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Featured There Is No Purgatory. It Is Not In God's Character To Give 2nd Chances After We Leave Our Flesh

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by jshiii, Dec 21, 2019.

  1. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    Two thoughts on this: firstly, unless one plans to compose a dissertation for all to read, a sentence or two on the subject must, by necessity, be simple.
    Which leads me to the second thought: I'm on a Christian forum on a Christian thread; I would expect that the vast majority of people I'm speaking to have a firm grasp on the basics of salvation. Thus giving a 'simple' statement on how one finds salvation is not going to be met with bafflement. Now, if I was speaking to someone who was not a believer, indeed, had no idea of God, of Christ or how God's plan of redemption unfolded, I would begin very differently and move at a different pace. Groundwork must be laid.
    So, I'm sorry if you feel I've run too far ahead of you with Christian terminology, but the simple fact is that most people here are, in fact, Christians, and do not struggle with them. There is a "Christian Newbies" thread which might be better suited for you, which would be ideal for learning such things. But it is unrealistic to demand the rest of us stop using the language of scripture...or to write the dissertation every post, just because we are at different stages. The place of 'new in' Christ is just as amazing as those 'getting on' in Christ, but the bible specifically exhorts us to move on to deeper things when we can, to leave the 'milk' behind and move onto food. And this is what these threads are for...for us to discuss these things. I'm not sure how you would suggest we do that without using the terminology or ideas they represent.

    Ah...I was not aware of having said that our self-sacrificial obedience comes before Christ. In fact, my point was that it cannot. As I said, salvation comes from Christ, from his gift of grace, from his work on the cross. Once we have received that gift, once our souls have been rescued from sin, then we respond with obedience.

    Man, and you say people will have "no way to decipher your cryptic sayings" from me! You either have completely and totally missed what I've said, or you swapping back and forth so hard I'm getting whiplash.
    First you say: "God's salvation comes through self sacrificial obedience to god."
    Then, when I object and say that salvation comes not through obedience, but through Christ alone, you agree. But then, you seemingly forget that you had agreed with me and what I'd said a sentence latter by saying this: " I know what you're trying to say, but the fact is that Christ comes first".
    Ah...yeah. That's what I DID say.
    And then your response above. "It is the only way to salvation". That was a direct reply to me saying that obedience is "clearly taught, it's just that it's not taught as a way to salvation. That would make it a works based salvation."
    Like I said; whiplash.

    However, let me take a moment to try and work the kinks out of my neck. The "gospel message" is absolutely NOT a works based salvation.

    Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

    The faith we receive to believe in Christ IS a gift of God. That makes it all of God's doing, not ours. Thus when we become God's children in Christ we know it was not of our doing, but his. It is in this thankfullness we respond in obedience. And it is through the Spirit dwelling within us we have the power to respond in obedience.
     
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  2. shnarkle

    shnarkle Well-Known Member

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    It should also be relevant.
    And yet you have no problem doing just that with this post of yours. Seems you have different priorities.

    Yes. Quite true.

    Yep.

    And I agreed with you.

    Yeshua is the personification of God's salvation. That is literally what the word means.

    It is absolutely through the self sacrificial work of Christ's perfect life, and atoning sacrifice on the cross.



    Not the best translation. Faith is a work. For by grace you have been saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves" It is not your faith, but the faith of Christ.


    Agreed.

    Agreed. The problem is that Christianity then turns right around and justifies open defiant rebellion against God's law. No wonder you've got whiplash.
     
  3. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    First I am being to 'cryptic and simplistic' with my statement of the gospel, now I'm not being relevant enough, despite it being the very topic we were discussing. Do you know what I think? That probably nothing that hasn't come from your mouth will please you.


    :rolleyes::D
    Thank you for proving my point. "Too little, shame on you!" "Too much, I sniff in disdain at you!"

    Just fyi, when you say "I know what you're trying to say, BUT the fact is...."
    It usually will be understood to mean you are correcting or objecting to a person, not agreeing with them.

    Ah, relevance, that wonderful two-edged sword! It's nice that's what Jesus' name means, and I don't disagree with you at all here. But how does that at all change the point?
    The point being that to the remark "obedience is clearly taught, it's just that it's not taught as a way to salvation. That would make it a works based salvation.".....you replied: "It is the only way to salvation"
    The meaning of Jesus' name doesn't change your reply to this, does it? Which would suggest all the "I agreed with you"s above are strangely baffling.



    Absolutely salvation is due to Christ's work on the cross. But that is NOT what 'salvation by works' means, if we are talking terminology. And it dangerous to try and conflate the two. 'Salvation by works' is a term that is, by and large, understood by the majority of Christianity, to mean earning one's salvation by our OWN works. In other words, Christ does not come into it and we get to pat ourselves on the back. By confusing the 'work' of Christ on the cross, you run the risk of confusion those who are more 'unsure' in Christ...you remember, those people you cautioned me about earlier. In scripture we see the term 'works' bandied about often, and each time it is in regard to salvation via works, not via Christ. I'm sure you can understand the importance in separating the two, and given the biblical emphasis, why the majority of Christendom uses 'works' in a negative light.

