This really grabbed me today!

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Aunty Jane

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I appreciate that you're concerned about my soul.
Its the only reason I am here....the truth is the truth and only God will direct those with the right heart to accept it. (John 6:44; 65)
As Paul said....
"For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek. There is the same Lord over all, who is rich toward all those calling on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.” 14 However, how will they call on him if they have not put faith in him? How, in turn, will they put faith in him about whom they have not heard? How, in turn, will they hear without someone to preach? 15 How, in turn, will they preach unless they have been sent out? Just as it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who declare good news of good things!” (Romans 10:12-15)
 

Aunty Jane

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You will not change my mind. God teaches me in my own language. The Holy Spirit guides me in my own language. You must worship only the one true God and in Revelation, Jesus is worshipped. But I’m supposing that’s a mistranslation too, right?
Look up "pro·sky·neʹo"....
 

Lambano

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I agree the doctrine is untenable.
Okay, now I'm curious. You've already stated that you do not view the Holy Spirit as a separate "person", since God is "spirit". I think I understand that. Do you see the Father and the Son as separate persons, or the same person?

Or is it the "same essence or being" part that's untenable?
 

Lambano

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I assume the Nicene fathers added the ὁμοούσιος ("homousios", of the same essence or being) requirement because a) The Bible ascribes to Jesus characteristics which in Judaism can only be ascribed to God (e.g. co-Creator, others); and b) Because if Jesus is a god (or is everything that God is), there can only be one God; Monotheism is non-negotiable.
 

Brakelite

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Does God appoint his equal self to inherit what is already his?
Inheriting the birthright never came automatically to the first born in the OT. The culture from Abraham and his children emerged had such a tradition, but Good went to great pains and lengths to show that the culture was wrong. The firstborn was not the automatically accepted receiver of the birthright. See Cain and Abel. Of Isaac and Ishmael. Jacob and Esau. Who received the he true birthright among the tree 12 sons of Jacob. Rueben? No. Look it up. Who was chosen as the Messiah's ancestor among the 12 sons. Judah. Was his firstborn chosen? No. It was Pharez. But even Judah wasn't granted the family birthright according to scripture. All were appointed. That Jesus was the firstborn had nothing to do with his inheritance... He was appointed because of righteousness. Because He won the moral victory over His Father's enemies... Which is why He was the true Israel, and those whom He appoints because of their obedience, become the children of Israel. It is their obedience which identifies them as children of God... As it has been throughout all ages.
KJV John 1:12
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

KJV 2 Corinthians 2:8-9
8 Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him.
9 For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things.

KJV Romans 5:19
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous

KJV Hebrews 5:8
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered


KJV Romans 6:16
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Therefore, because of righteousness and obedience, the Son of God was appointed heir of all things.

.
 
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Brakelite

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On the contrary, I am highlighting the true relationship of Father and son. I am highlighting what Jesus and the apostles taught about that relationship....not what the apostate church decreed over three hundred years after Christ died.
All the Bible writers were Jewish, so they did not all of a sudden join a new religion, with completely new teachings. Jesus revealed that it was the Pharisees who had altered Jewish perceptions contained in their scripture....liars, just like their "father". (John 8:44)
To the contrary. You are inserting the assumption that despite natural grammar and weird meanings, you are claiming the word begotten does not mean begotten, but created. The angels were created. They were not begotten. Mankind was formed from the dust of the earth, not created, made, but eventually adopted. All children in a sense, but not begotten.
KJV John 1:14
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
A Son in the highest sense.
 

