Things that are never mentioned in religious churches

[H. Richard]

To the Law question, I believe it is the whole of the Law not just the 10 commandments they were unable to keep. The Gentiles were never under the Moasic covenant. It is the Abrahamic covenant through which all the nations will be blessed.

I disagree with your position on Peter. This is why I commented to begin with. Acts 15 is clear. Peter states:

And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith. - Acts 15:8-9

Peter's whole point is God gave the Holy Spirit to Gentiles who were never under the Law. It is by faith through the grace of the Lord Jesus that both Jew and Gentile are saved. It is God's witness through the giving of the Holy Spirit that testifies Gentiles are not held to keep the Law. The Holy Spirit was already given to this group and they did not ever come under the Law.

Part of Peter's speech at Pentecost was convicting the Jews of their part in crucifying the Christ. There was never any different gospel. One gospel message for both Jew and Gentile.

Paul is no innovator of the gospel message. It is a false teaching stating there was ospel for the Jew and Paul had a new and different message. Neither history nor Scripture supports such a false claim.

**
I disagree. There has been more covenants made to mankind than just one.

Paul said his gospel (covenant) was HIDDEN IN GOD. I fail to see that the 12 said any such thing. Do you believe that god can hide things from men. I do and it is supported by scripture.

Deut 29:29
29 "The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.
NKJV

Deut 29:29
29 "The Lord our God has secrets known to no one. We are not accountable for them, but we and our children are accountable forever for all that he has revealed to us, so that we may obey all the terms of these instructions.
Holy Bible, New Living Translation ®, copyright © 1996, 2004 by Tyndale Charitable Trust. Used by permission of Tyndale House Publishers. All rights reserved.

 

[justaname]

1. Only one covenant after the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is called the new covenant.

2. Paul never said it was hidden from the rest of the Apostles. Paul's gospel is the same as the rest. His statement still holds true.

3. Of course God can hide things from men.

 

[H. Richard]

1. Only one covenant after the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is called the new covenant.

2. Paul never said it was hidden from the rest of the Apostles. Paul's gospel is the same as the rest. His statement still holds true.

3. Of course God can hide things from men.

***
Yes he did! He said that his gospel was HIDDEN in God and revealed to him. He did not say it was revealed to any others. He also said his gospel was not taught to him by men (the 12/11).

1 Cor 2:7-8
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory,
8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
NKJV

Eph 3:8-10
8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;
NKJV

Col 1:26-27
26 the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints.
27 To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
NKJV

Your saying that the 11/12 knew this gospel is not supported by scriptures. -- Why did Paul need for Peter to tell the rest of the 11/12 that God was including the Gentiles if they already knew it?.

Why were the Jewish believers mad at Paul and not James in Acts 21:20

People ought to think when they read scripture.

 

[justaname]

I agree people ought to think when reading the Scriptures.

Take the 1 Corinthians 2:7-8 passage for example. It says but we speak the mysteries of God not that only I Paul speak. Then look to the Ephesians 3:8-10 passage where Paul is clearly speaking about his mission to the Gentiles, not that he had a different gospel. Then the key words, to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery. This mystery is the inclusion of the Gentiles in the New Covenant. This is not speaking about a new gospel given to Paul different from Peter's. Then look to the Colossians passage where it says the mystery has been revealed to His saints (plural) not just to Paul alone. In fact the mystery was revealed to Peter first! Paul continues by saying "To them" God willed to make known. Paul was appointed by the leaders of the Church to take the message to the Gentiles! Without question they knew of the inclusion of the Gentiles.

1 Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God,
2 which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy Scriptures,
3 concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh
4 and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord,
5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations,
6 including you who are called to belong to Jesus Christ, - Romans 1:1-6

Verse 2 explains the gospel was promised beforehand. Verse 5 explains the apostleship given in a plural first person (we) and also the audience of all the nations.

Paul is one among many to whom the mystery was revealed. Never did Paul say to me alone in any of these passages. This is your false inference given your wrong presupposition.

Then to your loud question. The topic was a discussion of the need for Gentiles to be circumcised, not that God was including them. Peter was one amongst the leadership describing the position they should not circumcise Gentiles.

Question two is explained that the new believers were "zealous for the law". The Christians had a situation where the new converts were steeped in the traditions of their Fathers. It is not that man is not allowed to follow the practices of the Law, just that faith in Christ is the means of salvation. It is when people start looking to their ability to keep the law over the propitiation of Christ for their salvation they get into great trouble because they are forsaking the grace of God for self righteousness. If you continue reading that section in Acts it states:

But as for the Gentiles who have believed, we have sent a letter with our judgment that they should abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality." - Acts 21:25

The following of the Law is apportioned to Jewish identity and nationalism at this period of time. As more Jewish fulfillment in Messiah was happening the leaders wanted to thwart criticism and claims that Paul was teaching Jews to go against their heritage. This is why Paul thought it necessary to get the men circumcised, to remove any stumbling block from before the Jews who were fresh believers still immature of their liberty in Christ.

This pet doctrine of yours has you blinded to obvious truths concerning the singularity of the gospel message. Paul was not an innovator, he was commissioned by God and the Church to carry the one and only gospel message of salvation to the Gentiles.

