There is no constant witness to Jesus, but one immersive mystery in the gospel (Discuss)

[Gottservant]

Hi there,

So there is a pitfall, when it comes to the faith, that if you believe it (the faith), then there will be some concrete way to witness to it. Jesus on the cross, is a constant, so the theory goes, there must be some constant way to witness to Him. That is not so. Why is it not so? Because faith comes by hearing and that by the Word of God. Christ on the Cross, is Christ's faith, not ours! We can't take from Him, His being on the Cross, because He still wanted to be there. When we sin, when we are unrighteous, when we fight with the Devil, Christ thinks back to the Cross and how by that He might save us. He has compassion. Even while we struggle.

We have to remember, that Christ chose us, not to become puppets, but to love. If we were compelled by a particular doctrine to love the Cross more, that would not be "love". That said, love is still needed. So it is that God granted us to be immersed in the mystery of the Cross. Be immersing ourselves, we become stronger swimmers, the same fish we were (as men of the past) but more capable. This enables us to develop compassion. Compassion does not rule men in or out, but encourages them to swim as we do. If we can swim together, we can begin to appeal to the faith, which is established by the Cross. Not that the Cross no longer be a mystery, but that the Cross become more of a mystery.

How are men persuaded by a mystery? In part that remains a mystery! But in part, we know, that it is also a work of the Holy Spirit. Some small part of the mystery in us, comes to have a fascination in the men of the world. They think they can grasp it, but don't; think they will go without, but don't. This is the working of the Spirit - that there be something of Christ, that can be imparted to them, free of charge! By the end, the Cross is more a mystery than we ever imagined: but in it we have done good, remained in faith and trusted that the Gospel would reach the lost. This is power. Power of Word. We should not ever expect to be doing the work of God in its entirety (that is where many false preachers get caught, actually - thinking that they have satisfied the Wrath of God, through their religion).

Some days we may fulfil part of the Gospel, others more, it is not our doing: we must learn to trust the unction of the Holy Spirit - He alone can make a way, where there is no way. It will not persuade many, that we know this: this is just for our edification (our spiritual nourishment). We will know the mystery of the Gospel more but we will never know it completely, until that Day when we are in Heaven, fully aware of our faith before God. We must be mindful not to promise more than this, actually: God is not interested in believers that know the Gospel in and out, but those (believers) whose heart is rent before Him, that He have pity on them. Pity from God, is a sustaining quenching (of the fire that burns us in sin and that burns in the worm of our iniquity sin not cut off).

I hope this has been of some encouragement, that you know where you stand and why you ask for pity (from God) the way that you do.

God bless.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Hi there,

So there is a pitfall, when it comes to the faith, that if you believe it (the faith), then there will be some concrete way to witness to it. Jesus on the cross, is a constant, so the theory goes, there must be some constant way to witness to Him. That is not so. Why is it not so? Because faith comes by hearing and that by the Word of God. Christ on the Cross, is Christ's faith, not ours! We can't take from Him, His being on the Cross, because He still wanted to be there. When we sin, when we are unrighteous, when we fight with the Devil, Christ thinks back to the Cross and how by that He might save us. He has compassion. Even while we struggle.

We have to remember, that Christ chose us, not to become puppets, but to love. If we were compelled by a particular doctrine to love the Cross more, that would not be "love". That said, love is still needed. So it is that God granted us to be immersed in the mystery of the Cross. Be immersing ourselves, we become stronger swimmers, the same fish we were (as men of the past) but more capable. This enables us to develop compassion. Compassion does not rule men in or out, but encourages them to swim as we do. If we can swim together, we can begin to appeal to the faith, which is established by the Cross. Not that the Cross no longer be a mystery, but that the Cross become more of a mystery.

How are men persuaded by a mystery? In part that remains a mystery! But in part, we know, that it is also a work of the Holy Spirit. Some small part of the mystery in us, comes to have a fascination in the men of the world. They think they can grasp it, but don't; think they will go without, but don't. This is the working of the Spirit - that there be something of Christ, that can be imparted to them, free of charge! By the end, the Cross is more a mystery than we ever imagined: but in it we have done good, remained in faith and trusted that the Gospel would reach the lost. This is power. Power of Word. We should not ever expect to be doing the work of God in its entirety (that is where many false preachers get caught, actually - thinking that they have satisfied the Wrath of God, through their religion).

