In what body are the saints in heaven with the Lord? None will be immortal & incorruptible before an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds and time shall be no longer. They cannot be in heaven clothed in mortal flesh and blood, because flesh and blood shall not inherit the Kingdom of God. So how are the saints in heaven with the Lord for 1000 years of time? Is not time given for life on this earth? Is time even recorded for those in heaven?
They will reign with Him a thousand years and making an unknown Greek out of the English New Testament
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In what body are the saints in heaven with the Lord? None will be immortal & incorruptible before an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds and time shall be no longer. They cannot be in heaven clothed in mortal flesh and blood, because flesh and blood shall not inherit the Kingdom of God. So how are the saints in heaven with the Lord for 1000 years of time? Is not time given for life on this earth? Is time even recorded for those in heaven?
He is likely SDA, and if so, SDAs are Premils who think that saints who put on bodily immortality at the last trump when Christ returns, that they spend the thousand years in heaven not earth. Though I disagree with this, this is not the same as what happens in this age after one dies but before they bodily rise. Their soul leaves their body and goes to heaven until the time of the bodily resurrection, is the view of a good majority of Christians. He is meaning after saved ones can never bodily die again, that after they have put on bodily immortality at the 2nd coming, they then spend the millennium in heaven in a bodily state.
It makes zero sense to believe that immortal & incorruptible flesh will be in heaven because physical flesh is created for life on the earth not heaven. Heaven is a spiritual habitation, not the habitation for physical beings. And as Scripture shows us none shall be immortal and incorruptible until an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds and time shall be no longer. Without immortality none will physically ascend to the Kingdom of God in heaven.
Hobie
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In what body are we given at the Second Coming...
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Corinthians 15:51-53
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
Did you not notice when Paul says this pphysical change shall happen? He says we shall be changed at the last trumpet. According to Rev 10:5-7 when the last/seventh trumpet begins to sound "there should be time no longer" and "the mystery of God should be finished." How can you force more time after time is no longer and the mystery of God finished?
One more point, Paul does NOT say the saints shall be with the Lord in heaven for 1000 years. He writes they shall meet the Lord in the air. The air is NOT heaven. They won't be in the air with the Lord for 1000 years either, they will be there only long enough for the fire of God to come down from heaven to burn up all that is left alive on this earth, and the eternal/everlasting new heaven and new earth shall be after this first earth has passed away.
Hobie
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Christ Himself promised to take the saints to heaven and as you can see the resurrection was to be at the end..
John 11:24
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Which matches up..
1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Don't some Amils, if not all Amils, take the following to be involving the great white throne judgment?
Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Where should we assume the Son of man, and all the holy angels with Him, are coming to in verse 31? The moon? Mars? Pluto? How about the earth? Except per your literal interpretion pertaining to 2 Peter 3:10 you have Him having nowhere to return to until there is a NHNE first. Yet, the text here says He then sits upon the throne of His glory after having arrived. Where should we assume He sits upon the throne of His glory once He has arrived? The moon? Mars? Pluto? How about the earth? Except per your literal interpretion pertaining to 2 Peter 3:10 you have Him having nowhere to sit upon the earth until there is a NHNE first.
You might in turn argue this---from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them(Revelation 20:11), therefore, proving He does none of those things on the earth. Hmmm...IOW, now all of a sudden like, Amils are going to start taking things in the literal sense in Revelation 20, since there can't be an earth to set foot upon if the text is indicating that the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
What about the following then?
Luke 19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
Luke 19:15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
Where should we assume He returns to per verse 15? The moon? Mars? Pluto? How about the earth? Except per your literal interpretion pertaining to 2 Peter 3:10 you have Him having nowhere to return to until there is a NHNE first.
Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
Obviously, this is meaning after He has already returned first and then gave out rewards to His servants. And take note what this is involving. It is involving death, something that can no longer happen once the great white throne judgment has been fulfilled. Obviously then, nothing pertaining to this parable is meaning after the great white throne judgment has been fulfilled.
