This Makes More Sense To Me Now

[Enoch111]

I think first fruits already happened, with Jesus and the many of their dead they saw walking around. Then the main harvest would be the gathering together and the gleaning would be…the 144,000 mid trib…I dunno, maybe. Makes sense to me anyway.

That's more or less correct. The "First Resurrection" (which is the resurrection of the saints or the just) resembles a Hebrew harvest:

FIRSTFRUITS -- the resurrection of Christ
THE MAIN HARVEST -- the Resurrection/Rapture of the Church
THE GLEANINGS -- the resurrection of the Tribulation saints

The 144,000 do not die, are not martyred, and are not killed. They are simply raptured to Heaven before the Tribulation.

 

[Charlie24]

That's more or less correct. The "First Resurrection" (which is the resurrection of the saints or the just) resembles a Hebrew harvest:

FIRSTFRUITS -- the resurrection of Christ
THE MAIN HARVEST -- the Resurrection/Rapture of the Church
THE GLEANINGS -- the resurrection of the Tribulation saints

The 144,000 do not die, are not martyred, and are not killed. They are simply raptured to Heaven before the Tribulation.

It is true that the Scripture does not record their death, but it is very unlikely they were called up without dying.

The Scripture says that it is appointed once for man to die. They would be the only ones to escape this appointed death before the return of Christ, where there will be some who will escape that death at that point.

Even the 2 witnesses come back to face that death before the return of Christ.

 

[Enoch111]

They would be the only ones to escape this appointed death before the return of Christ, where there will be some who will escape that death at that point.

Enoch and Elijah escaped death also.

 

[Charlie24]

Enoch and Elijah escaped death also.

Aren't they the witnesses? If they are, then no one escapes death before the return of Christ.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The 2 books are the Book of Life and the other, everything you did in your life, literally. Together, the proof is there for your Judgment.

I know this is confusing, but stick with me and I will explain.

The first phase of the first resurrection takes place as Paul told us in 1 Thes. 4:13-18. These are all the saved.

There is a separation of 1000 years between the first resurrection and the second resurrection in Rev. 20 at the Great Whit Throne.

Rev. 20:5, "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the 1000 years were finished."

These are the dead, including those in hell who are raised up and stand before God, all unsaved and doomed.

Rev. 20:11-15
"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Do you see the bold? "This is the second death." The second death is eternal separation from God.

All of these here are the second resurrection who have been given the second death, spiritual death, that means the Lake of Fire.

Mmm…you need to work on that some more for me to be able to understand it. It’s okay to have a broad outline, I’ve no issue with that. It’s how I began too. But it’s then important to check assumptions. For instance, you seem to be assuming no more can be written into the book of life during the tribulation. And what I read(combined, admittedly, with my suspicion that the gathering together occurs prewrath) suggests that assumption could be/may be wrong.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Aren't they the witnesses? If they are, then no one escapes death before the return of Christ.

umm…I can’t grab that assumption either…the “and we who remain” verse has to be fit in somewhere too…

 

[Enoch111]

Aren't they the witnesses? If they are, then no one escapes death before the return of Christ.

I believe Moses and Elijah are the two witnesses. So Enoch in fact escaped death, and so will all the saints at the Rapture (who are alive at that time). And this is BEFORE the Second Coming of Christ.

 

[Charlie24]

Mmm…you need to work on that some more for me to be able to understand it. It’s okay to have a broad outline, I’ve no issue with that. It’s how I began too. But it’s then important to check assumptions. For instance, you seem to be assuming no more can be written into the book of life during the tribulation. And what I read(combined, admittedly, with my suspicion that the gathering together occurs prewrath) suggests that assumption could be/may be wrong.

Ok, we are in the pre-mil view now, the rapture that many deny. I will put that together in my next post.

Forgetting for now the phases of the first resurrection, let's make it simple by just the first resurrection (everyone from the beginning of time to this point of the first resurrection).

What is important to know is that between this resurrection and the second resurrection, there is a span of 1000 years. This period is the Millennial Reign of Christ.

The first resurrection is described by Paul in 1 Thes., it is when all the dead in Christ will come out of the graves and those who remain alive (who are in Christ) will be changed into the resurrected body/glorified body that Christ had at His resurrection.

They will meet Christ in the air, and forever be with the Lord. Now this is the first resurrection that takes place 1000 years before the second resurrection of the damned.

Next I will put together this first resurrection as seen by the pre-mils. This means that those in Christ will not go through the tribulation, they are taken out in this first resurrection before it begins. I will show you that from Scripture as we see it.

