This really grabbed me today!

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stunnedbygrace

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Why am I arguing at all? I don't even have a dog in this fight.

That makes me not only a fool, but a nutcase who argues with himself. :confused:o_O

You are so wrong. You are searching for the balance. The Word is a seamless robe that cannot be torn apart or it will be ruined. It’s all woven in one piece. You are in a good place. I love your wrestling’s. It’s as if you do them for me.
 

stunnedbygrace

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And if all the law speaks of Him and all the prophets speak of Him and the NT is completely about Him, who IS He?? The entire Bible you hold in your hands is ABOUT Him. Who do YOU say He is? He is our Lord and our God. There shouldn’t even be any question about who Jesus is. I mean, really! If anyone tries to convince you to any way minimize Him, you should flee them if they begin to make you question who He is.
 
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Lambano

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I think I understand why the Nicene fathers stated the doctrine the way they did, because the Biblical narrative clearly shows Jesus relating to God the Father as a persona separate from Himself, just as we humans must do. This is not just a consequence of the Incarnation; the Colossians reference in the OP also refers to Father and Son as separate persona before creation. As does the classic Philippians 2:6-11 passage and others.

Yes, when He became flesh, and walked as a human, that is true.

Okay, but our conceptual models (mental graven images?) have to take into account those verses which talk about Father and Son also being separate personas (personae?) in Jesus's pre-incarnational and exalted states. This is why the orthodox doctrine is stated in a confusing, complex mess of Greek philosophical terms. Men (and women) who are a lot smarter and a lot more spiritual than me did the best they could with what we have. But this is why I'm more than willing to cut some slack to both sides of the debate. Even as one side condemns me as an idolator, the other as a heretic. I just don't know, which probably gets me vomited out for being neither hot nor cold.
 

stunnedbygrace

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Okay, but our conceptual models (mental graven images?) have to take into account those verses which talk about Father and Son also being separate personas (personae?) in Jesus's pre-incarnational and exalted states. This is why the orthodox doctrine is stated in a confusing, complex mess of Greek philosophical terms. Men (and women) who are a lot smarter and a lot more spiritual than me did the best they could with what we have. But this is why I'm more than willing to cut some slack to both sides of the debate. Even as one side condemns me as an idolator, the other as a heretic. I just don't know, which probably gets me vomited out for being neither hot nor cold.

The words: “confusing, complex mess” are a key here.
 

marks

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Okay, but our conceptual models (mental graven images?) have to take into account those verses which talk about Father and Son also being separate personas (personae?) in Jesus's pre-incarnational and exalted states. This is why the orthodox doctrine is stated in a confusing, complex mess of Greek philosophical terms. Men (and women) who are a lot smarter and a lot more spiritual than me did the best they could with what we have. But this is why I'm more than willing to cut some slack to both sides of the debate. Even as one side condemns me as an idolator, the other as a heretic. I just don't know, which probably gets me vomited out for being neither hot nor cold.
God is not to be understood, He is to be known.

Much love!
 
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stunnedbygrace

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They did the best they could and came up with a complex, confusing mess.
Does that sound like something God was in…?
 

farouk

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This is an assumption.

Isaiah 55:10-11
[10]For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
[11]So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

How can scripture be any more clear and plain and you/others won't accept it?? The Word of God (Jesus) was always with God (the Father) and was sent forth from God to accomplish what He/God send it to do. And then, when He ha accomplished the Father's will, He went to the cross, and we hear Him say, "It is finished!" And it didn't end there, because He is risen and sits at the right hand of the Father ....our Great High Priest who ever intercedes for His people!

It doesn't matter how hard you try to dance around the truth, it's still the truth. The scripture in John chapter one uses the same word for God the Father as it does for the Word that was made flesh and dwelt among men. It can't mean two separate things. And plus ....since all things were made by Him (the Word that was made flesh and dwelt among men) and without Him was not anything made that was made .....what you're saying is that a (little "g") "god" is the Word of God and is the Creator who made everything?? Twist, twist, twist ....it will never work and will never be the truth.
@TLHKAJ I really love that passage in Isaiah 55!

The end of 1 Peter 1 is quite similar, quoting as it does from Isaiah 40.
 

stunnedbygrace

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@stunnedbygrace

And those who saw Jesus and did not realize what they were seeing, what does that mean?

"Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away." John 20:15

"And they talked together of all these things which had happened.
And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.
But their eyes were holden that they should not know him." Luke 24:14-16

"I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see." Rev 3:18

And then what is it that people see in those who are the Light now? Do they see a man, or a son of God or...?

"Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." Matt 5:14-16

Well, we don’t see it happening at all today because we are so weakened.
I was just thinking about John’s testing of the spirits/antichrists, that anyone who denies Jesus came in the flesh is an antichrist. But have you ever heard anyone claiming to be a Christian say Jesus did not come in the flesh? I’ve never heard it, not even once. I think he meant denying that God came in the flesh because John said, and He was God.
We have many who deny THAT.
I think that, and also the teaching that it is completely impossible to walk in the Spirit and not sin are antichrist and I think it is satan doing it so that the Holy Spirit will not manifest in US as He did in the apostles and the early church.
 

stunnedbygrace

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And if we look at it very honestly, we are comfortable and it’s sort of okay to go on sleeping to us because the alternative is to have satan come after you hard.