Brakelite

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I assume the Nicene fathers added the ὁμοούσιος ("homousios", of the same essence or being) requirement because a) The Bible ascribes to Jesus characteristics which in Judaism can only be ascribed to God (e.g. co-Creator, others); and b) Because if Jesus is a god (or is everything that God is), there can only be one God; Monotheism is non-negotiable.
The writer of the Book of Hebrews, whom I believe was Paul, opened his epistle with these words...
“God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:” Hebrews 1:1-3

These three verses are comparable with the first three verses of that which John would write 30 or so years later in his Gospel. John said that the Word was with God and was God; also that by the Word were all things made that were made (John 1:1-3). Paul says that the Son is “the brightness” of God’s “glory” and the “express image” [Gr. χαρακτ ή ρ ] of God’s “person”, also that through Him the worlds were made. If both authors were inspired they must be saying the same thing. In other words, Christ being the “express image” of God’s person must be the equivalent of saying He is God.
Strong’s concordance transliterates the Greek word χαρακτ ή ρ as charakter. It appears that originally this was an engraving tool or a marker (engraver) but later came to be known as the impression or engraving itself. It is from where we derive the word character. This is the only place in the Bible where this word is used. This is why there can be no comparison of usage. As do many scholars, Strong describes this word as meaning an exact impression or precise reproduction of persons or things that are original. An impress in wax is not that which did the impressing. A stamp on a coin is not the die that causes the impress. A footprint in the sand is not the foot that made the print. Each is distinct from the other, but there is the closest of relationships between the original and the impression. Without the original there would not be an image. It is also interesting to note that such an impression is always an integral part of the very substance of which it is impressed (like an impression in wax). It is cut (formed) from the substance but remains a part of it.
The Abingdon Bible Commentary of 1929 (compiled by some 66 professors of biblical exegesis, biblical languages, theology, Christian doctrine and church history etc.) has the following to say with reference to the words “express image” (KJV)
“The word translated ‘very image’ means, literally, the stamp cut by a die, and so the impress made upon a seal; thus the phrase signifies that the essence of the divine nature was stamped on the Person of Christ. He was the ‘impress of God‘s essence.”(Professor H. T Andrews, D.D., The Abingdon Bible Commentary, 1929)

So what does it mean to say that Christ is the “express image” (exact impress) of God’s person? In this Scripture (Hebrews 1:3), the Greek word translated “person” is hupostasis.

It is a compound of two other Greek words. These words are hupo meaning literally under (Matthew 5:15, Luke 13:34, Acts 2:5 and Romans 16:20 etc.) and histemi meaning to be stood, stand, standing, set or be established (see Matthew 2:9, 6:5, 18:16, Mark 9:36, John 1:26, and Acts 24:21). We can see therefore that hupostasis means the foundation or under-girding (sub-structure or substance) of cause of being, or, to put it another way, the essential structure of what makes something what it is. Christ therefore is the “express image” (stamp/impress) of the substance/foundation/under-girding of God.

In other words, what God is so is the Son.


In this respect they are one and the same. One though, the Son, is the image. Paul noticeably avoided using words that could make it appear he was saying it was only in outward appearance that Christ was the “express image” of God’s person. One such word is prosopon, meaning the countenance or appearance (i.e. that which is visibly seen, the visage). We can see therefore that the word hupostasis does not refer to exterior appearance. This can be seen even more clearly when we see how the same author uses this word in Hebrews 3:14 “For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence [hupostasis] stedfast unto the end” Hebrews 3:14
This “confidence” is the substance of our hope (it is that of which our hope is made, the foundation or under-girding). As Paul explains as he uses this Greek word for the third time in this epistle “Now faith is the substance [hupostasis] of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” Hebrews 11:1
The substance/confidence (hupostasis) is the ‘stuff’ of which our hopes are made. It is our faith, the foundation or under-girding of our hopes.

Take note of how William Tyndale translated Hebrews 1:3. His was a 16th century translation into English “Which sonne beynge the brightnes of his glory and very ymage of his substance bearinge vp all thinges with the worde of his power hath in his awne person pourged oure synnes and is sitten on the right honde of the maiestie an hye” Hebrews 1:3 Tyndale’s translation

1525 Tyndale’s translation says that the Son is the “very ymage” of God’s “substance”. This is in contrast to the formulators of the KJV who translated hupostasis as “person”. The earlier translation is much clearer to us today than the KJV. It shows exactly what Paul meant by his use of hupostasis. It is referring to God’s very (inner) being (what God is). It is that which makes God God. It is His substructure. Unfortunately today, when we say person, we simply think of this as the entirety of a human being when in fact it can mean the actual self or personality (inner nature/being) of a human being.

