "Roman" Catholic - but now, you're referring to @historyb as a "Roman" Catholic - and he has repeatedly told you he's not even Catholic.

This is fun . . .

 

[Marymog]

Another little historical factoid about our friend Rabbi Akiba.

Around the time of the 2nd Jewish Revolt in the 2nd century - he claimed that a man named Simon Bar Kokhba was the real messiah. He turned out to be a false messiah and Akeebah was a false prophet.

So, Protestants get their OT Canon from a FALSE prophet . . .

I did read that but forgot to mention it.....Thank you.

I suspect @Enoch111 doesn't care WHERE he gets his "truth" from as long as it is anti-Catholic 'truth'!!!

Historical Mary

 

[Marymog]

Ok, so what now? What do we do? We can argue about what should we in the Bible, what was excluded, why, how and whatnot. Or we can go forward.

Don't get me wrong... Its important to acknowledge Bible development history... And personally I enjoy it while not knowing as much as I'd like.

But... We have enough trouble with what we have. Take the format of the NIV, KJV, NLT, NKJV and ESV. or any other popular today. We have enough arguements about what they contain.

I am not suggesting we stop talking and debating about Apocryphal books. Just wondering how fruitful it will be.

LOL....the argument about "what should be in the Bible" started 500 years ago. There is no "argument". There is only ignorance and a denial of authority.

I am suggesting opposite of you.....I am suggesting that we all stop debating this and accept the teaching of The Church. If we don't stop DEBATING and don't become ONE then Jesus prayer will never be fulfilled. I want His prayer fulfilled.....Don't you?

Mary

 

[CoreIssue]

Who said I was talking about Catholicism, let's not assume. Also you twisted the verse it clearly is saying the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth but your sola scriptura is wrong and it shows how you really follow what you think and not Scripture

I'm right.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I'm right.

Then please explain - linguistically - how you are "right" that 1 Tim. 3:15 is about God and NOT Christ's Church.

Let's break down the verse so that any 3rd grade English student can understand. I'll even use your revered Protestant KJV:
1 Tim. 3:15
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

- The primary subject of the sentence is "thou" - the secondary subject is the "house of God".
- The phrase that describes this "house of God" is called a prepositional phrase. The sentence makes sense with or without it but it is used to describe the subject.
- Finally - the term, "the pillar and groundwork of truth" refers back to the subject, which is the "house of God" (the Church).

You LOSE because you failed to do your English homework.
And YOU were an elected official??

 

[CoreIssue]

Then please explain - linguistically - how you are "right" that 1 Tim. 3:15 is about God and NOT Christ's Church.

Let's break down the verse so that any 3rd grade English student can understand. I'll even use your revered Protestant KJV:
1 Tim. 3:15
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

- The primary subject of the sentence is "thou" - the secondary subject is the "house of God".
- The phrase that describes this "house of God" is called a prepositional phrase. The sentence makes sense with or without it but it is used to describe the subject.
- Finally - the term, "the pillar and groundwork of truth" refers back to the subject, which is the "house of God" (the Church).

You LOSE because you failed to do your English homework.
And YOU were an elected official??

First of all, do not use archaic English that we do not speak today.

15 if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

Now just use proper grammar.

It defines the church as the household of God (Which is) and God as a pillar and foundation of truth (God, the pillar and foundation of the truth).

The subject is the conduct of the people within the church.

 

[BreadOfLife]

First of all, do not use archaic English that we do not speak today.

15 if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

Now just use proper grammar.

It defines the church as the household of God (Which is) and God as a pillar and foundation of truth (God, the pillar and foundation of the truth).

The subject is the conduct of the people within the church.

WRONG again.
You should have paid more attention in English class.

God is not a "which" - He is a "WHO".
You MIGHT have a case if Paul had written:
"If I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, WHO is the pillar and foundation of the truth."

Unfortunately for YOU - he didn't write that.
He wrote that about the pillar and foundation of truth - God's household - WHICH IS the Church of the living God.

Like I educated you before - get rid of the prepositional phrase, "WHICH IS the Church of the living God" and the sentence is STILL talking about the HOUSEHOLD - not God.

