This world and the wicked are going up in a puff of smoke when Jesus come - thus negating Premil

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WPM

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He won't. He doesn't lie and break His own prophecy to rule them.

If He were prophesying to kill them all instead, as you wish, then no, He would not be condemned for doing so.

However, according to His prophecy, He will be justified in killing all the armies in Judea, and executing all the goats, as well as a thousand years later burning up all Gog and Magog.

I was referring to the actual text you quoted. Revelation 2:25-27: And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end [Gr. telos], to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule [Gr. poimaino] them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be ‘broken to shivers’ [Gr. suntribo]: even as I received of my Father.”

The unindoctrinated mind will have no difficulty understanding the truth being presented here. It's very clear and unambiguous. We are looking add the total wholesale destruction of the wicked. That is what awaits the ungodly when Jesus comes.

The coming of Christ is not to high-five sin and mollycoddle sinners. It is to judge sinners and banish sin from the earth forever. Premil ushers countless mortal rebels unto the new earth, but Scripture shows they are all totally destroyed. The new earth is incorrupt! Only the incorrupt can possess it. Your argument conflicts with clear and repeated Scripture.

There is no reward awaiting these proud Christ-rejecters. When a pot is broken with an iron rod it is destroyed, not subjugated. It's state changes completely and it does not continue in its prior state. When therefore the wicked are “broken,” “dashed to pieces,” “cut off,” then “the wicked shall be no more” at the second coming. This is not an exercise in rulership, subjugation, or discipline; but rather their total obliteration; thus, the meaning of the analogy of the rod and the pottery. The vivid picture painted is of the potter destroying an unwanted useless vessel.

The original Greek in Revelation 19:15 states he should smite [Gr. patasso ho ethnos kai autous poimaino autous] the nations, and shepherd them with a rod of iron.”

You need to see what the word poimaino means and how similar kindred words are interpreted elsewhere in Scripture. The word poimaino in this reading which is rendered “rule” in the AV, carries the consistent meaning of shepherd and shepherding in Scripture.

The picture here is of a Shepherd with a rod. However, this is NO ordinary Shepherd with no ordinary rod. The Shepherd here is Christ, and He is coming in His wrath at the end of this age to deal with the wicked thus the significance of the rod of iron. He is a jealous Shepherd who is finally coming to destroy those that have rejected Him. The shepherding is clearly associated with the FINAL separation.

There is no sense or mention of, or allowance for, survivors, as you imagine. All the wicked are destroyed. There is no one left to inherit this supposed future millennium full of sin and sinners, dying and crying, decay and disease.

Premils ignore the crucial words suntribo (to break to shivers) in Revelation 2:25-27 and patasso (to smite) in Revelation 19:15.

The same Shepherd who will comfort His sheep (the elect) will also destroy the goats (the wicked). This teaching is taken from Psalm 2:1-12. See what it is saying: “Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.Thou shalt break [Heb ra` a`] them with a rod of iron; ‘thou shalt dash them in pieces’ [Heb naphats] like a potter's vessel. Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.”

The Hebrew word ra` a` means to spoil: literally, by breaking to pieces; figuratively, to make (or be) good for nothing. The Hebrew word naphats here derives from a primitive root; to dash to pieces, or scatter.

The picture here is of a Shepherd with a rod. However, this is NO ordinary Shepherd with NO ordinary rod. The Shepherd here is Christ, and He is coming in His wrath at the end of this age to deal with the wicked thus the significance of the rod of iron. He is a jealous Shepherd who is finally coming to destroy those that have rejected Him. The shepherding is clearly associated with the FINAL separation.

There is no sense or mention of, or allowance for, survivors, as you imagine. All the wicked are destroyed. There is no one left to inherit this supposed future millennium full of sin and sinners, dying and crying, decay and disease.

The Lord encounters only 2 types of people when He comes – saved or lost, sheep or goats. The sheep enter into their eternal inheritance; the goats receive their eternal punishment. Nothing could be simpler. You invent some 3rd group of humans that are too righteous to be destroyed at the second coming, yet too wicked to be rescued, yet Premil argue among themselves who they actually are. The reality is: they don't exist.

Nowhere in any of these passages is there any insinuation of a 1,000 years shepherding (or ruling) over the nations -as Premil alleges. What is more, Nowhere in Rev 20 is there any mention of (1) a rod of iron, (2) Christ on earth, (3) and therefore Christ ruling on earth with a rod of iron for 1,000 years. You will only find that in the Premil textbooks.
 
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Timtofly

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You obviously have nothing on Amil , so you resort to lies lately. I will take this as a sign that you are putting up the white flag.
Do you not make up stuff about billions of humans overrunning a future millennium?

Are you denying your own argument?

I will take your post as a sign, your OP is a bunch of garbage you cannot even acknowledge you are spewing.
 

