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Featured There Is No Purgatory. It Is Not In God's Character To Give 2nd Chances After We Leave Our Flesh

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by jshiii, Dec 21, 2019.

  1. Philip James

    Philip James Well-Known Member

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    Are you letting Him purify you?

    The more we alllow Him to purify us now, the less loss we shall suffer at the final purification.

    Peace!
     
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  2. Ezra

    Ezra Well-Known Member

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    there is no finial purification

    1 Peter 1:21-23 King James Version (KJV)
    21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

    22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

    23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2019
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  3. Philip James

    Philip James Well-Known Member

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    How do you reconcile these two contradictory statements?

    Peace!
     
  4. Helen

    Helen Well-Known Member

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    I wish I had a $ over my 20 years of Forum life..for every time I see a person write the above. LOL

    What it always means is...'according to how I interpret the bible.'

    ...and...everyone has their own interpretation...and everyone believe that "they are in the right" and the other person is wrong.

    That quote of yours is worthless in any discussion.
    And so is the game so often played like a cheap party game-
    " I can out-scripture you.."
     
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  5. Ezra

    Ezra Well-Known Member

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    its only contradictory to you. one is a judgment of works by fire ..the other is the refiners fire we have to allow the dross to be took out by the holyspirit
     
  6. Ezra

    Ezra Well-Known Member

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    ok then with your 20 years on the forum what is our authority >? readers digest ? national geographic ?
     
  7. Helen

    Helen Well-Known Member

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    Our God IS a consuming Fire.
    "Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit." .....said a wise person...
     
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  8. Philip James

    Philip James Well-Known Member

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    I don't understand. How is 'a judgement of works by fire', not a purification?
     
  9. historyb

    historyb Well-Known Member

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    This makes me think of the old westerns with two cowboys.

    Cowboy 1 - Draw your Bible

    Cowboy 2 - I can out scripture you hombre!

    :)
     
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  10. Nondenom40

    Nondenom40 Active Member

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    Partially true. When scripture is our highest/final authority we simply mean that we test all things by it; 1 Thess 5. Also when interpreting the bible we should do it in a way where we don't contradict any other part of the bible. Catholics, mormons, jw's have doctrines that contradict scripture all over the place, but they all also have other things equal to the bible

    Its not worthless. The bible is God breathed. Having that as your highest standard is never worthless. Also i'm not out to 'out scripture' anyone. I want to look at things in context. When there is a difference in major doctrine then someone is right and someone is wrong. Its not my job to convince anyone. Thats the Holy Spirits job. Our job is to share the gospel and defend the faith.
     
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  11. Helen

    Helen Well-Known Member

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    Agree, it's just sad that each of our personal interpretation of said bible isn't also 'God breathed'.

    Glad your intent is not to "out-scriptum " anyone ...it seems to be the pastime of many. :)
     
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  12. Ezra

    Ezra Well-Known Member

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    well then do a study on the bema seat judgement of works
    Verse 11
    For other foundation - It is “implied” by the course of the argument here, that This was the foundation which had been laid at Corinth, and on which the church there had been reared. And it is affirmed that no other foundation can be laid. A foundation is that upon which a building is raised; the foundation of a church is the doctrine on which it is established; that is, the doctrines which its members hold - those truths which lie at the basis of their hopes, and by embracing which they have been converted to God.
    Albert Barnes'
    Can no man lay - That is, there is no other true foundation.

    Which is Jesus Christ - Christ is often called the foundation; the stone; the cornerstone upon which the church is reared; Isaiah 28:16; Matthew 21:42; Acts 4:11; Ephesians 2:20; 2 Timothy 2:19; 1 Peter 2:6. The meaning is, that no true church can be reared which does not embrace and hold the true doctrines respecting him - those which pertain to his incarnation, his divine nature, his instructions, his example, his atonement, his resurrection, and ascension. The reason why no true church can be established without embracing the truth as it is in Christ is, that it is by him only that people can be saved; and where This doctrine is missing, all is missing that enters into the essential idea of a church. The fundamental doctrines of the Christian religion must be embraced, or a church cannot exist and where those doctrines are denied no association of people can be recognized as a church of God. Nor can the foundation be modified or shaped so as to suit the wishes of people. It must be laid as it is in the Scriptures; and the superstructure must be raised upon that alone.