Some days we may fulfil part of the Gospel, others more, it is not our doing: we must learn to trust the unction of the Holy Spirit - He alone can make a way, where there is no way. It will not persuade many, that we know this: this is just for our edification (our spiritual nourishment). We will know the mystery of the Gospel more but we will never know it completely, until that Day when we are in Heaven, fully aware of our faith before God. We must be mindful not to promise more than this, actually: God is not interested in believers that know the Gospel in and out, but those (believers) whose heart is rent before Him, that He have pity on them. Pity from God, is a sustaining quenching (of the fire that burns us in sin and that burns in the worm of our iniquity sin not cut off).

I hope this has been of some encouragement, that you know where you stand and why you ask for pity (from God) the way that you do.

God bless.

You assume others "ask for pity from God?" Why is that? But I agree that faith is more than a dogmatic lesson on what I believe the Cross means. It is hearing, by faith, what God is speaking to my conscience day by day, hour by hour. If we are to share God's word, it must come from within the heart.

That being said, what we share must be rooted in an understanding of the Cross because without it, there is no object upon which we can rest our faith. Our faith must rest squarely on him who died for our sins so that we can enjoy peace from God and offer that peace to others.

 

[Gottservant]

You assume others "ask for pity from God?" Why is that? But I agree that faith is more than a dogmatic lesson on what I believe the Cross means. It is hearing, by faith, what God is speaking to my conscience day by day, hour by hour. If we are to share God's word, it must come from within the heart.

That being said, what we share must be rooted in an understanding of the Cross because without it, there is no object upon which we can rest our faith. Our faith must rest squarely on him who died for our sins so that we can enjoy peace from God and offer that peace to others.

What's interesting about what you said, is that you Randy Kluth find peace fundamental. Why do you, Randy Kluth, believe in peace?

Do you understand what I am saying? The mystery concerning peace, you have immersed yourself in, is in contrast to God, who gives you that peace.

At times you might think that peace is persuasive and at other times not, but at no point do you doubt it, for the sake of those that are still coming into the faith - not that that proves it is "faith", just that you recognize the mystery might be deeper for others, than it is for you.

Mystery upon mystery, that is what I am trying to grasp!

 

[Randy Kluth]

What's interesting about what you said, is that you Randy Kluth find peace fundamental. Why do you, Randy Kluth, believe in peace?

Do you understand what I am saying? The mystery concerning peace, you have immersed yourself in, is in contrast to God, who gives you that peace.

At times you might think that peace is persuasive and at other times not, but at no point do you doubt it, for the sake of those that are still coming into the faith - not that that proves it is "faith", just that you recognize the mystery might be deeper for others, than it is for you.

Mystery upon mystery, that is what I am trying to grasp!

I understand the "mystery" that you claim is present in Christianity, but it sounds an awful lot like existential philosophy. I believe truth, even experiential truth, must be rooted in dogma. Our intellect requires a bedrock of understanding, or things become so subjective that spiritual experience gets lost.

Nobody can hang onto spiritual experience. It comes from God whenever God so desires. We live our lives rooted on rationality, and only keep ourselves aligned with God when we remain faithful to religious truth.

What that means, in a practical sense, is that we recognize what a "holy God" means in terms of our spiritual relationship with Him, and know what "holiness" even means. For me personally, it is my sense of "divine love" that keeps me focused on the thing that aligns with spiritual experience so that I'm available for however the supernatural God wishes to use me, or not.

With this in mind I suggest that for me "peace" expresses this rational approach towards the Cross, in which I act in the belief that I'm forgiven. In reality, if I'm still sinning I cannot have this peace. So avoiding sins, or unloving ways, keeps me open to spiritual experience with God. And I define this as "peace," which is both a rational belief in forgiveness and a spiritual experience, which varies from day to day.