 

[Charlie24]

I believe Moses and Elijah are the two witnesses. So Enoch in fact escaped death, and so will all the saints at the Rapture (who are alive at that time). And this is BEFORE the Second Coming of Christ.

I can't believe that, Moses has already died once. He was buried by God.

I believe it to be Elijah and Enoch.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I can't believe that, Moses has already died once. He was buried by God.

I believe it to be Elijah and Enoch.

I tend to agree. I guess my reason isn’t great though, when you consider we don’t know what happened with Lazarus…but the verse says it’s appointed to a man to die only once. Everyone maybe assumes Lazarus died a second time but…we don’t know for sure.

But then some would say only once means absolutely once, which doesn’t fit with “and we who are alive and remain.”

 

[Charlie24]

I tend to agree. I guess my reason isn’t great though, when you consider we don’t know what happened with Lazarus…but the verse says it’s appointed to a man to die only once. Everyone maybe assumes Lazarus died a second time but…we don’t know for sure.

But then some would say only once means absolutely once, which doesn’t fit with “and we who are alive and remain.”

That's true! We don't know about the second death of Lazarus. But we do know he was dead because Mary said that by now his body was stinking. We also know that he was raised from the dead by Christ.

So that is a good point, and we don't know.

It is possible that he died the second death, but for some reason I don't think so. I believe what happened to him is same that happened to Elijah and Enoch, he was taken to heaven and given a glorified body.

Since he has already died he will be the exception to the resurrection already having the glorified body. Elijah and Enoch will come back from heaven to face their appointed death.

Of course I could be wrong, but that's what I believe anyway, for what it's worth.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

It’s the most fascinating stuff to turn over in your mind, isn’t it? And it’s especially fun when you can do it with someone who isn’t so completely sure they’ve seen it all.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

That's true! We don't know about the second death of Lazarus. But we do know he was dead because Mary said that by now his body was stinking. We also know that he was raised from the dead by Christ.

So that is a good point, and we don't know.

It is possible that he died the second death, but for some reason I don't think so. I believe what happened to him is same that happened to Elijah and Enoch, he was taken to heaven and given a glorified body.

Since he has already died he will be the exception to the resurrection already having the glorified body. Elijah and Enoch will come back from heaven to face their appointed death.

Of course I could be wrong, but that's what I believe anyway, for what it's worth.

Ah, another assumption. We can’t help it, our minds just do it! But isn’t it an assumption that Lazarus has a glorified body already? If he was taken as Enoch and Elijah, why would our brain assume they have glorified bodies? In fact, if Enoch and Elijah have their glorified bodies, could they even BE killed and lie dead for 3 days as Rev says?

 

[Charlie24]

Ah, another assumption. We can’t help it, our minds just do it! But isn’t it an assumption that Lazarus has a glorified body already? If he was taken as Enoch and Elijah, why would our brain assume they have glorified bodies? In fact, if Enoch and Elijah have their glorified bodies, could they even BE killed and lie dead for 3 days as Rev says?

Well when we know something had to happen and no Scripture to tell us, all that's left is assumption.

They would have had to receive a glorified body, they entered into heaven both body and soul. I don't see any other way.

 

[Marilyn C]

I can't believe that, Moses has already died once. He was buried by God.

I believe it to be Elijah and Enoch.

Enoch cannot witness of Christ to Israel in the trib. Moses and Elijah are designated as the `2 men` who will witness of Christ`s death, resurrection and ascension.

`Then behold, two men talked with Him, who were Moses and Elijah, who appeared in glory and spoke of His decease which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem.` (Luke 9: 30 & 31)

Here we read of the Lord talking to two men, Moses and Elijah concerning what He was about to do - go to the cross. Then later we see these same two men at other significant times - the tomb and the ascension.

`And it happened, as they were greatly perplexed about this, that behold, two men stood by them in shining garments. Then as they were afraid and bowed their faces to the earth, they (the two men) said to them (disciples) "Why do you seek the living among the dead? he is not here, but is risen...` (Luke 24: 4 - 6)

`And while they looked steadfastly towards heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven." (Acts 1: 10 & 11)

Thus we see that these `two men,` Moses and Elijah knew of the Lord`s sacrifice, His burial and resurrection and finally His ascension into heaven. They are precisely the two men who will be qualified to talk to Israel in the tribulation, for they represent the `law and the Prophets,` and are a `witness` to the Messiah - His death, resurrection and ascension.