    Verse 12
    Now if any man - If any teacher in the doctrines which he inculcates; or any private Christian in the hopes which he cherishes. The main discussion doubtless, has respect to the teachers of religion. Paul carries forward the metaphor in this and the following verses with respect to the building. He supposes that the foundation is laid; that it is a true foundation; that the essential doctrines in regard to the Messiah are the real basis on which the edifice is reared. But, he says, that even admitting that, it is a subject of vast importance to attend to the kind of structure which shall be reared on that; whether it shall be truly beautiful, and valuable in itself, and such as shall abide the trial of the last great Day; or whether it be mean, worthless, erroneous, and such as shall at last be destroyed. There has been some difference of opinion in regard to the interpretation of this passage, arising from the question whether the apostle designed to represent one or two buildings.

    The former has been the more common interpretation, and the sense according to that is, “the true foundation is laid; but on that it is improper to place vile and worthless materials. It would be absurd to work them in with those which are valuable; it would be absurd to work in, in rearing a building, wood, and hay, and stubble, with gold, and silver, and precious stones; there would be a lack of concinnity and beauty in this. So in the spiritual temple. There is an impropriety, an unfitness, in rearing the spiritual temple, to interweave truth with error; sound doctrine with false.” See Calvin and Macknight. Grotius renders it, “Paul feigns to himself an edifice, partly regal, and partly rustic. He presents the image of a house whose walls are of marble, whose columns are made partly of gold and partly of silver, whose beams are of wood, and whose roof thatched with straw.” Others, among whom are Wetstein, Doddridge, Rosenmuller, suppose that he refers to two buildings that might be reared on this foundation - either one that should be magnificent and splendid; or one that should be a rustic cottage, or mean hovel, thatched with straw, and made of planks of wood.

    Doddridge paraphrases the passage, “‹If any man builds,‘ I say, ‹upon this foundation,‘ let him look to the materials and the nature of his work; whether he raise a stately and magnificent temple upon it, adorned as it were like the house of God at Jerusalem, with gold and silver, and large, beautiful, and costly stones; or a mean hovel, consisting of nothing better than planks of wood roughly put together, and thatched with hay and stubble. That is, let him look to it, whether he teach the substantial, vital truths of Christianity, and which it was intended to support and illustrate; or set himself to propagate vain subtilties and conceits on the one hand, or legal rites and Jewish traditions on the other; which although they do not entirely destroy the foundation, disgrace it, as a mean edifice would do a grand and extensive foundation laid with great pomp and solemnity.” This probably expresses the correct sense of the passage. The foundation may be well laid; yet on this foundation an edifice may be reared that shall be truly magnificent, or one that shall be mean and worthless. So the true foundation of a church may be laid, or of individual conversion to God, in the true doctrine respecting Christ. That church or that individual may be built up and adorned with all the graces which truth is suited to produce; or there may be false principles and teachings superadded; doctrines that shall delude and lead astray; or views and feelings cultivated as piety, and believed to be piety, which may be no part of true religion, but which are mere delusion and fanaticism.

    Gold, silver - On the meaning of these words it is not necessary to dwell; or to lay too much stress. Gold is the emblem of that which is valuable and precious, and may be the emblem of that truth and holiness which shall bear the trial of the great Day. In relation to the figure which the apostle here uses, it may refer to the fact that columns or beams in an edifice might be gilded; or perhaps, as in the temple, that they might be solid gold, so as to bear the action of intense heat; or so that fire would not destroy them - So the precious doctrines of truth, and all the feelings, views, opinions, habits, practices, which truth produces in an individual or a church, will bear the trial of the last great Day.

    Precious stones - By the stones here referred to, are not meant “gems” which are esteemed of so much value for ornaments, but beautiful and valuable marbles. The word “precious” here τιμίους timiousmeans those which are obtained at a “price,” which are costly and valuable; and is particularly applicable, therefore, to the costly marbles which were used in building. The figurative sense here does not differ materially from that conveyed by the silver and gold. By this edifice thus reared on the true foundation, we are to understand:

    (1)The true doctrines which should be employed to build up a congregation - doctrines which would bear the test of the trial of the last Day; and,

    (2)Such views in regard to piety, and to duty; such feelings and principles of action, as should be approved, and seen to be genuine piety in the Day of Judgment.

    Wood - That might be easily burned. An edifice reared of wood instead of marble, or slight buildings, such as were often put for up for temporary purposes in the East - as cottages, places for watching their vineyards, etc.; see my note at Isaiah 1:8.

