aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
So you are claiming that I am a hypocrite......
Ok....do you have anything to add to the OP?
Thinking of Converting to Catholicism
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So you are claiming that I am a hypocrite......
Ok....do you have anything to add to the OP?
There is only One better choice, and only One that is right, and that is Jesus. To choose any religion, no matter what title man has given it, is to choose bondage, lies an deception.Jesus is so often the last choice, He is what is left at the bottom of the barrael when we have run out of choices., yet He is the only one that can set you free from all the lies and deceipt. Do you honestly think men have more truth then God, or do you prefer to keep Jesus at a distance. There will be no one with you on that day you stand before Him, no one to say how nice you where, or to explain all you did, Just you and Jesus, so better to know Him now, so you will know who He is when you see Him.
In His Love
In His Love
Let me preface what I am going to say by paraphrasing something the pastor at my church once told us.
He said that we will be joined by a number of people in heaven from the Catholic church, Lutheran Church, Methodist Church, etc.
But there would be people in our very church who we likely will not see in heaven.
He stated that occupying a pew does not mean you will occupy a place in heaven.
I spent the first two-plus decades of my life in the Catholic Church:
First Communion, Confirmation, Altar Boy, Reader, veteran of several SEARCH weekends, including music ministry.
I still know several people within the Catholic church and a number of them love Jesus very much.
Controversial statement number one: Those are the ones who have not embraced the practices or beliefs within the Church that are not scripturally backed.
- Praying to people in heaven other than Jesus
- Praying to Mary
- Asking people in heaven other Jesus for guidance and protection
- Purgatory
- Mary never having any other children after Jesus was born (although, in this case, the Bible says just the opposite)
- Mary was taken body and spirit into heaven and never actually died
- The Pope is infallible (although the 'original Pope' Peter was 'fallible' enough to deny Christ three times).
- Wearing the Scapular, given to Simon Stock by the 'Blessed Virgin' means that 30 days after you die you will go to heaven.
- Blessing bread and wine turn them into the ACTUAL body and blood of Jesus.
And when you ask them to explain why these practices are acceptable, you get different answers from different people within the church.
The most frequent - besides the statement that the Bible isn't the ONLY source for religious facts - is, "But the Bible doesn't say these beliefs AREN'T true,so..."
The kicker is, some of them say, "The Church doesn't believe that any more" while others will say it is still practiced in their church and is active doctrine.
I do understand that Catholics do not believe that the Bible is not the only source what is right and wrong, but when pressed to know how they can be sure that the other sources are correct and acceptable to God, it is hard to get a straight answer.
Everything from the infallibility of the Pope to why they still don't eat meat on Friday to why Catholics would think that a Scapular will ensure they will be in heaven 30 days after they do with no precondition of their current relationship with Jesus (because if you love and follow Jesus then there is no need for the Scapular anyway).
I wore a Scapular for four years before I actually questioned the use of it and could not get a decent answer from anyone as to how we even know it is acceptable in God's eyes.
The response from both of the priests in my parish was that we know it was acceptable to God because it was His mother Mary that showed up to give it to Simon Stock.
I asked how we knew for sure it transpired and was told it was my responsibility to have faith in my church and it's leaders.
...not the answer I was looking for. If they would have said, "Then don't do it if you don't believe it" that would have been one thing. But instead I was told it was my responsibility to blindly trust.
He said that we will be joined by a number of people in heaven from the Catholic church, Lutheran Church, Methodist Church, etc.
But there would be people in our very church who we likely will not see in heaven.
He stated that occupying a pew does not mean you will occupy a place in heaven.
I spent the first two-plus decades of my life in the Catholic Church:
First Communion, Confirmation, Altar Boy, Reader, veteran of several SEARCH weekends, including music ministry.
I still know several people within the Catholic church and a number of them love Jesus very much.
Controversial statement number one: Those are the ones who have not embraced the practices or beliefs within the Church that are not scripturally backed.
