This world and the wicked are going up in a puff of smoke when Jesus come - thus negating Premil

[WPM]

After the Flood it was unable to sustain life as well, no? That is why they had to stay in the ark for months.

And there will be life on earth after the fiery destruction of the Second Coming.

How many wicked survived in Noah's day?
How many wicked survived in Sodom?

You know, in both of these examples, all the elect were immediately and totally rescued and all the wicked were immediately and totally destroyed. So will it be when He appears. All the elect were immediately and totally rescued and all the wicked were immediately and totally destroyed, so will it be when He appears.

It is both the suddenness and the scale of the destruction happening that is enlightening for the end-time Bible student.

 

[Timtofly]

How many wicked survived in Noah's day?
How many wicked survived in Sodom?

You know, in both of these examples, all the elect were immediately and totally rescued and all the wicked were immediately and totally destroyed. So will it be when He appears. All the elect were immediately and totally rescued and all the wicked were immediately and totally destroyed, so will it be when He appears.

It is both the suddenness and the scale of the destruction happening that is enlightening for the end-time Bible student.

You will be enlightened, if you plan on enduring through all the works being burned up.

God can preserve life through fire. Ever read Daniel 3? Ever heard of all the forest fires in California? Are you still alive?

You claim to endure this time of tribulation, certainly every thing burned up will not change your belief system. You just seem so gung ho to endure until the very end of it all.

The tribulation is the time of greatest trouble ever, because all the works on earth were just burned up. Do you not see the extent of your own point of how devastating it will be?

According to you the church is not removed at that point. I agree the church is raptured at the Second Coming the 6th Seal prior to all the trouble people face during the Trumpets and Thunders. You are the one who wants to hang out on earth until Revelation 19.

Jesus and the angels along with the 144k are here after all the works on earth are burned up. The angels are used to it, they are the stars in the firmament. The 144k are sealed, so won't feel the effects like the 3 with the Son back in the OT. They will walk through the fire and destruction just fine along side of their King.

What is the problem of telling it like it is or will be? Should people not be prepared who plan on enduring all this walking though "puffs of smoke"? Is that not the point of this thread?

 

[WPM]

You will be enlightened, if you plan on enduring through all the works being burned up.

God can preserve life through fire. Ever read Daniel 3? Ever heard of all the forest fires in California? Are you still alive?

You claim to endure this time of tribulation, certainly every thing burned up will not change your belief system. You just seem so gung ho to endure until the very end of it all.

The tribulation is the time of greatest trouble ever, because all the works on earth were just burned up. Do you not see the extent of your own point of how devastating it will be?

According to you the church is not removed at that point. I agree the church is raptured at the Second Coming the 6th Seal prior to all the trouble people face during the Trumpets and Thunders. You are the one who wants to hang out on earth until Revelation 19.

Jesus and the angels along with the 144k are here after all the works on earth are burned up. The angels are used to it, they are the stars in the firmament. The 144k are sealed, so won't feel the effects like the 3 with the Son back in the OT. They will walk through the fire and destruction just fine along side of their King.

What is the problem of telling it like it is or will be? Should people not be prepared who plan on enduring all this walking though "puffs of smoke"? Is that not the point of this thread?

The reason you avoid the simple questions is because they expose your doctrine.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Obviously it's after the Millennium and then the final round up allowed for Satan on earth, and the last destruction of armies gathering against God's people on earth by fire. It doesn't say specifically that will be the fire to melt all the earth, but I suppose it would be a good time for it.

Yes, it's after the thousand years. I agree. But, where did Peter indicate that it would be long after Christ's return? The context of what he wrote in 2 Peter 3 does not fit that theory at all. Peter told his readers that they "ought to live holy and godly lives" while they look forward to the day of the Lord (that day will be glorious for believers and terrible for unbelievers). He told them that because he didn't want any of them to experience the Lord's wrath that he described. Why would he tell that to his readers if none of his readers could possibly be alive at that point? The context of what Peter wrote in 2 Peter 3 had to do with the last days leading up to Christ's return (as established in 2 Peter 3:3-4), so why would he warn his readers to pay attention to how they are living their lives in anticipation of that day if that day wouldn't even happen until 1,000+ years after Christ's return?