 

[tom55]

Here are three other scriptures never taught in religious churches.

Matt 10:5-7 (NKJ)
5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.
6 "But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 "And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'

Matt 15:23-24 (NKJ)
23 But He answered her not a word. And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, "Send her away, for she cries out after us."
24 But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Paul said: Rom 15:8 (NKJ)
8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

Note that in Matt 10:5-7 and Matt 15:23-24 Jesus said He did not come EXCEPT to the house of Israel. Jesus came to confirm/fulfill all that was written of Him in the O.T. His mission was to the Jews, not to the Gentiles. This is what Paul meant in Rom 15:8.

Can you please define a "religious" church as opposed to a non-religious church? I don't know what that means. I thought all (Christian) churches were religious.

 

[H. Richard]

Can you please define a "religious" church as opposed to a non-religious church? I don't know what that means. I thought all (Christian) churches were religious.

If you will remember it was the religious that persecuted Jesus and had Him murdered. It was the religious that stoned Stephen. It was the religious Jews that tried to get Paul's gentile converts to keep the Law of Moses.

It is the religious, today, that will not accept the idea of God's grace where God (Jesus) atoned for (paid for) all the sins of the world. By all it it is saying all past, present, and future sins have been atoned for by the shed blood of Jesus on the cross (the work of God) .and instead teach man's works in religion.

Under grace sins of the flesh have all been atoned for. The only thing that condemns a person in the age of grace is unbelief. To not believe God when He says your sins were taken care of on the cross.

 

[tom55]

If you will remember it was the religious that persecuted Jesus and had Him murdered. It was the religious that stoned Stephen. It was the religious Jews that tried to get Paul's gentile converts to keep the Law of Moses.

It is the religious, today, that will not accept the idea of God's grace where God (Jesus) atoned for (paid for) all the sins of the world. By all it it is saying all past, present, and future sins have been atoned for by the shed blood of Jesus on the cross (the work of God) .and instead teach man's works in religion.

Under grace sins of the flesh have all been atoned for. The only thing that condemns a person in the age of grace is unbelief. To not believe God when He says your sins were taken care of on the cross.

I don't understand what you just wrote. How about if you finish these sentences and it will help me understand:

A religious church is easy to identify because it............

A non-religious church is easy to identify because it............

 

[bbyrd009]

...has a qualifier around "Church" ie "Catholic church, Methodist church..." and you can point to it. Money and Contracts for Jesus will be a central theme.
...is where two or three gather in service, and has no qualifier, at least until some guy wants to build a shrine over the spot.

 

[H. Richard]

I don't understand what you just wrote. How about if you finish these sentences and it will help me understand:

A religious church is easy to identify because it............

A non-religious church is easy to identify because it............

***
First of all let us see that a church is an assembly of people.

A religious church will teach the works of men and women to save themselves. They have a doctrine that teaches men and women that they can be saved by things they can do in religion. Religions teach that sin condemns a person so they must stop sinning

A non-religious church is made up of men and women who can see that God has already done all that is necessary for men and women to be saved and it is only by believing in, having faith in, trusting in, confidence in the work that Jesus did on the cross where His shed blood paid for (atoned for) all the sins of the world. Since all sins have been atoned for then there is not any sins that condemn a person. Conclusion; the only thing that condemns a person in this age of God's grace is unbelief in the work of Jesus on the cross.

If you can see it, it is those of religion that persecute the children of God. If a person is not persecuted for their faith in what Jesus did on the cross they are not children of God.

 

[bbyrd009]

***
First of all let us see that a church is an assembly of people.

i'd like to suggest that we abandon this idea, as it is not Scriptural imo, and no congregation can be described as "where two or three have gathered" by any stretch of the imagination, even if the passage is abused for this concept.

 

[H. Richard]

i'd like to suggest that we abandon this idea, as it is not Scriptural imo, and no congregation can be described as "where two or three have gathered" by any stretch of the imagination, even if the passage is abused for this concept.

***
No we will not!

I do not believe that Jesus Christ came to set up just another new and improved physical organized religion run by men who can deceive themselves? I, personally, don't think so since he said that the time will come, after his death, when man will not say, let us go here, or there, to worship God, for man will worship God from within his/her heart, in other words, a personal worship of God whose spirit will be living within the hearts of those who love him. The following scriptures support my conclusions. Notice, in verse 28 below, how the verse acknowledges that men are weak and that the Son has been perfected forever. He did not leave us in the hands of weak human (leaders and priests). He has become our "high priest" and we need no other.


Heb 7:25-28
25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
26 For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens;
27 who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people's, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.
28 For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever.
(NKJ)




Therefore, the Church is a spiritual entity, made by the will of God and built without human hands of flesh, and the head of the Church is Jesus Christ who gave his life for it. I, personally feel that no man is to be considered as head of the Church. The Church's visibility in the world is shown through Christians that profess that faith in Jesus‘ work on the cross has saved them, individually and as groups. It is not a religious organization, or building, or certain place. Read LUKE, 17:20 "The Kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, nor will people say, here it is, or there it is, because the kingdom of God "is" within you.