Some days I'm more coarse with others, and seem to lack "peace." But I can always come back through repentance, and know when I've repented. This brings not only a rational sense that peace is available to me, but the very love that I return to is a spiritual sense of being restored to God, which is what I believe "peace" is.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Truth is not reserved for God alone. Peace is not reserved for Christ alone. Understanding spiritual realities does not require perfection. Christ is perfect, but he gave spiritual experience to us without holding our imperfections against us.

We do not need to understand things as perfectly as Christ did. We need only to understand who he is and accept the relationship that we can have when we accept his proposal of spiritual experience to us. We can know who Christ is simply by meeting him as he really is, a revelation of Deity.

The spiritual experience he offers us is a godly character and a holy life, a life of righteousness. This is a spiritual experience, and one that we can have even though we fall short regularly. The fact we can have it and retain it means that we can be viewed as righteous people to God. And indeed, sharing regularly in his righteous character makes us righteous before God.

This isn't a "mystery" so much as a demonstration of great grace. It may be difficult to comprehend the extension of God's character to flawed human beings. But we can understand it and experience it.

The difficulty, I believe, is in understanding the difference between our choice to do right and our choice to be godly. They are very different in the outcome, though similar in the legalities.

When we choose to do right, we can do so without a change in basic character. But when we choose to become godly, we are choosing to don a righteous character, and to assume an attitude of choosing to do right regularly.

More than just choosing to do something right we are choosing to *be* right. Choosing to put on a godly nature is what guarantees a stable spiritual experience, as opposed to fleeting experiences. And it is this "fleeting experience" that renders spiritual experience fuzzy and overly "mysterious."

 

[Gottservant]

Truth is not reserved for God alone. Peace is not reserved for Christ alone. Understanding spiritual realities does not require perfection. Christ is perfect, but he gave spiritual experience to us without holding our imperfections against us.

[...]

More than just choosing to do something right we are choosing to *be* right. Choosing to put on a godly nature is what guarantees a stable spiritual experience, as opposed to fleeting experiences. And it is this "fleeting experience" that renders spiritual experience fuzzy and overly "mysterious."

You started to speak my language, there (with truth and peace). You understand that the Gospel transcends the record of the Bible, as long as it can come back to the Bible with more experience.

My concern is that you retain the idea, that you can hold on to the mystery of Christ. You may get a fragment of experience, holding on to the Gospel, but in no way does that diminish the mystery.

You have to understand, I spend almost all my waking life, trying to understand how to contradict Evolution - and one of their tenets is that any progressive phenomenon (like experience) can be explained in terms of what you are committed to and how. If I try to uphold the idea that my experience is coherently beyond adaptation (say), I am shot down in seconds: with phrases like "you are only doing it for self-preservation", "if selection pressure changes, so will your faith". The correct stance, as I have come to learn it, is to affirm the mystery of Christ - that way you are beyond material criticism.

What I think you will agree, is that even if spiritual experience is possible, there is a point at which we are 'saturated' with experience - our cup literally overflows. I practice this through meditation. Do I turn to meditation as an alternative to the word? No, but that Jesus said "By patience possess your souls" (gospels, from memory). Also in the Old Testament, we have "Be still and know that I am God". So there is not a vacuum in my practice, as pertains to giving place to mystery. I practice the mystery! How much more experiential is that?

Let the Holy Spirit speak to you about it, He can do a far better job than me. But to know what mystery you have for eternity - what Joy!

 

[Gottservant]

I think what is mysterious about me personally, is that I want to share the mystery with others that have not known it.

If the gospel were about me, it would make sense; if others had the same mystery as me, it would make sense.

As it is, I succumb to the Holy Spirit and air His Graces, for all to see!

 

[Randy Kluth]

You started to speak my language, there (with truth and peace). You understand that the Gospel transcends the record of the Bible, as long as it can come back to the Bible with more experience.

How can God and His Word *not* transcend the Bible? God is not the Bible! If you read the Bible mystically you can get God. If you talk to God in prayer you can get God. You know this!

My concern is that you retain the idea, that you can hold on to the mystery of Christ. You may get a fragment of experience, holding on to the Gospel, but in no way does that diminish the mystery.

When you look through a mud-stained window and see a beautiful landscape beyond you can't say it's a mystery. It's a reality, merely obstructed by muddy stains.