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

It is implied here that Peter's words should be heeded by all of his readers since the day of the Lord would come unexpectedly like a thief. From his perspective, it the day of the Lord could potentially arrive within the lifetimes of any of his readers going back almost 2,000 years. But, your doctrine makes it so that his words can't possibly apply to anyone who reads them until 1,000+ years after Christ returns. That makes no sense because it takes the passage out of context.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The Lord does not need our help to destroy all the ungodly peoples before He Returns.
But our approval and our praise to Him for doing it, is required. Zechariah 14:9
Note well; that verse plainly states that the Lord, [Jesus] will become King over all the earth....Totally refuting the false AMill belief.

How does it refute our belief that He is now King over all the earth? That is what scripture teaches. After His resurrection and before His ascension He said this:

Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

You don't accept what Jesus said about Himself. You think you have the authority to dictate what it means for Him to be King over all the earth, but you don't. He IS King over all the earth now. Nothing that happens on earth happens without His permission. There isn't one person or thing that He does not have authority over right now.

Ephesians 1:19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength 20 he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.

This is all present tense. Paul said that God the Father raised Christ from the dead and gave Him a position "far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked...in the present age". And he said that God the Father "placed all things under" Jesus's feet while appointing "him to be head over everything for the church". You don't accept what Paul taught, but Amils do.

 

[WPM]

Yes, it's after the thousand years. I agree. But, where did Peter indicate that it would be long after Christ's return? The context of what he wrote in 2 Peter 3 does not fit that theory at all. Peter told his readers that they "ought to live holy and godly lives" while they look forward to the day of the Lord (that day will be glorious for believers and terrible for unbelievers). He told them that because he didn't want any of them to experience the Lord's wrath that he described. Why would he tell that to his readers if none of his readers could possibly be alive at that point? The context of what Peter wrote in 2 Peter 3 had to do with the last days leading up to Christ's return (as established in 2 Peter 3:3-4), so why would he warn his readers to pay attention to how they are living their lives in anticipation of that day if that day wouldn't even happen until 1,000+ years after Christ's return?

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

It is implied here that Peter's words should be heeded by all of his readers since the day of the Lord would come unexpectedly like a thief. From his perspective, it the day of the Lord could potentially arrive within the lifetimes of any of his readers going back almost 2,000 years. But, your doctrine makes it so that his words can't possibly apply to anyone who reads them until 1,000+ years after Christ returns. That makes no sense because it takes the passage out of context.

Excellent post. Irrefutable.

 

[Taken]

Instead of just presenting your personal opinion, discuss the clear Scripture above that shows that the destruction mentioned occurs when (1) Jesus arrives/comes, it emanates from His very "presence," and it is is wholesale and "sudden" - none escape.

Premils have no answer for that. Every aspect of their teaching contradicts this. That is why they cannot talk about these passages - they expose the Premil theory.

False accusation.
The Son of Man was Sent, The Son of Man Returns.
Yes that has been discussed and answered by Premil Believers.
No that does not contradict Premil Beliefs.

Matt 24:
[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Rev 14:
[14] And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
[16] And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

 

[robert derrick]

To "rule" with Christ means to shepherd with Him at the end as He condemns the wicked forever.

A shepherd doesn't rule by destruction. All the people of earth will be His to judge as sheep or goats.

We do not defend the wicked, reward them and then usher them unto the new earth as you do.

The new earth is after His Millennium. It will have no sea like this earth does.

Your future earth is overrun by the wicked as the sand of the sea.

True. Once the Lord's thousand year rule expires, He hands the earth over to Satan one last time. But there won't be any more bloody battles. Just fire of God coming down to destroy them.

Your prophesied christ makes Satan's fire to come down in sight of men, before the Lord's returns to stop him from killing all flesh on earth.

Since you say you will be among the nations judged afterward, then you best get to work doing good for others. Either way, you agree that we are judged by our works to enter into His everlasting kingdom, and not by faith alone.

 

[Taken]

How does it refute our belief that He is now King over all the earth? That is what scripture teaches. After His resurrection and before His ascension He said this:

Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

You don't accept what Jesus said about Himself. You think you have the authority to dictate

No one is Required to Accept your Beliefs and Terms as a Condition to Accepting what Gods Word teaches.

God has always had Supreme Authorrity over His Creations.

Authority TO Rule as KING is one thing.
Exercising That Authority is another thing.