- Praying to people in heaven other than Jesus
- Praying to Mary
- Asking people in heaven other Jesus for guidance and protection
- Purgatory
- Mary never having any other children after Jesus was born (although, in this case, the Bible says just the opposite)
- Mary was taken body and spirit into heaven and never actually died
- The Pope is infallible (although the 'original Pope' Peter was 'fallible' enough to deny Christ three times).
- Wearing the Scapular, given to Simon Stock by the 'Blessed Virgin' means that 30 days after you die you will go to heaven.
- Blessing bread and wine turn them into the ACTUAL body and blood of Jesus.
And when you ask them to explain why these practices are acceptable, you get different answers from different people within the church.
The most frequent - besides the statement that the Bible isn't the ONLY source for religious facts - is, "But the Bible doesn't say these beliefs AREN'T true,so..."
The kicker is, some of them say, "The Church doesn't believe that any more" while others will say it is still practiced in their church and is active doctrine.
I do understand that Catholics do not believe that the Bible is not the only source what is right and wrong, but when pressed to know how they can be sure that the other sources are correct and acceptable to God, it is hard to get a straight answer.
Everything from the infallibility of the Pope to why they still don't eat meat on Friday to why Catholics would think that a Scapular will ensure they will be in heaven 30 days after they do with no precondition of their current relationship with Jesus (because if you love and follow Jesus then there is no need for the Scapular anyway).
I wore a Scapular for four years before I actually questioned the use of it and could not get a decent answer from anyone as to how we even know it is acceptable in God's eyes.
The response from both of the priests in my parish was that we know it was acceptable to God because it was His mother Mary that showed up to give it to Simon Stock.
I asked how we knew for sure it transpired and was told it was my responsibility to have faith in my church and it's leaders.
...not the answer I was looking for. If they would have said, "Then don't do it if you don't believe it" that would have been one thing. But instead I was told it was my responsibility to blindly trust.
One thing that I do miss about the Catholic Church, though is the level of reverence that is found in the Mass.
It is a reverence that I feel is often missing in the celebratory worship services in many churches, including my own.
I think at times that reverence (fear) is missing in the services of many churches.
I sometimes have difficulty - and the fault is my own - in finding a balance between the familiarity of prayers/worship based on the love I know Jesus has for me, and the reverence He deserves simply because of who He is.
There is a song out now by Casting Crowns called "Who Am I?"
The first lines of the song sum up the reverence I feel is lost in the services and worship of some churches.
"Who am I?
that the Lord of all the earth,
would care to know my name,
would care to feel my hurt."
Sometimes kneeling and reciting a heartfelt corporate prayer in whispered tones does more to show reverence for the Almighty better than pianos, drums, guitars, and tamborines.
My opinion, is all, and it does not call into question the worship with dancing and shouts of joy.
It is a reverence that I feel is often missing in the celebratory worship services in many churches, including my own.
I think at times that reverence (fear) is missing in the services of many churches.
I sometimes have difficulty - and the fault is my own - in finding a balance between the familiarity of prayers/worship based on the love I know Jesus has for me, and the reverence He deserves simply because of who He is.
There is a song out now by Casting Crowns called "Who Am I?"
The first lines of the song sum up the reverence I feel is lost in the services and worship of some churches.
"Who am I?
that the Lord of all the earth,
would care to know my name,
would care to feel my hurt."
Sometimes kneeling and reciting a heartfelt corporate prayer in whispered tones does more to show reverence for the Almighty better than pianos, drums, guitars, and tamborines.
My opinion, is all, and it does not call into question the worship with dancing and shouts of joy.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Briefly, their are many Catholics that do not know all the nuisances of the teaching of their church. The Catholic Church has been around for a long time and has a lot of doctrine. If you are interested in understanding the teachings of the Catholic Church, read the summary of doctrine in the Catechism.
I guess that is the point. I already know what Catholics currently believe.
Among those beliefs are:
- Praying to people in heaven other than Jesus
- Praying to Mary instead of to Jesus
- Asking people in heaven other Jesus for guidance and protection
- Belief in Purgatory
- Mary never having any other children after Jesus was born
- Mary being taken body and spirit into heaven and never actually dying.
- Wearing the Scapular, given to Simon Stock by the 'Blessed Virgin' means that 30 days after you die you will go to heaven.