Terry Hill.
 

Aunty Jane

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Inheriting the birthright never came automatically to the first born in the OT. The culture from Abraham and his children emerged had such a tradition, but Good went to great pains and lengths to show that the culture was wrong. The firstborn was not the automatically accepted receiver of the birthright. See Cain and Abel. Of Isaac and Ishmael. Jacob and Esau. Who received the he true birthright among the tree 12 sons of Jacob. Rueben? No. Look it up. Who was chosen as the Messiah's ancestor among the 12 sons. Judah. Was his firstborn chosen? No. It was Pharez. But even Judah wasn't granted the family birthright according to scripture. All were appointed. That Jesus was the firstborn had nothing to do with his inheritance... He was appointed because of righteousness. Because He won the moral victory over His Father's enemies... Which is why He was the true Israel, and those whom He appoints because of their obedience, become the children of Israel. It is their obedience which identifies them as children of God... As it has been throughout all ages.
KJV John 1:12
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

KJV 2 Corinthians 2:8-9
8 Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him.
9 For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things.

KJV Romans 5:19
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous

KJV Hebrews 5:8
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered


KJV Romans 6:16
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Therefore, because of righteousness and obedience, the Son of God was appointed heir of all things.
I think you misunderstood my question.....
If Jesus was God, why did he need to "inherit" anything? As God, everything was already his.

Philippians 2:5-11 is a favorite scripture of mine since it has often been presented to me as proof that Jesus is God.....it proves the exact opposite....

"Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

What do we find if we break it up?


"Existing in God's form"...what "form" does God have? according to John 4:24, "God is a spirit"....so in order to be in God's form he too would have been a spirit....all of the inhabitants of heaven are spirits.

"He did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped"....he could have promoted himself with the special powers he had, but he always gave credit to his Father for everything he did and taught.

He humbled himself by leaving his glorious spirit body behind and came to be "in the likeness of men"....like going from being a Prince to a bond servant. He knew that he would have to give his life for the humans he loved so dearly, "by becoming obedient to the point of death" to whom is God obedient?
But he carried out all that was asked of him....he did not hesitate to do his Father's will. (Matthew 26:39)

How was he rewarded for successfully completing his faithful mission? God "exalted him and gave him a name that is above every name"....now if he was God, how can God exalt God and give himself a name higher than what he already has? (Psalm 83:18)

"In the name of Jesus every knee will bow"....in worship? NO! in obeisance because that is what bowing at the knee is. Since Jesus is not God, he cannot accept worship.

"Every tongue will confess that "Jesus is God"? NO! They will confess that he is "Lord", (not another name for God) which is a respectful title because all glory goes to his Father, not to himself.

There is no way to prove that Jesus is anything other than what he called himself....."The Son of God".
 

Lambano

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Here is a riddle: Never answer a fool according to his folly. Always answer a fool according to his folly.
That couplet is rapidly becoming two of my favorite proverbs. :p

Trying to believe two mutually incompatible concepts brings cognitive dissonance, which is mentally destabilizing. You mentioned "gaslighting" several times; this is exactly how gaslighting works. So, of course people choose one narrative and try to explain away the contradictions of the conflicting narrative. You do what you have to do to survive.

But I did see your testimony in the other thread, how the modern liberal church has come loose from its Biblical moorings and left you adrift with nothing meaningful to hang onto. I don't know which is worse, cognitive dissonance or pointless drifting.

Sometimes I have to say, "I just don't know". You might notice that in this and the companion "Why have you abandoned me?" thread, I'm arguing both sides of the issue.
 
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Brakelite

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I think you misunderstood my question.....
If Jesus was God, why did he need to "inherit" anything? As God, everything was already his.

Philippians 2:5-11 is a favorite scripture of mine since it has often been presented to me as proof that Jesus is God.....it proves the exact opposite....

"Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

What do we find if we break it up?