IF Christ Jesus were Ruling This World NOW, He would be Present ON Earth, IN His Kingdom, ON His Throne, and the Whole World would Be IN Belief and Harmony….for a 1,000 year period…
That is Not the case….Now.
And BTW you are the one Teaching Against that!

 

[robert derrick]

Yes, it's after the thousand years. I agree. But, where did Peter indicate that it would be long after Christ's return?

Peter only speaks of the end of the world, not of anything before. Jesus speaks of the end of this age of man's unrighteous rule on earth.

John reveals Satan will also be shut up during the His Millennium, that will expire before the end of this world.

The context of what he wrote in 2 Peter 3 does not fit that theory at all. Peter told his readers that they "ought to live holy and godly lives" while they look forward to the day of the Lord (that day will be glorious for believers and terrible for unbelievers).

Since you say you will be among the nations to be judged by your works, then you best get to work doing good to all you can.

In any case, you acknowledge we are judged by our works, and not by faith alone.

He told them that because he didn't want any of them to experience the Lord's wrath that he described. Why would he tell that to his readers if none of his readers could possibly be alive at that point?

He warns His disciples not to turn back to sinning, so that they will be resurrected to meet Him at His coming, before He sends His plagues on earth.

so why would he warn his readers to pay attention to how they are living their lives in anticipation of that day if that day wouldn't even happen until 1,000+ years after Christ's return

For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

The prophecy is of the day of the Lord's judgment coming on earth.

The day of the Lord is already come, when He came in the flesh, as prophesied by Joel and confirmed by Peter in Acts 2. The day of the Lord remains here in the body of His church. The day of the Lord will also be as a thief at His second coming, and the day of the Lord will finally come to Gog and Magog on earth, after His reign expires on earth.

It is implied here that Peter's words should be heeded by all of his readers since the day of the Lord would come unexpectedly like a thief.

That day has already come to earth, and His own recieved Him not. And some of His own will also be left on earth for hypocrisy at the first resurrection of His church. And all Gog and Magog will be destroyed, when they surround His own beloved city and camp.

That makes no sense because it takes the passage out of context.

You don't know what the day of the Lord is, much less that it is already come to earth, and will remain on earth, until the end of this earth.

Unless of course you want to say the Lord is not come to earth.

 

[robert derrick]

This world and the wicked are going up in a puff of smoke when Jesus come​

Jesus is already come. Not condemn the world, but to save them that would believe. He'll do so a second time.

The wish for all destruction of flesh, by making fire come down out of heaven in the sight of his worshippers, is that of the last great false christ.

 

[WPM]

A shepherd doesn't rule by destruction. All the people of earth will be His to judge as sheep or goats.


The new earth is after His Millennium. It will have no sea like this earth does.


True. Once the Lord's thousand year rule expires, He hands the earth over to Satan one last time. But there won't be any more bloody battles. Just fire of God coming down to destroy them.

Your prophesied christ makes Satan's fire to come down in sight of men, before the Lord's returns to stop him from killing all flesh on earth.

Since you say you will be among the nations judged afterward, then you best get to work doing good for others. Either way, you agree that we are judged by our works to enter into His everlasting kingdom, and not by faith alone.

Wolves that aim to harm the sheep will be destroyed by a shepherd. When Jesus comes He will destroy the wicked. You have no answer to that as all your avoidance around the Op proves. Your avoidance has become a pattern of your engagement. That is your MO. All is left now is a white flag.

 

[WPM]

Peter only speaks of the end of the world, not of anything before. Jesus speaks of the end of this age of man's unrighteous rule on earth.

John reveals Satan will also be shut up during the His Millennium, that will expire before the end of this world.


Since you say you will be among the nations to be judged by your works, then you best get to work doing good to all you can.

In any case, you acknowledge we are judged by our works, and not by faith alone.


He warns His disciples not to turn back to sinning, so that they will be resurrected to meet Him at His coming, before He sends His plagues on earth.



For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

The prophecy is of the day of the Lord's judgment coming on earth.

The day of the Lord is already come, when He came in the flesh, as prophesied by Joel and confirmed by Peter in Acts 2. The day of the Lord remains here in the body of His church. The day of the Lord will also be as a thief at His second coming, and the day of the Lord will finally come to Gog and Magog on earth, after His reign expires on earth.


That day has already come to earth, and His own recieved Him not. And some of His own will also be left on earth for hypocrisy at the first resurrection of His church. And all Gog and Magog will be destroyed, when they surround His own beloved city and camp.