- Blessing bread and wine turn them into the ACTUAL body and blood of Jesus.
- Papal infalibility
- Praying the Rosary and the benefits it promises
- Indulgences
They say what they believe, but they do not give explanation as to how they know it is the right thing to believe.
For Example:
Mary's bodily ascention into heaven.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church says this:
"Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death"
Who decided this?
What authority did they have to do so?
How do we know God agrees/approves?
How would they actually know this?
What evidence is there to support this?
What exactly does "Queen of All Things" mean and how do they know the Lord exacted her with this title?
There is nothing scripturally to support this yet it is a cornerstone of the Catholic Faith.
Among those beliefs are:
- Praying to people in heaven other than Jesus
- Praying to Mary instead of to Jesus
- Asking people in heaven other Jesus for guidance and protection
- Belief in Purgatory
- Mary never having any other children after Jesus was born
- Mary being taken body and spirit into heaven and never actually dying.
- Wearing the Scapular, given to Simon Stock by the 'Blessed Virgin' means that 30 days after you die you will go to heaven.
- Blessing bread and wine turn them into the ACTUAL body and blood of Jesus.
- Papal infalibility
- Praying the Rosary and the benefits it promises
- Indulgences
They say what they believe, but they do not give explanation as to how they know it is the right thing to believe.
For Example:
Mary's bodily ascention into heaven.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church says this:
"Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death"
Who decided this?
What authority did they have to do so?
How do we know God agrees/approves?
How would they actually know this?
What evidence is there to support this?
What exactly does "Queen of All Things" mean and how do they know the Lord exacted her with this title?
There is nothing scripturally to support this yet it is a cornerstone of the Catholic Faith.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
You are using a protestant standard to judge the catholic church. The only thing you can prove by using this method is that catholics are not protestants.
As far as Mary is concerned, christianity has taught deification from the beginning - as fully redeemed people we will be just like Christ and just like Mary, except we will not be worthy of praise.
Elijah was taken up to heaven in fiery chariot.......marywas only, quietly taken up.......I am failing to see the big deal in all this except for your issue with the authority of the church - all I can say is you either believe what all christians believed for 1500 years about the authority of the church based on the testimony of the gospels and paul or you believe luther who invented the doctrine of sola scriptura to justify his break with catholicism
You are using a protestant standard to judge the catholic church. The only thing you can prove by using this method is that catholics are not protestants.
As far as Mary is concerned, christianity has taught deification from the beginning - as fully redeemed people we will be just like Christ and just like Mary, except we will not be worthy of praise.
Elijah was taken up to heaven in fiery chariot.......marywas only, quietly taken up.......I am failing to see the big deal in all this except for your issue with the authority of the church - all I can say is you either believe what all christians believed for 1500 years about the authority of the church based on the testimony of the gospels and paul or you believe luther who invented the doctrine of sola scriptura to justify his break with catholicism
As far as Mary is concerned, christianity has taught deification from the beginning - as fully redeemed people we will be just like Christ and just like Mary, except we will not be worthy of praise.
Elijah was taken up to heaven in fiery chariot.......marywas only, quietly taken up.......I am failing to see the big deal in all this except for your issue with the authority of the church - all I can say is you either believe what all christians believed for 1500 years about the authority of the church based on the testimony of the gospels and paul or you believe luther who invented the doctrine of sola scriptura to justify his break with catholicism
You are using a protestant standard to judge the catholic church. The only thing you can prove by using this method is that catholics are not protestants.
As far as Mary is concerned, christianity has taught deification from the beginning - as fully redeemed people we will be just like Christ and just like Mary, except we will not be worthy of praise.
Elijah was taken up to heaven in fiery chariot.......marywas only, quietly taken up.......I am failing to see the big deal in all this except for your issue with the authority of the church - all I can say is you either believe what all christians believed for 1500 years about the authority of the church based on the testimony of the gospels and paul or you believe luther who invented the doctrine of sola scriptura to justify his break with catholicism
-- I am sorry, but it isn't that simple. It is not just simply Vatican or Luther.
Especially when there is nothing in "the authority of the church based on the testimony of the gospels and paul" that support the idea that Mary was "quietly taken up" body and soul.