"Existing in God's form"...what "form" does God have? according to John 4:24, "God is a spirit"....so in order to be in God's form he too would have been a spirit....all of the inhabitants of heaven are spirits.

"He did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped"....he could have promoted himself with the special powers he had, but he always gave credit to his Father for everything he did and taught.

He humbled himself by leaving his glorious spirit body behind and came to be "in the likeness of men"....like going from being a Prince to a bond servant. He knew that he would have to give his life for the humans he loved so dearly, "by becoming obedient to the point of death" to whom is God obedient?
But he carried out all that was asked of him....he did not hesitate to do his Father's will. (Matthew 26:39)

How was he rewarded for successfully completing his faithful mission? God "exalted him and gave him a name that is above every name"....now if he was God, how can God exalt God and give himself a name higher than what he already has? (Psalm 83:18)

"In the name of Jesus every knee will bow"....in worship? NO! in obeisance because that is what bowing at the knee is. Since Jesus is not God, he cannot accept worship.

"Every tongue will confess that "Jesus is God"? NO! They will confess that he is "Lord", (not another name for God) which is a respectful title because all glory goes to his Father, not to himself.

There is no way to prove that Jesus is anything other than what he called himself....."The Son of God".
Yes. The Son of God. God begotten. And as a righteous Son was granted the inheritance of all things, even the kingdom. Isn't that glorious that we have a brother seated on the throne of the Almighty, and that we may share in that inheritance.
 

stunnedbygrace

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Okay, now I'm curious. You've already stated that you do not view the Holy Spirit as a separate "person", since God is "spirit". I think I understand that. Do you see the Father and the Son as separate persons, or the same person?

Or is it the "same essence or being" part that's untenable?

I see the Father as the Holy Spirit (God IS Spirit) and I see Jesus as God visible to us in human form, God manifested in human form. God with us on earth. He had to be birthed in a human body to appear to us in a form we could see and relate to and approach and hear with our human ears and see with our human eyes. He wanted us so badly He did this to have us and buy us back from the god of this world, to cover us and protect us again. It was a plan to take back the prisoners of war and to free them and have them know Him and be with Him forever. It’s like…He parachuted into enemy territory to rescue us and planned to die in His human form to free us. He took all the enemy fire and died in His human form so we could be free and live no longer under the power and control of the evil, insane dictator of the world. He knew everything that was going to happen, so it was His plan from the beginning. He always knew what He was going to do and so it says “the Lamb who was slain from the foundation of the world.”

He got around no one may see Me and live by taking on human form. One day, it says, we will see Him as He is. I think this is why it says Jesus will hand over everything again to God. It’s not because Jesus is not God manifested to us but rather because…we will see Him as He really is.

The best story or film of bravery, heroism and sacrifice to save others can not even come close to rivaling our Hero.
 
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Ronald David Bruno

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Its a simple question.
God said "this is my son"
What did he mean by that?

Can you at least see why im confused?
He was speaking of Jesus, a human being, born of a virgin, his physical being, NOT HIS SPIRIT. JESUS' SPIRIT IS ETERNAL AND WAS NOT CREATED. GOD IS SPIRIT.
As Col.1:16-17 says, Jesus is the creator of all things. God emptied Himself and became flesh and dwelt among us.
A High Priest (a man) needed to offer the sacrifice for sins.
The sacrifice had to be physical. Blood needed to be shed.
A man needed to fulfill the Law and Prophets.
He had to demonstrate the power of healing the blind, deaf, diseased and resurrection of the dead - even Himself.
He revealed Himself as the exact expression and essence of God.
Relinquished His glory temporarily as a humble servant, who lived and taught us by example. God washing their dirty feet.
Then He took all the sins of the world upon Himself and died. Only God can accomplish all that He did.
He did not regard this equality with God as something that man would grasp and many still do not. Yet He said I and the Father are one ... He who has seen Me has seen the Father. Did Moses or Abraham ever say that?
 
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stunnedbygrace

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Sometimes I have to say, "I just don't know". You might notice that in this and the companion "Why have you abandoned me?" thread, I'm arguing both sides of the issue.