    Not that I've noticed any whiplash from 'Christianity', and I'll probably regret asking this, but how, pray tell, does it then 'justifies open rebellion against God's law"?
     
  4. shnarkle

    shnarkle Well-Known Member

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    What it means is that you're not posting what you actually mean to post. I agree with what you are trying to say, but you're not quite there yet. It happens.
    It changes the point because when one comprehends that the names are intended to point to the message, then the message becomes clear rather than ignoring the message and instead focusing on a personality. God's salvation is the way, and that can only come through self sacrifice. When Yeshua says he is the way, the truth and the life, he is not referring to his persona, but to God's salvation. Christ makes himself transparent so that the father may be revealed through him. He isn't the door, he's the doorway. He's the window, which should be looked through rather than looked at.

    God's salvation is through self sacrificial obedience personified in Christ's life and crucifixion. The crucifixion is an illustration of the teaching. To live in self sacrificial obedience is to live a resurrected life. It is revealed through Christ, and those who this is revealed to necessarily follow through self sacrificial obedience.



    It's not just Christ's work on the cross, but his perfect obedience in living according to God's laws.

    It is only Christ who lives in the new creation that can do this.

    That's just the problem. You can't separate the two. Christ himself points out that, "Apart from me, you can do nothing". Paul affirms this when he says, "not me, but Christ in me". There is only Christ.

    The majority of Christians are also admitting that they are still trying to keep the law when that is explicitly works. They have not surrendered to God at all. They are still operating under the exact same conditions of the Old Covenant, and then assuming that they are part of the New.


    By justifying profanation of the Sabbath, ignoring the dietary laws, defiantly ignoring Christ's own teaching on divorce, enslaving themselves to usury.
     
  5. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    Brother; you can't even get straight what you're trying to say, let alone what I'm saying. But, you know....it's real nice of you to tell me that you know better than I what it is I'm 'trying' to say. I've said it quite clearly, there is no confusion there, I assure you. But, do go on.

    You know, its a little sad that only you and I are here, so that no one can appreciate the irony of that amazingly convoluted idea that just fell on its face. But don't worry, I won't tell you I 'know what you're trying to say', because I haven't a clue. All I know, is it don't make a lick of sense.
    You can argue all you want that Christ's personality and character don't matter, but it's simply illogical thinking. For a sinless man to be offered in our place character and personality had to be there. His name points to WHO he was, "God is salvation"...my word he is. But if you ignore everything else you may as ignore everything that Christ did or said. Which is the height of foolishness in my book.

    "To live in self sacrificial obedience is to live a resurrected life."
    Ah...no. No it is not. It is to live a Christian life of sanctification. The resurrection does not come until Christ returns.

    Romans 6:22 - But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life.

    1 Corinthians 1:30
    - And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption,

    2 Thessalonians 2:13 - But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

    1 Peter 1:2 - according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.


    Romans 8:23 - And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

    1 Corinthians 15:20–23 - But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.


    Didn't you just say that we shouldn't worry about or focus on Christ's personality? Why then do we look to his 'perfect obedience'? Isn't that a personality trait rather than his name meaning? You see how I'm having trouble following your logic loops?

    Look...I don't object at all to the idea that it's Christ IN us, that allows us to live a life that rejects sin. Without God granting us new life and living within us we would still be dead and slaves to sin.
    What I do object to is your apparent willingness to label it a 'salvation by works', when that idea, spoken of in the bible often, points to a whole other thing.

    Excuse me? You can't separate the two? Let's just take a step back and consider the two, shall we? One is what Christ did on the cross, the other, spoken of often in scripture, is man attempting to earn the same thing by his own efforts. One was done by God, the other by man. One was offered by grace, the other is strived for out of a sense of pride and boastfulness. One can grant salvation, the other cannot.

    Romans 3:20 - For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight,
    Romans 3:27 - Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but By the law of faith.
    Romans 3:28 - For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
    Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
    Romans 11:6 - But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
    Galatians 2:16 - yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
    Galatians 3:2 - Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?



    I could go on. The 'works' of the law, or of the flesh, are NOT the same as what Christ did on the cross for us. In fact, the works we do as Christians, while good, Godly things, are still NOT the same as what Christ did on the cross....they will still not buy us salvation. That is because we are not God, we are not perfect and we did not rise from the dead, conquering sin and death.
    So....I'd say there's a big difference between the two and there's no way you can pull them together biblically. The two verses you quote above, is speaking about our ability to do good and reject sin in this life. Without Christ it is not possible. With Christ anything is possible. But, I can guarantee you, the contexts of those verses do NOT spell out 'salvation of works' and 'Christ on the cross' are the same.