And don't some of you insist Christ does not set foot on the earth again until it is a NHNE following the GWTJ? Yet, here He is as plain as day, Christ setting foot on the earth again per this parable, and that the GWTJ hasn't even been fulfilled and in the past at this point if verse 27 is still involving death.
Maybe they will be. The gates of God. 12 gates into the city. The city comes down from heaven. No more death, crying or mourning for those inside the city, but those outside still experience it. The city is where the throne of God is, and there the sun does not need to give light because God and the Lamb are its light.
12 gates. Think.
See this post:
Understanding the The 1000 Year Millennium in Prophecy
Christ tells us what will happen, there will be two resurrestions, one for the saints and one when the wicked are brought up for damnation. John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation...
www.christianityboard.com
Yes the physical resurrection shall be in an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds. But all who die in Christ are raised a spiritual body for heaven when our natural physical body dies.
That's because the hour that NOW IS, is when all who hear His Word and believe on Him HATH everlasting life, not SHALL HATH but already HATH everlasting life. They have already passed from death to life.
John 5:24 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
You focus on the physical as though there is not everlasting/eternal spiritual life for all who are indwelt with the Holy Spirit from Christ.
Why don't you tell me where you believe the GWTJ shall take place, because according to John it won't be on the earth because he writes "the earth and heaven fled away" from the face of Him that sat on the throne. Wherever the GWTJ shall be it won't be on this earth.
Revelation 20:11-15 (KJV) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Christ first sends His angels to gather together believers, leaving only unbelievers on the earth to first experience the fire of God's wrath that shall come down upon the whole earth to burn up every living thing left on it. After that we look for a new heaven and new earth.
Revelation 21:1 (KJV) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 Peter 3:13 (KJV) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Timtofly
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There is not a single verse in Scripture that backs up the argument that a physical body cannot exist in Heaven. Jesus has a physical body, and being God always has had that physical body, even if born at a certain point in time. Abraham saw the scars of the Cross when Jesus appeared in His post resurrection physical body, and met him along with two angels.
Do you think the stars are physical lights or merely spiritual apparitions that create physical light? If nothing is physical in the firmament, should you not be consistent in your interpretation? That would mean there are literally no physical stars in the firmament either, only spiritual lights.
That famous verse that you all quote is telling us that Adam's dead corruptible flesh cannot enter heaven. It was not even allowed in the Garden of Eden which was on earth. Are you saying nothing was physical in the Garden of Eden as well? Were all those trees, plants, and animals merely spiritual virtual reality?
ewq1938
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No, he did not promise that. It's the same unscriptural teaching Pre-trib believes in, just happening at a different timeframe you think it happens but not once does any scripture state Christ takes anyone to Heaven.
Hobie
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Hobie
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No, take a look at the history of this false idea and how it got into the church... How the idea of Immortal Soul got into the Church
ewq1938
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Isn't that like Atheism that says nothing is alive after physical death?
The bible promotes that the soul and spirit are very much alive and alert after death of the body.
I don't need to know that which is false when I can read from the Word of God the life we receive when we believe in Him is everlasting, and though our body of flesh is destined to die, we shall NEVER die. Because we are NOT our body of flesh & bone, our body is that which houses who we are, and in Christ we are destined to eternal/never ending life. But clearly you would rather believe those who say believing in eternal life through Christ is not found in Scripture, but from Greek paganism. That's fine you have the right to believe whatever you want. But know this, those who deny the life we have through Christ shall never end, are denying the words of Christ, and that means you do not believe Christ when He tells us our life in Him is eternal/everlasting/and never-ending life through Him, and death of our body of flesh does not change this FACT.
You would do well to stop dwelling on the physical body destined to death and begin to dwell upon the eternal spiritual life we have through Christ that shall NEVER end! Death of our body of flesh does not take us from the spiritual eternal/everlasting life we have in Christ through His Spirit in us.