To repeat, before Luther nailed his little manifesto to the church doors, there was nothing to support this idea anyway.
You say that Mary was "quietly taken up." Fine. How do you know that?
What person or persons told you that and what was the basis for their claim?
Or to put it another way, what qualifications did they have to make that claim?
With Elijah you can point to God-breathed scripture.
Aspen, I am not looking to pick a fight, but these are legitimate questions.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
I understand that you are not fighting.
You are not finding the assumption of Mary in the Bible because as everyone knows there is no record of Mary being taken up to Heaven in the Bible.
Once again, the issue is not Mary, it concerns authority. You view the Bible as your final authority. I view the Bible and Tradition of the Church as my authority. The assumption of Mary was was widely believed among early Christians and is recorded in extra-Biblical sources. It is also significant to Catholics that no grave for Mary has ever been found or venerated. This is enough evidence for the Catholic Church to declare that belief in the Assumption of Mary can be considered a Holy practice. Are you going to be damned if you do not believe it....no. Is pondering the deification of one of God's saints going to enrich your spiritual life....perhaps. Is this enough evidence for Protestants.....not if they takes sola scriptura to heart.
The issue of Mary's role in the life of Jesus is not a problem for Catholics - in fact, I personally believe the people who think about her the most are Reformed apologists.
I think your Catholic education is very poor Foreigner.
You say that the Pope is not infallible ? but clearly you have no comprehension on what is meant by that. i was a protestant my self mate and believed that it was a joke! for someone to say that the Pope was infallible and i believed anyone who believed that must be or was a idiot. but i happened to read the doctrine of Papal infallibility ? and that is when i questioned my pastor about why he was telling me and the others a full on straight out big fat filthy lie. after his slandering hog wash ranting. that was the day i came out from amongst them, Devils!
Do you self a favour and study what it's really is saying people.
The bread and wine are Spiritually actual ? not worldly, i would say and that people who can't comprehend that are lacking spiritually.
Any attack on Mary is an attack on Christ. as you say that she had other children it is clear that the words Brother & Sisters does not mean that they are and any road he did have half brothers & Sisters but their is no facts that say anything at all about Mary having any more. and if she did so what.
If their was no Mary and she did not say yes then there would be no Jesus mate but we have people who try and slander Mary and why! because they are trying to undermine the whole truth.
In prayer it is the raising the mind and heart to God, we pray primarily to God but if we need help we can call upon the Saints. as we should not just be babbling stupid vain nonsense in prayer.
I used to be deeply offended at what i wrongly thought that all this Mary worship was about.
-- How can I put this....Mr. Rosenberger, you are - and I mean this in a scientific and spiritual sense - full of beans.
Allow me to prove my theory:
"You say that the Pope is not infallible ? but clearly you have no comprehension on what is meant by that." - MrR.
-- The Catholic church - at least through this last Wednesday - supports the concept of Papal Infalibility.
Not in giving personal advise on someone's lovelife, selecting lottery tickets, knowing the best person to select for a specific position, etc., but under these circumstances:
1. When he is making a doctrinal pronouncement in the role as an "official successor of Peter."
2. The pronouncement must be in the area of faith or morals.
3. He must be speaking from ex cathedra (from the chair) of Peter and "must be intending to proclaim a doctrin that binds the entire church to assent."
That means the Catholic church says that whatever he says or does when these three conditions are met is INFALIBLE.
"The bread and wine are Spiritually actual ? not worldly, i would say and that people who can't comprehend that are lacking spiritually." - MrR.
-- From the Cathechism: Ahem...
"What was once an ordinary piece of bread and an ordinary cup of wine, has now been changed (transubstantiated) into Jesus. In other words, just like Jesus changed the substance of water into wine at Cana, the priest, through the power of Jesus given to him at his ordination, changes the substances of bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Jesus at the consecration."
-- The understanding isn't the issue. The proof of the concept is.
In typical Catholic fashion it is stated as fact with no supporting proof and those that question are the ones who are criticized.