That is why they are called `witnesses.` What have they witnessed? - Jesus on earth, talking of His departure, His resurrection and ascension, plus speaking of His return in like manner. Who best qualified to speak of those things but the two witnesses - eye witnesses - Moses & Elijah.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Well when we know something had to happen and no Scripture to tell us, all that's left is assumption.

They would have had to receive a glorified body, they entered into heaven both body and soul. I don't see any other way.

Well…what about the souls under the altar in heaven, resting? They are in heaven and it doesn’t sound like they have glorified bodies yet.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Enoch cannot witness of Christ to Israel in the trib. Moses and Elijah are designated as the `2 men` who will witness of Christ`s death, resurrection and ascension.

`Then behold, two men talked with Him, who were Moses and Elijah, who appeared in glory and spoke of His decease which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem.` (Luke 9: 30 & 31)

Here we read of the Lord talking to two men, Moses and Elijah concerning what He was about to do - go to the cross. Then later we see these same two men at other significant times - the tomb and the ascension.

`And it happened, as they were greatly perplexed about this, that behold, two men stood by them in shining garments. Then as they were afraid and bowed their faces to the earth, they (the two men) said to them (disciples) "Why do you seek the living among the dead? he is not here, but is risen...` (Luke 24: 4 - 6)

`And while they looked steadfastly towards heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven." (Acts 1: 10 & 11)

Thus we see that these `two men,` Moses and Elijah knew of the Lord`s sacrifice, His burial and resurrection and finally His ascension into heaven. They are precisely the two men who will be qualified to talk to Israel in the tribulation, for they represent the `law and the Prophets,` and are a `witness` to the Messiah - His death, resurrection and ascension.

That is why they are called `witnesses.` What have they witnessed? - Jesus on earth, talking of His departure, His resurrection and ascension, plus speaking of His return in like manner. Who best qualified to speak of those things but the two witnesses - eye witnesses - Moses & Elijah.

Still though, a lot of assumptions. And it would have Moses dying twice…

 

[ScottA]

There were 3 main festivals that every man had to attend - Passover, Pentecost, Tabernacles.
Passover was at time of barley harvest.
Pentecost, wheat harvest.
Tabernacles, olives and grapes.

So “do not harm the oil (from olives) and the wine” (from grapes) makes some sense to me now.

The thing I disagree with in the man I was listening to when that clicked for me is regarding first fruits, main harvest and gleaning.
I think first fruits already happened, with Jesus and the many of their dead they saw walking around. Then the main harvest would be the gathering together and the gleaning would be…the 144,000 mid trib…I dunno, maybe. Makes sense to me anyway.

The "oil and the wine" just refers to the flesh and the spirit, represented allegorically as the olive tree, and the wine as the Holy Spirit following Pentecost (of which Christ is firstfruits).

 

[Marilyn C]

There were 3 main festivals that every man had to attend - Passover, Pentecost, Tabernacles.
Passover was at time of barley harvest.
Pentecost, wheat harvest.
Tabernacles, olives and grapes.

So “do not harm the oil (from olives) and the wine” (from grapes) makes some sense to me now.

The thing I disagree with in the man I was listening to when that clicked for me is regarding first fruits, main harvest and gleaning.
I think first fruits already happened, with Jesus and the many of their dead they saw walking around. Then the main harvest would be the gathering together and the gleaning would be…the 144,000 mid trib…I dunno, maybe. Makes sense to me anyway.

Hi stunnedbygrace,

Some good thoughts there. Just a few more -
The festivals were given by God for Israel as a timeline for God`s purposes for them. We, the Body of Christ receive of Christ`s work there, however the celebrations are for Israel.

Passover - from Egypt and fulfilled by the Lord as the Lamb that Israel used for sacrifice at that time. (Luke 22: 7)

Pentecost - from the giving of the Law. It will be fulfilled for Israel, (as a nation) when the Holy Spirit enlightens them to their Messiah when he reveals Himself to them. (Zech. 12: 10)

Day of Atonement - When the High Priest would go into the Holy of Holies once a year for national deliverance. To be fulfilled when the Lord returns and delivers Israel from their enemies. (Rev. 8 & 15: 5, 19:11)

Tabernacles - when Israel was in the wilderness and built shelters, (tabernacles). To be fulfilled in the millennium when the Lord is ruling through Israel over the nations. (Zech. 14: 16)

Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

Still though, a lot of assumptions. And it would have Moses dying twice…

They never found the body of Moses. Remember Satan tried to get it but Michael the archangel disputed with him. (Jude 9) And this was BEFORE Jesus died and rose again.

God had another purpose for Moses.