This really grabbed me today!

[Brakelite]

I’m working on a paper right now that deals with that very question in my thesis . I might post it soon .

There is a broader, bigger, picture associated with that... The state of the dead. Christianity in general, unfortunately, have that wrong. I don't know all the answers, but scripture repeatedly declares that in death there is no consciousness, and without a resurrection, there is no life.
The fruit of that resulted in the mistaken belief that Christ was "in hell" preaching to folk during His time in the tomb. This He didn't "surely die", a carry over from Satan's lie in the garden.

 

[quietthinker]

There is a broader, bigger, picture associated with that... The state of the dead. Christianity in general, unfortunately, have that wrong. I don't know all the answers, but scripture repeatedly declares that in death there is no consciousness, and without a resurrection, there is no life.
The fruit of that resulted in the mistaken belief that Christ was "in hell" preaching to folk during His time in the tomb. This He didn't "surely die", a carry over from Satan's lie in the garden.

As mentioned in another thread, faulty assumptions have the power to drive the most truth divergent conclusions. I guess the convolution that this spawns has Paul saying 'work out your own salvation with fear and trembling'

 

[face2face]

My position (non-negotiable) is that Christ's identification with us in dying for our sins in no way requires that He actually experience our sins. But identification with me requires that He be human, like me.

True!

What I am about to present will challenge you because if you believe Jesus had our nature, which some here do, then the next logical question is "did Jesus benefit from his own death?""

Read this section:

Hebrews 9:11 But now Christ has come as the high priest of the good things to come. He passed through the greater and more perfect tent not made with hands, that is, not of this creation,

(first man to ever do so!)

Hebrews 9:12 and he entered once for all into the most holy place not by the blood of goats and calves but by his own blood, and so he himself secured eternal redemption. Hebrews 9:13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a young cow sprinkled on those who are defiled consecrated them and provided ritual purity, consciences from dead works to worship the living God. Hebrews 9:15 And so he (Jesus) is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the eternal inheritance he has promised, since he died to set them free from the violations committed under the first covenant.

Issue 1. He only entered once into God's Heavenly realm! This implies a first time!
Issue 2. Who did he secure eternal redemption for? Himself included?
Issue 3. He entered by his own blood to mean by his sinless obedient life - a prerequisite of his entry.
Issue 4. The Living God need not redemption like the Christ, so what is the difference between Jesus the mediator and the Living God?
Issue 5. Jesus having a condemned nature includes him in securing eternal redemption which is why Revelation 1:18 emphasizes that Jesus "lives for evermore"
Issue 6. What are the consequences if you remove Jesus from his own redemption?
Issue 7. If he didn't secure for himself he cannot be the firstborn from the dead.

He is the anti typical High Priest who went in once per year to offer sacrifices for himself and the people Hebrews 9:7 ... how many times did Christ do this when reading the above text? Red text!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

You know, epi said something recently and, annoyingly, I can’t find it.
It was something like us wanting to be like Jesus and emulate Jesus but…Jesus saying God was greater than He was, and it being good to desire to be like Jesus, but to seek to be like the MOST high God would be the sin of satan.
I can’t get my mind to go in a direction of a lesser God being Jesus and the most high God being God the Father, but there is something to this…

Almost like…He had to give us an example that we could see of what we are meant to be, how we are meant to be, what He wants us to be like and be conformed to - and it’s Jesus.

And God has no problem with us worshiping Jesus, God in a human form we can relate to. In fact, He commands it. And not only that but…if I try to envision and talk to God, I find I cannot do it. There’s just a gaping blank in my mind when I consider “God.” The only way I can do it is to talk to or pray to Jesus, God manifested in a human form. When I say, Lord, I am talking to Jesus. I could not in any way say, God, I have a question. But I can easily say, Lord, I have a question. And I guess that’s exactly as it should be since He’s the way to the Father and we are to pray “in His name” because He is the Mediator between myself and God. But I do not think “in His name” means I have to say “in Jesus’ name I pray.” Honestly, I don’t even always say, Lord, thus and thus. Sometimes I just say the thus and thus part but I am saying it TO Jesus. I cannot even comprehend talking to God directly. If I tried, I would just sit there in a stupor. I actually HAVE to do it…through Jesus. It’s the only way I can do it…

I think we cannot totally see Jesus as He really is but we are told we will see Him as He really is one day. It says, when He appears, we will be like Him because we will see Him as He is.

I mean, does anyone else pray by saying, God, thus and thus?

 

[quietthinker]

You know, epi said something recently and, annoyingly, I can’t find it.
It was something like us wanting to be like Jesus and emulate Jesus but…Jesus saying God was greater than He was, and it being good to desire to be like Jesus, but to seek to be like the MOST high God would be the sin of satan.
I can’t get my mind to go in a direction of a lesser God being Jesus and the most high God being God the Father, but there is something to this…

Almost like…He had to give us an example that we could see of what we are meant to be, how we are meant to be, what He wants us to be like and be conformed to - and it’s Jesus.