This is a problem for Amil not me if Amils insist the sheep and goats judgment is the great white throne judgment. I'm not the one insisting they are the same judgment. Clearly, as I have shown, the sheep and goats judgment takes place on the earth. Regardless where the great white throne judgment fits in time, whether soon after the 2nd coming or a thousand years later, both Matthew 25:31 and the Luke 19:12-27 parable undeniably have Christ setting foot on earth again, before not after, the great white throne judgment is already in the past.
Amils need to revise their position here and at least make it agree with both Matthew 25:31 and the Luke 19:12-27 parable, thus quit insisting that Jesus does not step foot on the earth again until after the great white throne judgment.
Luke 19:15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
Plain ole common sense says that you return to a place you were earlier.
Luke 19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
Everyone knows what this verse is referring to. It is referring to His ascension back into heaven. Which means He is on the earth first then He ascended back into heaven. And in verse 15---And it came to pass, that when he was returned--it is obviously meaning He returned to the earth when this is fulfilled during His 2nd coming in the end of this age.
Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
Plain ole common sense says that this is meaning before the great white throne judgment has been fulfilled and before it is in the past.
If one argues that the return in verse 15 is not a literal return to the earth since this is a parable, one then needs to argue in the same manner per verse 12, that since this is a parable, there is no literal ascension back into heaven involved. IOW, one can't cherry pick here by interpreting verse 12 in one manner and verse 15 in an entirely different manner since that is being dishonest.
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The Bible doesn't specifically tell us where the GWTJ shall take place David. For all we know it could be in outer darkness where there is said to be weeping and gnashing of teeth? You try harder than anyone I know to prove your doctrine of deception. We know only when the GWTJ shall be, and that is after this time symbolized a thousand years has expired and after Satan has his little season. Frankly, I don't care where it occurs, but I know when and that it most assuredly shall occur after the seventh trumpet begins to sound.
Neither Matthew nor Luke tell us Christ will reign on this earth! You must read your doctrine of deception into the passages. Christ ascended back to heaven, which is what the parable is telling us, after He resurrected from the dead. When He returns the second time, just as we read elsewhere, the enemies of Christ shall be destroyed.
It Christ has not already ascended to heaven as Scripture proves, where did He go when He was physically seen ascending up by His disciples when He departed from this earth? Christ already ascended up to heaven, and He won't be ascending up again, He will be seen coming down from heaven in the same manner He was seen departing this earth. The only one being dishonest in these discussions is the one trying to prove doctrines of deception!
The Judgment depicted by Jesus in Matthew 25:31-46 and the Judgment depicted in the vision given to John in Revelation 20:11-15 are one and the same, yes.
Right, Jesus returns, and executes the final Judgment.
Hm, interesting. Very rarely have I heard Jesus's parable of Luke 19 brought up as a depiction of the judgment. Yes, but that's not Jesus's point in telling the parable; it's much more an exhortation of what we should be doing during the time before Jesus's return. But yes, that is in some sense a depiction of the same event, the final Judgment. In order of occurrence:
* Regardless of the passage (Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 19:15b-26, Revelation 20), yes, the final Judgment takes place on earth, just after Jesus's return...
Christ's return is depicted various ways in Zechariah 14:4, Matthew 24:30-31, Mark 13:24-27, Luke 19:15a, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, Revelation 1:7, Revelation 6:12-17, Revelation 8:1, Revelation 11:15-19 , Revelation 19:11, Revelation 20:9
* ...and the second resurrection...
The second resurrection is depicted in John 5:28-29 and is properly placed in Revelation 20 just prior to the scene beginning in Revelation 20:11
* ...and prior to the full ushering in of the New Heaven and New Earth
Seen in Revelation 21:1-8.
Whatever one's view of the millennium, what some (maybe many) are missing is that, as I have pointed out several times before, God is not somehow "making all new things," but, rather, God is "making all things new" (Revelation 21:5).
Grace and peace to all.
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