    Hay, stubble - Used for thatching the building, or for a roof. Perhaps, also, grass was sometimes employed in some way to make the walls of the building. Such an edifice would burn readily; would be constantly exposed to take fire. By this is meant:

    (1)Errors and false doctrines, such as will not be found to be true on the Day of Judgment, and as will then be swept away;

    (2)Such practices and mistaken views of piety, as shall grow out of false doctrines and errors - The foundation may be firm.

    Those who are referred to may be building on the Lord Jesus, and may be true Christians. Yet there is much error among those who are not Christians. There are many things mistaken for piety which will yet be seen robe false. There is much enthusiasm, wildfire, fanaticism, bigotry; much affected humility; much that is supposed to be orthodoxy; much regard to forms and ceremonies; to “days, and months, and times, and years” Galatians 4:10; much over-heated zeal, and much precision, and solemn sanctimoniousness; much regard for external ordinances where the heart is missing, that shall be found to be false, and that shall be swept away on the Day of Judgment.
     
  13. Ezra

    Ezra Well-Known Member

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    continued Albert Barnes'
    Verse 13
    Every man‘s work shall be made manifest - What every man has built on this foundation shall be seen. Whether he has held truth or error; whether he has had correct views of piety or false; whether what he has done has been what he should have done or not.

    For the day - The Day of Judgment. The great Day which shall reveal the secrets of all hearts, and the truth in regard to what every man has done. The event will show what edifices on the true foundation are firmly, and what are weakly built. Perhaps the word “day” here may mean time in general, as we say, “time will show” - and as the Latin adage says, dies docebit; but it is more natural to refer it to the Day of Judgment.

    Because it shall be revealed by fire - The work, the edifice which shall be built on the true foundation shall be made known amidst the fire of the great Day. The “fire” which is here referred to, is doubtless that which shall attend the consummation of all things - the close of the world. That the world shall be destroyed by fire, and that the solemnities of the Judgment shall be ushered in by a universal conflagration, is fully and frequently revealed. See Isaiah 66:15; 2 Thessalonians 1:8; 2 Peter 3:7, 2 Peter 3:10-11. The burning fires of that Day, Paul says, shall reveal the character of every man‘s work, as fire sheds light on all around, and discloses the true nature of things. It may be observed, however, that many critics suppose this to refer to the fire of persecution, etc. Macknight. Whitby supposes that the apostle refers to the approaching destruction of Jerusalem. Others, as Grotius, Rosenmuller, etc. suppose that the reference is to “time” in general; it shall be declared ere long; it shall be seen whether those things which are built on the true foundation, are true by the test of time, etc. But the most natural interpretation is that which refers it to the Day of Judgment.

    And the fire shall try every man‘s work - It is the property of fire to test the qualities of objects. Thus, gold and silver, so far from being destroyed by fire, are purified from dross. Wood, hay, stubble, are consumed. The power of fire to try or test the nature of metals, or other objects, is often referred to in the Scripture. Compare Isaiah 4:4; Isaiah 24:15; Malachi 3:2; 1 Peter 1:7. It is not to be supposed here that the material fire of the last Day shall have any tendency to purify the soul, or to remove that which is unsound; but that the investigations and trials of the Judgment shall remove all that is evil, as fire acts with reference to gold and silver. As they are not burned but purified; as they pass unhurt through the intense heat of the furnace, so shall all that is genuine pass through the trials of the last great Day, of which trials the burning world shall be the antecedent and the emblem. That great Day shall show what is genuine and what is not.
    Verse 14
    If any man‘s work abide … - If it shall appear that he hast taught the true doctrines of Christianity, and inculcated right practices and views of piety, and himself cherished right feelings: if the trial of the great Day, when the real qualities of all objects shall be known, shall show this.

    He shall receive a reward - According to the nature of his work. See the note on 1 Corinthians 3:8. This refers, I suppose, to the proper rewards on the Day of Judgment, and not to the honors and the recompense which he may receive in this world. If all that he has taught and done shall be proved to have been genuine and pure, then his reward shall be in proportion.



    Verse 15
    If any man‘s work shall be burned - If it shall not be found to hear the test of the investigation of that Day - as a cottage of wood, hay, and stubble would not bear the application of fire. If his doctrines have not been true; if he has had mistaken views of piety; if he has nourished feelings which he thought were those of religion; and inculcated practices which, however well meant, are not such as the gospel produces; if he has fallen into error of opinion, feeling, practice, however conscientious, yet he shall suffer loss.