"Any attack on Mary is an attack on Christ." - MrR
-- So, Asking someone to provide proof that Mary was actually taken into heaven body and soul without dying instead of blindly believing is...."an attack on Mary?"
Did you stop to think that if it ISN'T true, that Mary herself would have an issue with someone saying that?
The Catechism states: Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death"
Asking for some sort of evidence to support the idea that she was taken up body and soul and that she was "exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things" is not "an attack on Mary. " Especially when the claim - backed up by ZERO evidence - is an attack on reason and common sense.
"but their is no facts that say anything at all about Mary having any more." - MrR
-- Dude, you walked yourself right into your own contradiction.
You base a belief on many things in the Catholic church that have "no facts."
Unfortunately for you, scripture speaks SPECIFICALLY about it:
"Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? And are not all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?” - Matt 13: 55-56
I know, I know. This is where you have to claim that the scripture was "misinterpreted" or "poorly translated" or "taken out of context" or just plain wrong.
It must be anything other than as accurate as it is written because it undermines the Catholic opinion.
"but their is no facts that say anything at all about Mary having any more. and if she did so what." - MrR
- "So what?" "So WHAT? "
If she did that would mean that the Catholic position on this is wrong.
That would mean that those who decided this position....are wrong.
And that means there are likely other positions that the Catholic church has taken that.....are wrong.
Unbelievable....
"In prayer it is the raising the mind and heart to God, we pray primarily to God but if we need help we can call upon the Saints" - MrR
-- And therein lies the issues. We shouldn't pray "primarily" to God. We should pray ONLY to God.
God talks about being a jealous God. How do you think He feels about you spending time on your knees, eyes closed, hands folded, sharing intimate requests with someone OTHER than Him.
It also cheapens who Jesus is. If He loves us enough to have died for us, is supposed to be closer than our best friend or our brother, and He is sitting at the right hand of our Father presenting our requests, why in the world would you need to pray to anyone else in heaven.
The very act of doing so calls into question Christ's love and His role on our behalf.
"as we should not just be babbling stupid vain nonsense in prayer." - MrR
-- When I would finish confession, the priest would say, "Now go do 10 'Our Fathers' 20 'Hail Marys' and 5 'Glory Bes'
I, like everyone else, would then go out and rattle them off. Another name for that would be babbling nonsensically.
Why? You saying the 'Our Father' more than once in a row is not necessary if you meant it from your heart the first time you said it. Hence, it becomes repetitive and nonsensical."
Please feel free to educate yourself further before replying. Thank you.
.
Whew you are really full of beans.
You are way off track.
I feel you just want to be able to look at a book say like a police officer could do and just go wright anything down giving even a silly impractical point with out comprehending the bigger picture.
Don't idolise the books as Jesus Christ is our Lord and Saviour end of story.
"You could look into it more so than just that, as there is more to it bro. come on educate your self." - MrR
-- Suuuuuure there's more. That's why the Catholic Catechism only mentions what I quoted directly.
Let's review shall we:
1. You say I don't understand Papal Infalibility
2. I quote directly from the Catholic Catechism, which specifically states what the term means.
3. You say "there's more than just that" but decline to provide anything to support your statement.
4. You think you actually said something.
"Some asked Jesus about proof and he pointed to Jonah. are you are just like them bro?" - MrR
-- Some ask mere mortals like yourself and are shown that you are simply not qualified to answer.
"Proof ! again see Jonah. and i think it's an assumption is it not that the Church has made bro." - MrR
I quoted the Cathoic Catechism you fail to speak English.
Yup, we are quite a pair.
" i think that someone has just been indoctrinating you and you are just swallowing it all up with out true consideration mate." - MrR
-- Actually, that that is the perfect description of a person who is willing to embrace unsubstantiated Catholic doctrine.
"So what is it about that you don't understand bro, sorry to say you are just pushing a silly brat like concept. try to be honest with yourself mate. stop being full of hate and start seeking bro." - MrR
Another quick review:
1. Catholics claim Mary had no children other than Jesus
2. I provided God-breathed scripture that shows she did
3. You say that even if she did, "So what?"
4. I use common sense to show that if they are wrong in one area....
5. You accuse me of hating and tell me to seek
6. You fail to realize that it was the "seeking" part that showed me the scripture that proves you wrong.
7. I laugh out loud
"God is the only and main point bro and if we ask for help, is that wrong? one of the problems is that some may be praying in vain mate or not truly centered on Christ as i have come across people that are not praying but think that they are." - MrR
-- This is somehow your explanation as to why you pray to someone other than Jesus?