Ergo, the CHURCH is the pillar and foundation of truth NOT God.
God is truth itself (John 14:6).

 

[CoreIssue]

WRONG again.
You should have paid more attention in English class.

God is not a "which" - He is a "WHO".
You MIGHT have a case if Paul had written:
"If I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, WHO is the pillar and foundation of the truth."

Unfortunately for YOU - he didn't write that.
He wrote that about the pillar and foundation of truth - God's household - WHICH IS the Church of the living God.

Like I educated you before - get rid of the prepositional phrase, "WHICH IS the Church of the living God" and the sentence is STILL talking about the HOUSEHOLD - not God.

Ergo, the CHURCH is the pillar and foundation of truth NOT God.
God is truth itself (John 14:6).

You had to revert to archaic English then appeal to modern English to make that claim.

15 if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

God’s household, which is the church of the living God
living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth

 

[BreadOfLife]

You had to revert to archaic English then appeal to modern English to make that claim.

15 if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

God’s household, which is the church of the living God
living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth

Wrong.

It doesn't matter WHICH version of English - whether it is modern English or classic Elizabethan English - the verse comes out the same:
GOD is the "WHO" and the Church is the "WHICH" - and the "WHICH" is the pillar and foundation of truth.

Tell you what - I’ll defer to PROTESTANT scholarship on the matter.
These are not the ravings of an uninformed, angry anti-Catholic like yourself. They are serious scholarship based on serious linguistic research at the doctorate level . . .

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
The pillar and ground of the truth.—The imagery is here changed, and the “house of God” which the Apostle had just defined to be the Church, or congregation, belonging to the living God, and in the midst of which He was pleased to dwell, is now defined to be “the pillar and ground” (or, basis) “of the truth.”

Barnes’s Notes on the Bble
The pillar and ground of the truth - There has been no little diversity of opinion among critics whether this phrase is to be taken in connection with the preceding, meaning that "the church" is the pillar and ground of the truth; or whether it is to be taken in connection with what follows, meaning that the principal support of the truth was the doctrine there referred to - that God was manifest in the flesh. Bloomfield remarks on this: "It is surprising that any who have any knowledge or experience in Greek literature could tolerate so harsh a construction as that which arises from the latter method."

Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
The Church is, first, the house of God, and the Son of the living God its centre; and then this house is itself a centre, the central pillar of a larger house, the world, God’s home.

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
The Church is "the pillar of the truth," as the continued existence (historically) of the truth rests on it; for it supports and preserves the word of truth. He who is of the truth belongs by the very fact to the Church.

Matthew Poole's Commentary
The universal church (of which the church of Ephesus, over which Timothy had a charge, was a genuine part) is, in the sense before expressed, the pillar and supporter, or seat, of truth.

Vincent’s Word Studies
The idea is that the church is the pillar, and, as such, the prop or support of the truth.

 

[CoreIssue]

WRONG.

His Church is led by the Holy Spirit to ALL truth (John 6:12-15).
Jesus didn't preach this to the crowds - but ONLY to His inner circle, the LEADERS of His Church. This guarantee is NOT made to the individual acting on his own - but ONLY as part of the Church.

This is why you have tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant factions who ALL teach different doctrines yet ALL claim they were "led" by the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is NOT the Author of Confusion.
Your Protestant Father were - and your leaders continue to be . . .

There was no church when Christ was on the earth. It was still Israel and the Mosaic law.

 

[CoreIssue]

Wrong.

It doesn't matter WHICH version of English - whether it is modern English or classic Elizabethan English - the verse comes out the same:
GOD is the "WHO" and the Church is the "WHICH" - and the "WHICH" is the pillar and foundation of truth.

Tell you what - I’ll defer to PROTESTANT scholarship on the matter.
These are not the ravings of an uninformed, angry anti-Catholic like yourself. They are serious scholarship based on serious linguistic research at the doctorate level . . .

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
The pillar and ground of the truth.—The imagery is here changed, and the “house of God” which the Apostle had just defined to be the Church, or congregation, belonging to the living God, and in the midst of which He was pleased to dwell, is now defined to be “the pillar and ground” (or, basis) “of the truth.”