You have to understand, I spend almost all my waking life, trying to understand how to contradict Evolution - and one of their tenets is that any progressive phenomenon (like experience) can be explained in terms of what you are committed to and how. If I try to uphold the idea that my experience is coherently beyond adaptation (say), I am shot down in seconds: with phrases like "you are only doing it for self-preservation", "if selection pressure changes, so will your faith". The correct stance, as I have come to learn it, is to affirm the mystery of Christ - that way you are beyond material criticism.

Claiming their narrative fits your rationale doesn't justify their narrative. Obviously, things got here on the earth progressively with no scientific analysis available at the time. Evolutionists have to assume nature was undisturbed by God, since they see no evidence of divine disturbances of nature today. An apple falls from the tree, and we never see God catch the apple.

There is evidence in the fossil record and in the geological record such that we try to piece together what happened assuming God didn't interrupt the natural processes. But just saying that the idea of creation is an evasion doesn't hold water. It's just as evasive to say that things progressively evolved.

I know there's lots of intelligent people arguing evolution out there on the internet. I've seen it. I can't really argue it in depth because it requires deep scientific understanding, comparing one species with another with respect to their common DNA.

No matter how God did it, He did it--there is no other explanation. The biblical account has no detail--just a structure justifying a 7 day pattern, distinguishing between various living things. It is a supernatural account that requires faith, but so does every religion.

What makes Judaic belief on this matter relevant is that Christianity came out of it, along with some amazing Prophets and Apostles. And they have literally changed the world. The biggest change is our own spiritual transformation, with accompanying fruits of Christian character.

You may call this a "mystery." But it says nothing about evolution. Still, the plan set forth in the Scriptures is true to life. Man appears to be created good and evidences a fallen nature, which we call rebellion against God. All men in reality do have this character defect. Not only do we rebel against God's word, but we rebel against human authority as well.

Furthermore, the plan of God as revealed to Abraham has come true in all of history (Gen 12; 17). Israel became an important national representation of God's Kingdom on earth. And this was passed on to Roman Civilization, later known as European Civilization. All this is true, with its accompanying evidence of social and individual transformation.

What I think you will agree, is that even if spiritual experience is possible, there is a point at which we are 'saturated' with experience - our cup literally overflows. I practice this through meditation. Do I turn to meditation as an alternative to the word? No, but that Jesus said "By patience possess your souls" (gospels, from memory). Also in the Old Testament, we have "Be still and know that I am God". So there is not a vacuum in my practice, as pertains to giving place to mystery. I practice the mystery! How much more experiential is that?

Let the Holy Spirit speak to you about it, He can do a far better job than me. But to know what mystery you have for eternity - what Joy!

Eastern Meditation empties the mind, I think, to be filled with a drug-like spirituality. Judeo-Christian meditation has as its object God's word within our conscience. If we meditate on righteousness, and pray for good things, our meditation is rational, and not a "mystery."

Don't get me wrong. God will always be supra-rational, and some of it will always be "mystery." But we have to found our experience on a rational approach to God's word, which is obedience to the command to be loving.

 

[Gottservant]

How can God and His Word *not* transcend the Bible? God is not the Bible! If you read the Bible mystically you can get God. If you talk to God in prayer you can get God. You know this!

When you look through a mud-stained window and see a beautiful landscape beyond you can't say it's a mystery. It's a reality, merely obstructed by muddy stains.

[...]

You may call this a "mystery."

[...]

Don't get me wrong. God will always be supra-rational, and some of it will always be "mystery." But we have to found our experience on a rational approach to God's word, which is obedience to the command to be loving.

Some of it will always be a mystery - exactly my point (though I would go further and say all of it will be a mystery).

Maybe what you are saying is that it is not a mystery to God? But I would doubt that also!

I'm still lacking in how exactly you direct your focus, in order to gain more experience in the mystery of God - if you are wondering why your messages are not getting through (entirely), my lack of wisdom may be the reason.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Some of it will always be a mystery - exactly my point (though I would go further and say all of it will be a mystery).

Maybe what you are saying is that it is not a mystery to God? But I would doubt that also!