And you are oblivious to the fact that your statement "praying in vain mate or not truly centered on Christ" describes perfectly the very practice you encourage.
Amazing lol
Dude, the Pope called. He's wondering if you would consider becoming a Methodist.
-- Suuuuuure there's more. That's why the Catholic Catechism only mentions what I quoted directly.
Let's review shall we:
1. You say I don't understand Papal Infalibility
2. I quote directly from the Catholic Catechism, which specifically states what the term means.
3. You say "there's more than just that" but decline to provide anything to support your statement.
4. You think you actually said something.
"Some asked Jesus about proof and he pointed to Jonah. are you are just like them bro?" - MrR
-- Some ask mere mortals like yourself and are shown that you are simply not qualified to answer.
"Proof ! again see Jonah. and i think it's an assumption is it not that the Church has made bro." - MrR
I quoted the Cathoic Catechism you fail to speak English.
Yup, we are quite a pair.
" i think that someone has just been indoctrinating you and you are just swallowing it all up with out true consideration mate." - MrR
-- Actually, that that is the perfect description of a person who is willing to embrace unsubstantiated Catholic doctrine.
"So what is it about that you don't understand bro, sorry to say you are just pushing a silly brat like concept. try to be honest with yourself mate. stop being full of hate and start seeking bro." - MrR
Another quick review:
1. Catholics claim Mary had no children other than Jesus
2. I provided God-breathed scripture that shows she did
3. You say that even if she did, "So what?"
4. I use common sense to show that if they are wrong in one area....
5. You accuse me of hating and tell me to seek
6. You fail to realize that it was the "seeking" part that showed me the scripture that proves you wrong.
7. I laugh out loud
"God is the only and main point bro and if we ask for help, is that wrong? one of the problems is that some may be praying in vain mate or not truly centered on Christ as i have come across people that are not praying but think that they are." - MrR
-- This is somehow your explanation as to why you pray to someone other than Jesus?
And you are oblivious to the fact that your statement "praying in vain mate or not truly centered on Christ" describes perfectly the very practice you encourage.
Amazing lol
Dude, the Pope called. He's wondering if you would consider becoming a Methodist.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Yeah, I strongly promote understanding your faith tradition. If I didn't read as much about Catholicism as I possibly could I would have never decided to join the church. I had all the typical Protestant objects in the beginning that had to be addressed. Also, I was not about to view the church as an authority without researching and continuing to read about how it operates. People can disagree with my decision to become Catholic, but they cannot say I went into the decision without addressing as many issues as possible.
I think you are to full of hate to see it bro.
I think praying starts with Jesus and finishes with Jesus and in between i could call on the help of the Saints the (knowledge of the Saints that i have?) to help me in my prayer. so it never leaves Christ at all out of the picture and one may pray for hours maybe even up to 5 HR.
I was like you thinking that some poor fool was just praying to Mary and it was years until could see the truth only because i was mislead and my anger clouded the truth.
Poor Jonah.
Sorry Rosey but I have no hate.
I do have disappointement though. Disappointment in the fact that you accuse but do not support.
Call someone wrong but do not provide evidence to support that claim.
I spent decades as a Catholic and have shown in a couple of very simple posts that I have a deeper understanding of the faith that you blindly follow than you do.
With you, someone presenting scripture that contradicts your position and simply asks you to support your position = hate. Got it now, thanks.
.
I do have disappointement though. Disappointment in the fact that you accuse but do not support.
Call someone wrong but do not provide evidence to support that claim.
I spent decades as a Catholic and have shown in a couple of very simple posts that I have a deeper understanding of the faith that you blindly follow than you do.
With you, someone presenting scripture that contradicts your position and simply asks you to support your position = hate. Got it now, thanks.
.
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