Barnes’s Notes on the Bble
The pillar and ground of the truth - There has been no little diversity of opinion among critics whether this phrase is to be taken in connection with the preceding, meaning that "the church" is the pillar and ground of the truth; or whether it is to be taken in connection with what follows, meaning that the principal support of the truth was the doctrine there referred to - that God was manifest in the flesh. Bloomfield remarks on this: "It is surprising that any who have any knowledge or experience in Greek literature could tolerate so harsh a construction as that which arises from the latter method."

Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
The Church is, first, the house of God, and the Son of the living God its centre; and then this house is itself a centre, the central pillar of a larger house, the world, God’s home.

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
The Church is "the pillar of the truth," as the continued existence (historically) of the truth rests on it; for it supports and preserves the word of truth. He who is of the truth belongs by the very fact to the Church.

Matthew Poole's Commentary
The universal church (of which the church of Ephesus, over which Timothy had a charge, was a genuine part) is, in the sense before expressed, the pillar and supporter, or seat, of truth.

Vincent’s Word Studies
The idea is that the church is the pillar, and, as such, the prop or support of the truth.

None of those claims say Catholic.

 

[BreadOfLife]

There was no church when Christ was on the earth. It was still Israel and the Mosaic law.

What are you talking about??
We weren't discussing this.

YOU are responding to my response to mjrhealth who was trying to show - and failed miserably - that we learn directly from the Holy Spirit and not the Church. John 16:12-15, along with Matt. 28:19 completely destroys that false idea.

 

[BreadOfLife]

None of those claims say Catholic.

And that was NEVER the argument.

I simply stated that the CHURCH was the pillar and foundation of truth - as per 1 Tim. 3:15.
YOU are the one who tried to refute this Scriptural fact - and you were proven WRONG by your own Protestant scholars . . .

 

[CoreIssue]

And that was NEVER the argument.

I simply stated that the CHURCH was the pillar and foundation of truth - as per 1 Tim. 3:15.
YOU are the one who tried to refute this Scriptural fact - and you were proven WRONG by your own Protestant scholars . . .

I am refuting what you claim, not what the Bible says.

Not being honest. Your definition of church is Catholicism.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I am refuting what you claim, not what the Bible says.
Not being honest. Your definition of church is Catholicism.

That was NEVER the argument.
What you're doing now is damage control. You LOST this argument - and now you're trying to move the goal posts.

ANYBODY who wants to go back to the beginning of this particular argument need only go back as far as post #113, where YOU first stated that GOD was the pillar and foundation of truth - NOT the Church. EVERY one of your posts since then has been a failure to properly exegete 1 Tim. 3:15.

You've been proven wrong again.
Consider yourself Scripturally and linguistically SPANKED . . .

 

[FHII]

Concerning 1 Tim 3:15, I have read the arguements on both sides, revisited the entire chapter, and looked at other scriptures as well.

The verse does have a level of ambiguity to it. On the surface we do not know if God is the pillar and ground of truth, or if Paul is speaking of the Church.

It goes without saying that God is. Of course he is. We don't need this verse to know that. However, who was Paul speaking of?

A few things:

1. This epistle is written to Timothy with the purpose of intructing him how to run a Church. Its not directly an exhaultation of God. It does that, but it is not the purpose.

2. Punctuation offers no help. Its not wrong, but colons or semicolons would've cleared it up. However, as it is written, the phrase "which is the Church of the living God" is an elaboration. For God's purpose, its needed. But grammar wise it isn't. Its there to give further information; not to interrupt the flow.
3. I can't think of another verse to back up the notion that the Church is the pillar/ground, but I have plenty pointing to the importance of a Church with a govt structure. Eph 1 calls the Church the fullness of Christ. In ch 4 he said God gave apostles , prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers for the pefecting of the saints. In other words, God is perfecting the Church, but he is doing it through his ministers.

So I gotta side the BOL on this one. The Church is the pillar and ground of the truth.

BUT

That in no way is permission to set your own rules. There is great respinsibility with it. If the church forms an untruthful doctrine, they are disqualified in being God's Church.

So the Church is the pillar and ground of truth. But is an identifying mark: if they aren't preaching truth... They aren't really God's Church.