I'm still lacking in how exactly you direct your focus, in order to gain more experience in the mystery of God - if you are wondering why your messages are not getting through (entirely), my lack of wisdom may be the reason.

No, I think we just have different experiences on the discussion of "mystery." I've been affected by those who direct things away from concrete truths of morality to something "mysterious," intangible, and thus lacking in conviction and resolution. To them I would say that the mystery of God, which I agree with you is real, is also within reach of our senses and intellect.

And so, we are convicted by the voice of God to our conscience, calling us to be loving in every situation in which we find ourselves. It is not nebulous, but plain and simple--something all of us can understand and obey. The "mystery," as you refer to it legitimately, is the transcendence of God, such that in speaking to God and in experiencing Him we are always recognizing a vast space between ourselves and Deity.

In a very practical sense, this is how I look at Him on many occasion. I see how God directs the small things in my life, moment by moment, and then realize how He does that for every person in the world...simultaneously. At the same time He is managing the life needs of insects, the needs of the existence of germs, the properties of atoms and molecules, and governs it all without limitation.

It's like God has a million eyes, a million brains, and a million personalities all working at once with such incredible detail that it exceeds the detail of anything in existence. He has all the time in the world to manage each little square inch of space in the universe, and does so intelligently and compassionately, in according with His plan and blueprint.

Is it a mystery? How can it not be? But for those of us who know God, we actually touch that mystery, and wonder: how can He love us, things that He made?

I'm not trying to wax eloquent. I struggle with this every day. It's truly a wonder. But what rescues me is that I do feel His love, and see some of His intelligent design in my life. He actually communicates with each one of us. How does He do that?

 

[Gottservant]

The "mystery," as you refer to it legitimately, is the transcendence of God, such that in speaking to God and in experiencing Him we are always recognizing a vast space between ourselves and Deity.

I was worried you were going to go off track, until you said this "the mystery includes a vast space between ourselves and Deity" - that made complete sense to me. I think the attraction of the mystery, for me, is that I can forget myself; that what I think of myself, is not the final assessment. It's humbling for me, to think "here I am, with all my intellect, and I can't grasp it". Whereas for you it is "here I am, with all my weakness before God and I can experience it".

Is it a mystery? How can it not be? But for those of us who know God, we actually touch that mystery, and wonder: how can He love us, things that He made?

I'm not trying to wax eloquent. I struggle with this every day. It's truly a wonder. But what rescues me is that I do feel His love, and see some of His intelligent design in my life. He actually communicates with each one of us. How does He do that?

I wish I understood, why He made us different; I suppose you wonder, why I struggle so much to grasp more and more.

I had a long period, where I didn't serve God, and it has shaped me, I started to look for a way out of the faith and I never found it, but I became aware that what my soul needed, wouldn't be satisfied by this life.

I guess that's where I worry about you; if you have experienced God so much in this life, how are you going to care, when its the next life? Maybe that's not for you to answer, I don't know. But it helps to understand the context you are working in, if you can?

 

[Randy Kluth]

I was worried you were going to go off track, until you said this "the mystery includes a vast space between ourselves and Deity" - that made complete sense to me. I think the attraction of the mystery, for me, is that I can forget myself; that what I think of myself, is not the final assessment. It's humbling for me, to think "here I am, with all my intellect, and I can't grasp it". Whereas for you it is "here I am, with all my weakness before God and I can experience it".

I wish I understood, why He made us different; I suppose you wonder, why I struggle so much to grasp more and more.

I had a long period, where I didn't serve God, and it has shaped me, I started to look for a way out of the faith and I never found it, but I became aware that what my soul needed, wouldn't be satisfied by this life.

I guess that's where I worry about you; if you have experienced God so much in this life, how are you going to care, when its the next life? Maybe that's not for you to answer, I don't know. But it helps to understand the context you are working in, if you can?

I couldn't resist God. In my youth, when I tried to see nothing I did as "sin," I got into greater and greater problems. Ultimately, I had to confess that going God's way is the only way. When I committed all to Him, I experienced something of His power, and thought it was wonderful.

Then I thought, what if I ran out of love for this? So I prayed, day after day, and many times, that God would keep me and give me a love for Him. It never seemed enough that I pray this for myself because I didn't know how fragile my love for God was?