    See, again you throw a 360. Haven't you been, all this time, yelling about obedience?
    Doesn't the bible call for our obedience? Doesn't Jesus, while abolishing the food and cleanliness laws, go on to affirm that holiness and obedience to God is a GOOD thing?
    But, nah....lets slag the Christians about it tell them their terrible people.
    I hate to break it to you, but it's not going to shock them or hurt them. They're Christians. In order to come to Christ they had to put their hands up, fall to their knees and weep that they were broken and in need of a Saviour.

    Ah. Right. And this is where I get off this merry-go-round. Not that I have a problem in general with your folk, I have a few here I respect. But knowing where you rather staunchly sit and will not change your mind, I suddenly find I have better ways to spend my time than arguing with someone who believes me to be worshiping on a pagan day, eating pig and celebrating divorce while I wallow in debt. Boy how; no wonder you and I read scripture differently. o_O
     
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  6. shnarkle

    shnarkle Well-Known Member

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    When a post begins this way, it's time to cut and run. Even scrolling past what looked like a post that must have taken quite a while to compose is a chore. Thank God I'll never have to do that again. Welcome to "ignore"d troll.
     
  7. Helen

    Helen Well-Known Member

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    And this kind of posting is what bring the tone of this Site right down.

    Why does ignorance have to prove itself by being rude to another member when they don't like what they say or what they believe.

    @Naomi25 On his behalf I apologize for him ...someone needs to.

    I guess his muver jist dint bring him up proper. ♥︎
     
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  8. shnarkle

    shnarkle Well-Known Member

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    I apologize. However, you're doing the same thing with your post. They're trolling. I pointed it out, and let them know that I'm putting them on "ignore" because of it. I think a troll should know why they're being ignored. What you're doing in your post is also trolling. So I'm going to place you into the "ignore" d black hole as well. You can rest assured that I will never post anything like that to you or her ever again. That will be a definite improvement to this site. See ya never.
     
  9. Helen

    Helen Well-Known Member

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    Thats okay...I will live without you reading my posts !! Ha!

    Plus, in your post here, sadly you just once again confirmed what I said in the previous post.
    Naomi's post was not a trolling post ( or maybe you are confused about what an internet troll is ) she was on point.
    Now, you rudeness here and character attack on her was indeed the actions of a troll.

    Why do you have to be rude to people that disagree with you...is it insecurity or something ....
     
  10. Nondenom40

    Nondenom40 Active Member

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    CARM forums are back up, revamped and ready to go. Just fyi. Come one come all.
     
  11. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you Helen. I think, perhaps also, his 'muver' mustn't have taught him the difference between sarcasm and trolling. He seems to see a troll under every bridge and every disagreement. :p
     
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  12. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    My God is certainly all about second chances 70 x 70, in fact.
     
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  13. mjrhealth

    mjrhealth Well-Known Member

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    The part where is says, you dont have to do anything so you have nothing to boast about, oh, and the bit where He must wonder as to where He just made it to easy.. nah cant be that simple, just believe. come on. I must have to do something.... I would have thought the believe part is hard enough..
     
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  14. mjrhealth

    mjrhealth Well-Known Member

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    No, Jesus, God and the Holy spirit, you can sit heer and quote scripture all you like and forever be in complete disagreement with them, these forums and all christian forums churches and religions are a testament to that.

    1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
    1Jn 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
    1Jn 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
     
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  15. shnarkle

    shnarkle Well-Known Member

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    What does CARM mean?
     
  16. Ezra

    Ezra Well-Known Member

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    no it is you who disagrees . i showed you the difference using scripture.... your taking away from Blood that cleanses us from ALL sins 1` john 1:7 walking in the light .you follow carnal doctrine
     
  17. CovenantPromise

    CovenantPromise Active Member

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    The problem :
    1. Can people die with imperfections unawares?
    1 Corinthians 3:12-15 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
    12 Some will use gold, silver or precious stones in building on this foundation; while others will use wood, grass or straw. 13 But each one’s work will be shown for what it is; the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire — the fire will test the quality of each one’s work. 14 If the work someone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward; 15 if it is burned up, he will have to bear the loss: he will still escape with his life, but it will be like escaping through a fire.

    Please , if you will, explain how you understand this? I know the Hebrew perspective but I would like to understand a different perspective.
    Thanks.
     
  18. Ezra

    Ezra Well-Known Member

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    its another forum backed by calvinist
     
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  19. Nondenom40

    Nondenom40 Active Member

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    With more rules, specific categories, less wild west....
     
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  20. Nondenom40

    Nondenom40 Active Member

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