If you are arguing both sides, you are understanding the proverb and don’t even know it. If you argued one side or the other, you would be answering a fool according to his folly, becoming as foolish as him.
 

Robert Gwin

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15 Christ is the visible image of the invisible God.
He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation,
16 for through him God created everything
in the heavenly realms and on earth.
He made the things we can see
and the things we can’t see—
such as thrones, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities in the unseen world.
Everything was created through him and for him.
17 He existed before anything else,
and he holds all creation together.
18 Christ is also the head of the church,
which is his body.
He is the beginning,
supreme over all who rise from the dead.
So he is first in everything.
19 For God in all his fullness
was pleased to live in Christ,
20 and through him God reconciled
everything to himself.
He made peace with everything in heaven and on earth
by means of Christ’s blood on the cross.

The visible image of God.
Existed before anything was created, even everything in heaven.
Everything was created through Him and for Him.
He holds all of creation together.
He is the beginning AND the firstborn.

How can anyone say He is not God? It flummoxes me.
I do understand that in His human form He had to rely completely on God just as we do. But I’ll be darned if I can understand how anyone can read this and come away saying He is not God…


You do understand Grace, that the beginning was referring to the start of creation correct? Jesus was in fact the beginning of the creation of God Rev 3:14, and everything other than himself was created through him just like you said, and actually for him Col 1:16. The only one who existed before him is his God and Father Jehovah who created him exclusively, as nothing else existed at the time. Virtually impossible to understand, but that is what the Bible really teaches maam.
 

stunnedbygrace

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Trying to believe two mutually incompatible concepts brings cognitive dissonance, which is mentally destabilizing. You mentioned "gaslighting" several times; this is exactly how gaslighting works. So, of course people choose one narrative and try to explain away the contradictions of the conflicting narrative. You do what you have to do to survive.

When we are being gaslighted by men, yes, it brings cognitive dissonance. We see one thing and they say, not so! And we want to believe them, so we see one thing but believe and accept what they say rather than what we saw with our own eyes. That’s the design. The goal is confusion, making you doubt what you see, so an unmasking will not occur and you will see them as they want to be seen by you rather than as they truly are. You actually wind up feeling guilty for having thought they were doing something evil. They have scapegoated you at that point. You take on their guilt for the evil thing they did. It’s insidious, it’s crazy making. It puts you in distress while you don’t even know exactly why you’re distressed, because you don’t yet see their goal IS to bring confusion, doubt and chaos to you inside so they can remain hidden in darkness. If you look at politics and politicians you will absolutely see it being done, and when you do see it, you’ll feel like how you felt after you got gypped by the carny at the carnival. You’ll feel both stupid and relieved that you now see how they do what they do. You’ll start to catch it in people around you too.

When Sarah said, I didn’t laugh, she was trying to gaslight God! Hah!

But with the riddle, never answer a fool, it doesn’t bring cognitive dissonance, it brings light, not gaslight, but true and honest light. And it’s okay to say about Gods parables and riddles, I don’t understand yet, but I know He has said BOTH things, so both are true.

So sometimes you say, yes, but God has ALSO said thus and thus…and you will be the one then who God will give the answer. Not always right away but He will guide you into it, because you are the one honoring and believing ALL His words.
 
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stunnedbygrace

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You do understand Grace, that the beginning was referring to the start of creation correct? Jesus was in fact the beginning of the creation of God Rev 3:14, and everything other than himself was created through him just like you said, and actually for him Col 1:16. The only one who existed before him is his God and Father Jehovah who created him exclusively, as nothing else existed at the time. Virtually impossible to understand, but that is what the Bible really teaches maam.

You are wrong and I will tell you why. The angels were created BEFORE the creation of this world. They were there and sang for joy at the laying of the cornerstone upon which all rests and through Who all is held together - Jesus. It’s all been about Jesus, created by Him, through Him and for Him. All the scriptures and the prophets, which is to say, the whole Bible, tells of Him. Moses wrote of Him. It’s all about Him.