And what would happen to a fellowship that accepted, spoke warmly with and did not put out antichrists who say God did not come in the flesh and it’s impossible to walk in the Spirit and not sin? They would be dangerous reefs and we would become shipwrecked. That’s our current weakness and stagnation, to accept them and even feel they should be allowed to eat and commune with us. To think they are our brothers rather than antichrists. Coddling and welcoming antichrists…how insane is that…??
 

Aunty Jane

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Well, we don’t see it happening at all today because we are so weakened.
I was just thinking about John’s testing of the spirits/antichrists, that anyone who denies Jesus came in the flesh is an antichrist. But have you ever heard anyone claiming to be a Christian say Jesus did not come in the flesh?
No Christian can say that Jesus never came in the flesh.....scripture clearly states that he did.
But who was Jesus before he became a human? Where does the Bible tell us that God was “with” himself...or “beside himself” before part of him came to earth on a rescue mission? How does part of God stay in heaven whilst the other equal part of him becomes a man and dies? Who did Jesus pray to? Who was the one who attested to Jesus as his son when he was baptized? Who resurrected Jesus after those three days he was in a tomb?

If Jesus was God then you have two gods.....trinitarians have three. The Jews never worshipped such a God. The only trinities in existence were in paganism. The Jewish God was “one”... a singular entity. So important was this fact that the Shema was recited to keep reinforcing this truth in a world where people worshiped multiplicities of gods. (Deuteronomy6:4)

Mark 12:28-32....
“One of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that He had answered them well, asked Him, “What commandment is the foremost of all?” Jesus answered, “The foremost is, ‘Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one Lord; 30 and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” The scribe said to Him, “Right, Teacher; You have truly stated that He is One, and there is no one else besides Him”. (NASB)

I’ve never heard it, not even once. I think he meant denying that God came in the flesh because John said, and He was God.
We have many who deny THAT.
Yes, and I am one of them for the simple reason that NO scripture says that God came in the flesh. John 1:1 does not say in Greek, what is biasedly translated into English.

God “sent” his son...he did not send himself. (John 17:3) Jesus came from heaven where he enjoyed life at his Father’s right hand (John 8:23; John 6:62)....a place he had occupied since his creation. He was his Father’s “firstborn”....his “Logos”....the one who always spoke for his God and Father. He is a “servant” of his God like all created beings are. (Acts 4:27) God cannot be his own servant.

Clinging to scripture that you believe contradicts what other scripture says, is doing what many others are doing here. You claim that they are all true but cling only to those that appear to uphold what you want to believe, or twisting them to merge in some way. You are bound up in what you have chosen as your truth, and no one can tell you any different....that is as it should be. We should all have that kind of conviction, but conviction alone doesn’t mean that we embrace the truth.....it is just as easy to embrace a lie if it is told cleverly enough. The world is full of con artists who all rely on that fact.

Speaking from a purely scriptural point of view, the end will not be what most “ Christians” will be expecting. If “few” are on the road to life, that means that the majority are not. (Matthew 7:13-14)...and you can take that to the bank because it was Jesus himself who said so. “Many” are going to offer to Jesus their excuses on that day of judgment and he will reject them outright because they did not love the truth, but took pleasure in the unrighteous teachings that the devil sowed a very long time ago. (Matthew 7:21-23; 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12)

I think that, and also the teaching that it is completely impossible to walk in the Spirit and not sin are antichrist and I think it is satan doing it so that the Holy Spirit will not manifest in US as He did in the apostles and the early church.
The Holy Spirit is operating in a different way today, that is true.....but the choices we make at this juncture are critical because like the people of Noah’s day, we are in a judgment period. We are living in critical times before the final judgment of this world, and our decisions will have lasting consequences....but they are ours to make and God will not make them for us.
It is we who tell God whether we are “sheep” or “goats” by what we accept as truth.

We will stand or fall by those decisions....so we must make them with full knowledge and understanding, for we have no excuse in these ‘critical last days’, not to. (2 Timothy 3:1-5)
The knowledge available to us in this “time of the end” is unparalleled in the history of mankind. (Daniel 12:4) Because of the abundance of that knowledge, many would “cleanse, whiten and refine” themselves in God’s eyes....ridding themselves of the spiritual filth that has become so much a part of the disunited condition of apostate Christendom. This makes his true disciples unique as they are “no part of the world”...satan’s world that is soon to be destroyed. Christ’s true disciples will be a hated minority. (John 15:18-21)

Make of that what you will.....
 

stunnedbygrace

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Where does the Bible tell us that God was “with” himself...or “beside himself” before part of him came to earth on a rescue mission?

Then God said, “Let us make human beings in our image, to be like us.
 

stunnedbygrace

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How does part of God stay in heaven whilst the other equal part of him becomes a man and dies?

I looked, but there was no one to help, I was appalled that no one gave support; so my own arm achieved salvation for me.

28 For anyone who refused to obey the law of Moses was put to death without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Just think how much worse the punishment will be for those who have trampled on the Son of God, and have treated the blood of the covenant, which made us holy, as if it were common and unholy, and have insulted and disdained the Holy Spirit who brings God’s mercy to us. 30 For we know the one who said,

“I will take revenge.
I will pay them back.”

He also said,

“The Lord will judge his own people.”

31 It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God.