You don't know what the day of the Lord is, much less that it is already come to earth, and will remain on earth, until the end of this earth.

Unless of course you want to say the Lord is not come to earth.

The end of the world is the second coming. That is what Peter shows. You keep adding your supposed future millennium into text after text where it does not belong. That is calked adding unto Scripture. That is forbidden by God.

 

[robert derrick]

Yes, it's after the thousand years. I agree. But, where did Peter indicate that it would be long after Christ's return?

Since Jesus' second coming is before the thousand years, then Peter's ending is a thousand years after His second coming.

Peter only speaks of the end of this world, not about anything before it.

 

[WPM]

Since Jesus' second coming is before the thousand years, then Peter's ending is a thousand years after His second coming.

Peter only speaks of the end of this world, not about anything before it.

Where you seem to get confused every time is building your theological edifice upon a notable preconceived error: that Rev 20 is yet future. That is the sole grounds of your thesis. But you have zero corroboration for that because every second coming passage we look at is climactic. It involves a general resurrection and a general judgment. It does not allow for 2 resurrection days or 2 judgment days.

 

[robert derrick]

Wolves that aim to harm the sheep will be destroyed by a shepherd.

True. He doesn't destroy the sheep with the wolves, nor the sower with tares with the wheat.

All people alive one earth, when the King sits on the throne of David, will be His people.

He will then divide rightly between sheep and goats, tares and wheat.

When Jesus comes He will destroy the wicked.

True. First without mercy in Judea, and then execute the goats still among the nations.

 

[WPM]

True. He doesn't destroy the sheep with the wolves, nor the sower with tares with the wheat.

All people alive one earth, when the King sits on the throne of David, will be His people.

He will then divide rightly between sheep and goats, tares and wheat.


True. First without mercy in Judea, and then execute the goats still among the nations.

You espouse so much error in such a short space that it is hard to know where to start. There is so much Scripture you must dismiss or ignore in order to make such speculations. Christ is Israel's king - true Israel, not apostate Christ rejecting Israel. He is reigning on David's throne since the resurrection as king, Lord and Redeemer.

It clearly states that. Psalms 132:12 says, "The LORD hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne."

What you need to see is that Peter is referring to this in Acts 2:29-36, saying: “Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; he seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ” (Acts 2:25-31).

The whole context here is expressly speaking about the One that would assume David's throne. It is speaking about the only One that could gloriously take it. Christ was that man. He was of course the promised offspring of David (the fruit of his loins). None else would take such a final place of authority. Christ was indeed the fulfilment of the Davidic promise. He now reigns supreme.

Christ already came physically and revealed the kingdom of God to Israel. The problem was, it just wasn't what they expected. The fact is the Messianic kingdom is here. Messiah has come. The kingdom is found everywhere Christ reigns in sovereign control. The kingdom is here on this earth now in the hearts of God's people (the Israel of God).

Peter shows us that Psalm 110:1 is currently being fulfilled since Christ destroyed the power of the grave, and ascended to the right hand of majesty on high. No objective Bible student could fail to see the focus and message of this narrative. This reading is concentrated upon the victory of the resurrection of Christ nearly 2,000 years ago and the resulting current kingly Messianic reign of Christ at “the right hand of God exalted” in heaven. It confirms that Israel’s Messiah now sits enthroned upon David’s throne, and locates the timing of His assumption of the same to after “the resurrection of Christ.” As Messiah, Christ fulfilled every human demand of Him, thus rightfully assuming the kingship of Israel through His impeccable life, His atoning death and His glorious resurrection.

 

[Timtofly]

The reason you avoid the simple questions is because they expose your doctrine.

Your questions only expose your belief system. They are based on your interpretation and private opinions.

 

[WPM]

Your questions only expose your belief system. They are based on your interpretation and private opinions.

I didn't think you would address them. You cannot. To do so would make you an Amil.

 

[robert derrick]

The end of the world is the second coming. That is what Peter shows.

And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the age?

The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are the angels.

As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this age.

The end of this age is not the end of the world. Prophecy if the lord's coming again to earth, is of the end of this age of unrighteous men ruling on earth.

Peter speaks of the end of this heaven and earth, which will pass away with fervent heat.

The new heaven and earth created by God will not end and pass away. It will be the endless age of God dwelling with man in New Jerusalem.

Your prophecy is false. Thank God.