But here I am, having lived an entire life, and still have a fire burning inside for the Lord. I still don't know how it happens? It's something He has to give us.

It's a mystery in a sense. But it's also not much of a mystery in the sense that it fits the narrative we've been given. I experience that narrative, and so, I'm not surprised it is as it is. He is self-motivated in His love. We rely on Him, and need Him, to exercise His love. In return for doing so, we find assurance.

 

[Gottservant]

I couldn't resist God. In my youth, [...]

Then I thought, what if I ran out of love for this

[...]

But here I am, having lived an entire life, and still have a fire burning inside for the Lord. I still don't know how it happens? It's something He has to give us.

It's a mystery in a sense.

[...]

I love that you come back to calling it a mystery, but I think I have worked out where the root of the problem is: I have faith that God will forgive my sins, but I also have faith, that God (if He has to) will keep forgiving my sins. I am dependent, on Him (as you said you were); He catches me up in joy (as you said you had) and I do not know how (as you admitted you do not know). I am a child to Him. I have no doubt that He loved me.

It makes sense that you prayed for love, also - that is inspirational. I remember telling the Lord "Lord, if you ever want me to cry, I will cry". He requites these kind of prayers. But I think more than that, is to be in Awe of Him. That's where I come to the mystery; once I realise I will never get, the depth of His mystery, I gradually fill with awe, that He has done this, that all my experience of Him is like flotsam and jetsam sitting on the surface of the waters. I pick up some experience, and examine it and it still is no explanation of the depth of His mystery. Then I let myself sit on the surface of the waters, arms out, feet apart, and I am just adrift in that Awe.

Maybe I will come around to seeking out specific experiences, as time passes by, that I will be bored with just floating in awe - but I doubt it, at this stage. (Don't we all doubt change, before it is apparent to us?) I think what I will do, is to continue to pray for a love of God, as you have - that would solve a lot of problems, for me! I'm not trying to diminish your experience - God has made us differently - but I still need a context, from which I can grow: I need some connection with the experience specifically of Awe. I think if I face the end, with sufficient Awe, experience will just make sense to me naturally.

What do you think?

 

[Randy Kluth]

I love that you come back to calling it a mystery, but I think I have worked out where the root of the problem is: I have faith that God will forgive my sins, but I also have faith, that God (if He has to) will keep forgiving my sins. I am dependent, on Him (as you said you were); He catches me up in joy (as you said you had) and I do not know how (as you admitted you do not know). I am a child to Him. I have no doubt that He loved me.

It makes sense that you prayed for love, also - that is inspirational. I remember telling the Lord "Lord, if you ever want me to cry, I will cry". He requites these kind of prayers. But I think more than that, is to be in Awe of Him. That's where I come to the mystery; once I realise I will never get, the depth of His mystery, I gradually fill with awe, that He has done this, that all my experience of Him is like flotsam and jetsam sitting on the surface of the waters. I pick up some experience, and examine it and it still is no explanation of the depth of His mystery. Then I let myself sit on the surface of the waters, arms out, feet apart, and I am just adrift in that Awe.

Maybe I will come around to seeking out specific experiences, as time passes by, that I will be bored with just floating in awe - but I doubt it, at this stage. (Don't we all doubt change, before it is apparent to us?) I think what I will do, is to continue to pray for a love of God, as you have - that would solve a lot of problems, for me! I'm not trying to diminish your experience - God has made us differently - but I still need a context, from which I can grow: I need some connection with the experience specifically of Awe. I think if I face the end, with sufficient Awe, experience will just make sense to me naturally.

What do you think?

I think you need to know the "context" of this "mystery," as you describe it. I don't suffer any illusion about how far I can go with God--I simply pursue Him and am content with what He gives me.

I never grow bored with God. And I'm not interested in ascending into higher experiences. I simply want to love God and to be loved by God.

We can each be special all on our own by simply following this formula: love God and be happy with His love for us. Whatever it takes to fulfill us He knows already because He created us with the desires that we uniquely have. But we must lay down any ambition that wishes to depreciate others. It is our duty to lift others up to their potential. In so doing we love God and are loved by Him.