There is no Rapture!

[covenantee]

So when and what was the "covenant with many"?

Have you heard of Calvary?

Matthew 26:28
for this is My blood of the covenant, which is being poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.

1 Corinthians 11:25
In the same way He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”

Hebrews 8:6
But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, to the extent that He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.

Hebrews 8:13
When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is about to disappear.

 

[amigo de christo]

Onward in the trenches . Contend for the true faith till the last breath .

 

[Jack]

"There is no Rapture!"

1 Thessalonians 4
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

 

[No Pre-TB]

"There is no Rapture!"

1 Thessalonians 4
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

There is a harpazo, as you rightly show.

The problem is what people say regarding it.
1. The harpazo is Pre-TB.
2. The harpazo is simultaneous with the resurrection of the dead
3. The harpazo is our blessed hope

These things are all wrong and they are consistently preached in churches and found on Pre-Tb websites.

Fact #1. The harpazo cannot precede the resurrection of the dead

Fact #2. Christ appearing is our blessed hope. Not the harpazo of the living.

Fact #3. The Bible makes the resurrection of the dead greater and more spoken of than the harpazo. Why do Pre-TBs make the rapture more prevalent then the resurrection and put it on a pedestal?

Fact #4. The resurrection and harpazo will not happen till after the man of sin is revealed. 2 Thess 2:1-4. That puts the entirety of the church during the tribulation.

Fact #5. 726 harpázō – properly, seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively – like someone seizing bounty (spoil, a prize); to take by an open display of force (i.e. not covertly or secretly). The harpazo is not a secret rapture.

Fact #6. The word used for "remain", as in those who are alive and remain is:
From peri and leipo; to leave all around, i.e. (passively) survive -- remain.

Pre-Tb would have you believe we are raptured before the tribulation. If that were the case, what are you "alive and survived from" that everyone else didn't survive?

 

[Zao is life]

Question: why is there no mention of the Churches after Chapter 3 in the Book of Revelation, a book specifically addressed to the seven Churches? It would be odd not to mention them given what they are to endure if there is no Rapture as you claim. The Saints are mentioned, but not the Churches.​

The churches are definitely mentioned after Revelation chapter 3, and the churches are being spoken to throughout the rest of the Revelation. Jesus did not give His Revelation and speak to anyone else:

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to Him to declare to His servants things which must shortly come to pass. And He signified it by sending His angel to His servant John -- Revelation 1:1.

The rest of the message after chapter 3 - the unveiling of the scroll - is as much for the seven churches (i.e all the churches) as the first three chapters. If it isn't, then why did you bother to read it?

Jesus is talking to the churches in Revelation 16:15.

"I counsel you to buy from Me gold tried in the fire, so that you may be rich; and white clothing, so that you may be clothed, and so that the shame of your nakedness does not appear. And anoint your eyes with eye salve, so that you may see." -- Revelation 3:18 - the seventh of the seven messages to the seven churches.

Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is the one who watches and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame -- Revelation 16:15 - Jesus is not talking to unbelievers.

Jesus is telling us about what is to come upon the church and New Jerusalem in Revelation 11:1-2. (Babylon the Great, and the city spiritually called Sodom and Egypt, and the cities of the nations that fell when the 7th bowl was poured out are not called the holy city anywhere in the Revelation, but New Jerusalem is called the holy city 3 other times aside from Revelation 11:2).
​

And the temple being referred to in Revelation 11:1 is the churches. The Greek word used is naos, which, since the death and resurrection of Christ, only refers to the New Testament Temple (the churches) and the Temple in heaven whenever it's used in the New Testament after the verses talking about the tearing of the veil in the Old Testament temple, which occurred when Jesus died on the cross.

And the saints mentioned in Revelation 13:7 whom the beast will make war against and overcome, are the churches.

The churches are certainly mentioned again after chapter 3 and the entire message is for the churches.

Your question again?​

 

[07-07-07]

And the saints mentioned in Revelation 13:7 whom the beast will make war against and overcome, are the churches.​

When addressing the Churches, Jesus calls them Churches. But when addressing the Saints in subsequent chapters, He does not refer to them as Churches, but Saints.

The churches are certainly mentioned again after chapter 3 and the entire message is for the churches.​

The Churches are not mentioned, but rather the Saints.

Your question again?​

The original question still stands.

 

[07-07-07]

Have you heard of Calvary?

Matthew 26:28
for this is My blood of the covenant, which is being poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.

1 Corinthians 11:25
In the same way He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”

Hebrews 8:6
But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, to the extent that He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.

Hebrews 8:13
When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is about to disappear.

While it is a covenant, it is not the "covenant with many" spoken of by Daniel the prophet, as it has nothing to do with Israel's 70th week of punishment for their disobedience.

Daniel 9
[24] Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

 

[covenantee]

While it is a covenant, it is not the "covenant with many" spoken of by Daniel the prophet, as it has nothing to do with Israel's 70th week of punishment for their disobedience.

Daniel 9
[24] Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Who do you think Daniel's "covenant with many" (Daniel 9:27) refers to?

 

[No Pre-TB]

The two witnesses are not two of the seven Churches.

Are you sure?
They are called 2 lamp stands in Rev 11:4
A lamp stand is a church per Rev 1:20

Therefore, they are 2 church types.

 

[No Pre-TB]

as it has nothing to do with Israel's 70th week of punishment for their disobedience.

There is no 70th week punishment. How many times must the Jews be punished?