So if the angels were already there and He created the angels, He was there BEFORE the world was created, since He created everything visible to us and invisible to us,
for through him God created everything in the heavenly realms and on earth. He made the things we can see and the things we can’t see— such as thrones, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities in the unseen world. Everything was created through him and for him.
 
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stunnedbygrace

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That is the whole point...you are not listening to John at all....you are listening to deceived translators who were intent on promoting something the rest of the Bible does not teach.

Paul spoke for all of the apostles when he said...1 Corinthians 8:5-6...
"There may be so-called gods both in heaven and on earth, and some people actually worship many gods and many lords. 6 But for us,

There is one God, the Father,
by whom all things were created,
and for whom we live.
And there is one Lord, Jesus Christ,
through whom all things were created,
and through whom we live." (NLT)

John did not hold a different belief.

I worship my Lord. He is God manifested in the flesh. You will never get me to do otherwise. If I give too much honor and praise and worship and trust to my Lord and my God, God will correct me, not you. He is worthy of all honor and praise and is worthy of my worship. He is my God and my Savior and my whole being magnifies Him.
 
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Lambano

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I see the Father as the Holy Spirit (God IS Spirit) and I see Jesus as God visible to us in human form, God manifested in human form. God with us on earth. He had to be birthed in a human body to appear to us in a form we could see and relate to and approach and hear with our human ears and see with our human eyes. He wanted us so badly He did this to have us and buy us back from the god of this world, to cover us and protect us again. It was a plan to take back the prisoners of war and to free them and have them know Him and be with Him forever. It’s like…He parachuted into enemy territory to rescue us and planned to die in His human form to free us. He took all the enemy fire and died in His human form so we could be free and live no longer under the power and control of the evil, insane dictator of the world. He knew everything that was going to happen, so it was His plan from the beginning. He always knew what He was going to do and so it says “the Lamb who was slain from the foundation of the world.”

He got around no one may see Me and live by taking on human form. One day, it says, we will see Him as He is. I think this is why it says Jesus will hand over everything again to God. It’s not because Jesus is not God manifested to us but rather because…we will see Him as He really is.

The best story or film of bravery, heroism and sacrifice to save others can not even come close to rivaling our Hero.
I argued one side in the Abandoned thread; and now I argue this side: I think I understand why the Nicene fathers stated the doctrine the way they did, because the Biblical narrative clearly shows Jesus relating to God the Father as a persona separate from Himself, just as we humans must do. This is not just a consequence of the Incarnation; the Colossians reference in the OP also refers to Father and Son as separate persona before creation. As does the classic Philippians 2:6-11 passage and others. This cannot be denied, and the natural consequence of this are the questions that may seem silly prima facie, but which I cannot dismiss off-hand: Can God abandon God? Does God pray to Himself? Does God sit down at His own right hand? Does God refer to Himself in the 3rd person?

I understand both sides of this argument all too well.
 
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Lambano

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If you are arguing both sides, you are understanding the proverb and don’t even know it. If you argued one side or the other, you would be answering a fool according to his folly, becoming as foolish as him.
Why am I arguing at all? I don't even have a dog in this fight.

That makes me not only a fool, but a nutcase who argues with himself. :confused:o_O
 
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stunnedbygrace

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the Biblical narrative clearly shows Jesus relating to God the Father as a persona separate from Himself, just as we humans must do.

Yes, when He became flesh, and walked as a human, that is true. But all the evidence is hidden in plain sight too that He was and is God manifested in flesh and God with us. If you have seen Me you HAVE seen the Father, so how can you ask Me to show Him to you? Have you been with Me so long yet still don’t know who I am? For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 11Then I looked, and I heard the voices of many angels and living creatures and elders encircling the throne, and their number was myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands. 12In a loud voice they were saying: “Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,to receive power and riches and wisdom andstrength and honor and glory and blessing!”13And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying: “To Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power forever and ever!” As Jesus said “ I Am he,” they all drew back and fell to the ground! Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation.

I could go on and on, because all the law and the prophets speak of Him!