And God has no problem with us worshiping Jesus, God in a human form we can relate to. In fact, He commands it. And not only that but…if I try to envision and talk to God, I find I cannot do it. There’s just a gaping blank in my mind when I consider “God.” The only way I can do it is to talk to or pray to Jesus, God manifested in a human form. When I say, Lord, I am talking to Jesus. I could not in any way say, God, I have a question. But I can easily say, Lord, I have a question. And I guess that’s exactly as it should be since He’s the way to the Father and we are to pray “in His name” because He is the Mediator between myself and God. But I do not think “in His name” means I have to say “in Jesus’ name I pray.” Honestly, I don’t even always say, Lord, thus and thus. Sometimes I just say the thus and thus part but I am saying it TO Jesus. I cannot even comprehend talking to God directly. If I tried, I would just sit there in a stupor. I actually HAVE to do it…through Jesus. It’s the only way I can do it…

I think we cannot totally see Jesus as He really is but we are told we will see Him as He really is one day. It says, when He appears, we will be like Him because we will see Him as He is.

I mean, does anyone else pray by saying, God, thus and thus?

I think Jesus' reply to the woman at the well ie, worshiping in spirit and truth cuts through the formalities either wittingly or unwittingly constructed by men.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

And his appearance irrelevant you think?

pfft!

 

[face2face]

pfft!

So you believe his appearance as the Christ is how he looked before the creation of the world.
Interesting.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

There is a broader, bigger, picture associated with that... The state of the dead. Christianity in general, unfortunately, have that wrong. I don't know all the answers, but scripture repeatedly declares that in death there is no consciousness,

But scripture also has martyrs under the altar in heaven saying, when will you avenge us? And scripture also has Moses and Elijah speaking with Jesus during the Transfiguration. Just as with everything, there are both statements, both sets of scripture.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

So you believe his appearance as the Christ is how he looked before the creation of the world.
Interesting.

tsk! What are you talking about? You don’t even think He existed before He took on a human body.

 

[face2face]

tsk! What are you talking about? You don’t even think He existed before He took on a human body.

Correct - I am asking you your opinion!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Correct - I am asking you your opinion!

Well we certainly don’t need another opinion in here.

 

[face2face]

There is a broader, bigger, picture associated with that... The state of the dead. Christianity in general, unfortunately, have that wrong. I don't know all the answers, but scripture repeatedly declares that in death there is no consciousness, and without a resurrection, there is no life.

I need to apologise Brakelite for assuming you were the standard "run of the mill christian" and while we don't agree on much, the bold text is Biblical truth and your willingness to take the unpopular route is impressive. I'll take more care next time in dealing with your posts.

F2F

 

[face2face]

Well we certainly don’t need another opinion in here.

It's a hard question I get it.

 

[face2face]

But scripture also has martyrs under the altar in heaven saying, when will you avenge us? And scripture also has Moses and Elijah speaking with Jesus during the Transfiguration. Just as with everything, there are both statements, both sets of scripture.

Both can be answered Scripturally but not in this thread.

 

[quietthinker]

But scripture also has martyrs under the altar in heaven saying, when will you avenge us? And scripture also has Moses and Elijah speaking with Jesus during the Transfiguration. Just as with everything, there are both statements, both sets of scripture.

Determining metaphor from literal is mandatory if one wants to understand intent, ie, the message/meaning in the image recorded by John. Get it wrong and one goes down a rabbit hole of fantasy.....and ultimately error.

 

[bbyrd009]

My question is still not being answered, is that because you don't know?
J.

well, i def dont know, but that seemed like a pretty good answer to me?

anyway i bet Christ is "appearing" in heaven right now when we see Him as He is

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Determining metaphor from literal is mandatory if one wants to understand intent, ie, the message/meaning in the image recorded by John. Get it wrong and one goes down a rabbit hole of fantasy.....and ultimately error.

You do not think the three with Jesus at the time were literally seeing Moses and Elijah? If they weren’t literally seeing and hearing them talk with Jesus, why would they be wanting to build literal booths or shelters or whatever you call them?

 

[quietthinker]

You do not think the three with Jesus at the time were literally seeing Moses and Elijah? If they weren’t literally seeing and hearing them talk with Jesus, why would they be wanting to build literal booths or shelters or whatever you call them?

I'm referring to John's vision in Revelation of seeing souls under the altar.
The account of Moses and Elijah appearing to Jesus on the mountain has totally different context......but to clarify the event of the transfiguration as I read it, it was literal.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

It's a hard question I get it.

Yeah, it’s a hard question. An impossible to answer question even. I was not there before the creation of the world so how could I say what He looked like? My best guess is He looked like light? Like at the Transfiguration? Sheesh.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I'm referring to John's vision in Revelation of seeing souls under the altar.
The account of Moses and Elijah appearing to Jesus on the mountain has totally different context......but to clarify the event of the transfiguration as I read it, it was literal.

You’ve reminded me of a dream I had…I can’t remember it all. It took place in a courtroom and had something to do with blood talking during the trial. I saw the one on trial, but could not see the martyrs, but I could hear their blood talking. Weird huh?