Didn’t Christ die after the 69th week in the middle of the week? That would be the 70th week. Facts!

 

[strepho]

There is a misguided group (Dispensationalists) that claims that Christians will be raptured from the earth before the reign of the Antichrist (Tribulation). This group is truly devilish.

This doctrine of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture was invented by a wicked man named John Darby who was a dispensationalist in the 19th century. Before Darby, there was no belief in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture within Christianity.

The Bible clearly states that Christians must go through the Tribulation, for Revelation 20:4 describes how Christians will be beheaded for their faith during the Tribulation. If there really was a Rapture before the Tribulation, then logically there would be no Christians in the Tribulation, but since there will be Christians in the Tribulation, that means there will be no Rapture before the Tribulation. Revelation 13:7 also states that Christians will be given into the hand of the Antichrist, which means that the Antichrist will kill Christians.

The Pre-Tribulation Rapture is a very evil and dangerous false doctrine. It is evil and dangerous because when the Antichrist appears and begins his kingdom, all these people who have been deceived by the Zionist dispensationalists will think that the Antichrist is not the Antichrist because the supposed rapture has not happened. This false teaching will be to the advantage of the Antichrist.

Jesus will come back only once, and that will be after the tribulation, then he will gather all Christians (Matthew 24:29-31).

Thank you brother, for telling the Truth.

 

[Jack]

Matthew 24
44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

 

[07-07-07]

Who do you think Daniel's "covenant with many" (Daniel 9:27) refers to?

It's coming soon. The antichrist will confirm the covenant with many for one week (seven years). I believe the Abraham Accords are laying the groundwork for the "covenant with many". Once the AC confirms, whether the Abraham Accords or some other covenant between Israel and the many, the 70th week begins. Stay tuned. It's happening before our eyes.

 

[07-07-07]

Are you sure?
They are called 2 lamp stands in Rev 11:4
A lamp stand is a church per Rev 1:20

Therefore, they are 2 church types.

They are 2 prophets, not 2 Churches.

Revelation 11
[10] And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
[11] And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
[12] And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
[13] And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

 

[07-07-07]

There is no 70th week punishment. How many times must the Jews be punished?

Didn’t Christ die after the 69th week in the middle of the week? That would be the 70th week. Facts!

The Scriptures declare that the 70 weeks are determined because of Israel's sin.

 

[covenantee]

It's coming soon. The antichrist will confirm the covenant with many for one week (seven years). I believe the Abraham Accords are laying the groundwork for the "covenant with many". Once the AC confirms, whether the Abraham Accords or some other covenant between Israel and the many, the 70th week begins. Stay tuned. It's happening before our eyes.

The word "antichrist" does not exist in OT Hebrew or Aramaic.
A nonexistent antichrist cannot confirm anything.
In addition, "antichrist" is invalidated grammatically.
The grammatical antecedent/referent of "he" in Daniel 9:27 is "prince" in Daniel 9:26.
The grammatical antecedent/referent of "prince" in Daniel 9:26 is "Prince" in Daniel 9:25, i.e. Messiah the Prince.
Thus, "he" is Messiah the Prince, i.e. Christ, consistent with Matthew 26:28.
In addition, no recognized defender of the true faith up to the 19th century believed that Christ was antichrist.

So what you believe is untenable Scripturally, semantically, grammatically, historically, and logically.

 

[ewq1938]

They are 2 prophets, not 2 Churches.

The two witnesses are both two prophets AND two churches:

Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Olive trees are people, candlesticks are churches.

 

[07-07-07]

The word "antichrist" does not exist in OT Hebrew or Aramaic.
A nonexistent antichrist cannot confirm anything.
In addition, "antichrist" is invalidated grammatically.
The grammatical antecedent/referent of "he" in Daniel 9:27 is "prince" in Daniel 9:26.
The grammatical antecedent/referent of "prince" in Daniel 9:26 is "Prince" in Daniel 9:25, i.e. Messiah the Prince.
Thus, "he" is Messiah the Prince, i.e. Christ, consistent with Matthew 26:28.
In addition, no recognized defender of the true faith up to the 19th century believed that Christ was antichrist.

So what you believe is untenable Scripturally, semantically, grammatically, historically, and logically.

Daniel refers to the man of sin, aka antichrist or the beast. He is the prince of the covenant, a vile person who uses flattery to gain power; and that's exactly how politicians gain power nowadays.

Daniel 11
20Then shall stand up in his estate a raiser of taxes in the glory of the kingdom: but within few days he shall be destroyed, neither in anger, nor in battle.
21And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
22And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.

 

[07-07-07]

The two witnesses are both two prophets AND two churches:

Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Olive trees are people, candlesticks are churches.

That's a misinterpretation. There are only 2 prophets.

 

[covenantee]

Daniel refers to the man of sin, aka antichrist or the beast. He is the prince of the covenant, a vile person who uses flattery to gain power; and that's exactly how politicians gain power nowadays.

Daniel 11
20Then shall stand up in his estate a raiser of taxes in the glory of the kingdom: but within few days he shall be destroyed, neither in anger, nor in battle.
21And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
22And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.

Strictly dispensational "interpretation by imagination".

Daniel 11 was fulfilled long ago in the Seleucid empire. It is entirely unrelated to Daniel 9.

The vile person was Antiochus Epiphanes IV. He knew how to use flattery way back then.

We're discussing Daniel 9:24-27. Try to stay on topic.

And stop trying to contort Christ into antichrist.