    He shall suffer loss - :

    (1) He shall not be elevated to as high a rank and to as high happiness as he otherwise would. That which he supposed would be regarded as acceptable by the Judge, and rewarded accordingly, shall be stripped away, and shown to be unfounded and false; and in consequence, he shall not obtain those elevated rewards which he anticipated. This, compared with what he expected, may be regarded as a loss.

    (2) he shall be injuriously affected by this forever. It shall be a detriment to him to all eternity. The effects shall be felt in all his residence in heaven - not producing misery but attending him with the consciousness that he might have been raised to superior bliss in the eternal abode - The phrase here literally means, “he shall be mulcted.” The word is a legal term, and means that he shall be fined, that is, he shall suffer detriment.

    But he himself shall be saved - The apostle all along has supposed that the true foundation was laid 1 Corinthians 3:11, and if that is laid, and the edifice is reared upon that, the person who does it shall be safe. There may be much error, and many false views of religion, and much imperfection, still the man that is building on the true foundation shall be safe. His errors and imperfections shall be removed, and he may occupy a lower place in heaven, but he shall be safe.

    Yet so as by fire - ὡς διὰ πυρός hōs dia purosThis passage has greatly perplexed commentators; but probably without any good reason. The apostle does not say that Christians will be doomed to the fires of purgatory; nor that they will pass through fire; nor that they will be exposed to pains and punishment at all; but he “simply carries out the figure” which he commenced, and says that they will be saved, as if the action of fire had been felt on the edifice on which he is speaking. That is, as fire would consume the wood, hay, and stubble, so on the great Day everything that is erroneous and imperfect in Christiana shall be removed, and that which is true and genuine shall be preserved as if it had passed through fire. Their whole character and opinions shall be investigated; and that which is good shall be approved; and that which is false and erroneous be removed.

    The idea is not that of a man whose house is burnt over his head and who escapes through the flames, nor that of a man who is subjected to the pains and fires of purgatory; but that of a man who had been spending his time and strength to little purpose; who had built, indeed, on the true foundation, but who had reared so much on it which was unsound, and erroneous, and false, that he himself would be saved with great difficulty, and with the loss of much of that reward which he had expected, as if the fire had passed over him and his works. The simple idea, therefore, is, that that which is genuine and valuable in his doctrines and works, shall be rewarded, and the man shall be saved; that which is not sound and genuine, shall be removed, and he shall suffer loss. Some of the fathers, indeed, admitted that this passage taught that all people would be subjected to the action of fire in the great conflagration with which the world shall close; that the wicked shall be consumed; and that the righteous are to suffer, some more and some less, according to their character. On passages like this, the Roman Catholic doctrine of purgatory is based. But we may observe:

    (1) That this passage does not necessarily or naturally give any such idea. The interpretation stated above is the natural interpretation, and one which the passage will not only bear, but which it demands.

    (2) If this passage would give any countenance to the absurd and unscriptural idea that the souls of the righteous at the Day of Judgment are to be re-united to their bodies, in order to be subjected to the action of intense heat, to be brought from the abodes of bliss and compelled to undergo the burning fires of the last conflagration, still it would give no countenance to the still more absurd and unscriptural opinion that those fires have been and are still burning; that all souls are to be subjected to them; and that they can be removed only by masses offered for the dead, and by the prayers of the living. The idea of danger and peril is, indeed, in this text; but the idea of personal salvation is retained and conveyed.







     
  14. Ezra

    Ezra Well-Known Member

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    maybe but when a person says the Bible is not the only authority they are in error . the are certain Bible doctrines i will not change on .. the bema seat if those who are opposed to it. want to make it into purgatory which is a myth .then i will stand up to it . if one opposes then show why you oppose it using scripture in context . they call it apologetics defense
     
  15. Philip James

    Philip James Well-Known Member

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    Your study did not clear up the question...

    Again, you show that there is indeed a final purification...
    Holding to such while vehemently insisting that catholics are wrong to assert such is disingenuous.

    Peace!
     
  16. Ezra

    Ezra Well-Known Member

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    we are purified while living ..not so dumb out of this world doctrine purgatory..there is no purification process after death .. follow the blind catholic teaching all you want
     
  17. Philip James

    Philip James Well-Known Member

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    And yet the study you posted clearly disagrees with you...

    Peace!
     
  18. Jane_Doe22

    Jane_Doe22 Well-Known Member

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    God & His Spirit >> all other things.
     
  19. Nondenom40

    Nondenom40 Active Member

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    What other things?
     
  20. Jane_Doe22

    Jane_Doe22 Well-Known Member

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    ALL other things. He is above ALL.
     
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