WPM

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according to His prophecy, He will be justified in killing all the armies in Judea, and executing all the goats, as well as a thousand years later burning up all Gog and Magog.

You and Premils "boasting of breaking everyone and everything into shivers on earth" 1000 years after the second coming, "would make Hitler blush. And you speak such hateful blasphemy in the name of Christ."
 
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Timtofly

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LOL. YOU said that, not him. I guarantee that he does not "think ill of God and His redemptive work on the Cross", so for you to say that shows how judgmental you are and how clueless you are.
His post spoke ill of God. Did someone steal his computer and make that post?
 

WPM

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Do you not make up stuff about billions of humans overrunning a future millennium?

Are you denying your own argument?

I will take your post as a sign, your OP is a bunch of garbage you cannot even acknowledge you are spewing.

You cannot face the facts because it interferes with your beliefs. There are a number of wicked gathered from the four corners of the earth "as the sand of the sea." That is a lot of people. Where does this wicked multitude come from - under the cabbage plant?
 

WPM

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His post spoke ill of God. Did someone steal his computer and make that post?

You are obviously extremely frustrated that you have no rebuttal for Amil. You are forced to invent ridiculous arguments in order to undermine Amil. I will take that as a compliment. You have nothing to pin on Amil!
 

Timtofly

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Peter says that when the day of the Lord Jesus' advent comes "as a thief in the night", there won't be seven more minutes of anything going on down here, let alone "7 years of tribulation" ;)
Where?

Is that an extra verse in your Bible?

Did life go on after the Flood? Did Peter also say life stopped after the Flood?

Peter did say that a day with the Lord is 1,000 years, and then said the Day of the Lord comes. So Peter explained when a thousand years comes, this time period will begin with a fiery destruction, just like the water of the Flood. No verse claims life stops at the thief in the night moment.
 

Timtofly

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You cannot face the facts because it interferes with your beliefs. There are a number of wicked gathered from the four corners of the earth "as the sand of the sea." That is a lot of people. Where does this wicked multitude come from - under the cabbage plant?
You cannot face the fact your post spoke ill of God.
 

Timtofly

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You are obviously extremely frustrated that you have no rebuttal for Amil. You are forced to invent ridiculous arguments in order to undermine Amil. I will take that as a compliment. You have nothing to pin on Amil!
I was accused of lying. I am not frustrated. Amil are when all they can do is accuse posters of lying.

I did not accuse you of lying. I accused your post, and many posts from you that speak ill of God.
 

WPM

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I was accused of lying. I am not frustrated. Amil are when all they can do is accuse posters of lying.

I did not accuse you of lying. I accused your post, and many posts from you that speak ill of God.

I never speak ill of God. That is a blatant lie, and you know that. Remember who is behind lies. You have nothing on Amils so you have to bring false accusation. You know who the false accuser is.
 

robert derrick

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You have no answer for the sacred text, so you duck around it.

I was referring to the actual text you quoted. Revelation 2:25-27: And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end [Gr. telos], to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule [Gr. poimaino] them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be ‘broken to shivers’ [Gr. suntribo]: even as I received of my Father.”
Since you reject having actual part in powerfully wielding the rod of iron over the nations with Him, then you won't be there anyway, no matter if it is only around Judea as prophesied, or all flesh on earth, as you wish it were prophesied.
 

robert derrick

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You and Premils "boasting of breaking everyone and everything into shivers on earth"
That used to be your boast, unto you backed off, and slunk away to behind the lines.

Sense you won't be using any rod of iron alongside the Lord, then you won't be ruling with Him, then you won't be resurrected with His saints.

1000 years after the second coming,
Is with fire of God from heaven for Gog and Magog. The rule of rods expire with the thousand year Millennium of Christ and His saints.
 

WPM

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That used to be your boast, unto you backed off, and slunk away to behind the lines.

Sense you won't be using any rod of iron alongside the Lord, then you won't be ruling with Him, then you won't be resurrected with His saints.


Is with fire of God from heaven for Gog and Magog. The rule of rods expire with the thousand year Millennium of Christ and His saints.

Oh. So, it is OK with you for God to annihilate billions of wicked with fire (as the sand of the sea) 1000 years after the second coming, but not to smash them to shivers with a rod of iron at the second coming?
 
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robert derrick

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Oh. So, it is OK with you for God to annihilate billions of wicked with fire (as the sand of the sea) 1000 years after the second coming, but not to smash them to shivers with a rod of iron at the second coming?
You're problem is thinking what's ok with us. It's not.

God is justified to fulfill all His prophecies, whether to condemn or to save. He prophesies consuming all Gog and Magog with fire, and so He will. Who am I to judge it?

He also prophecies to rule with rod of iron over the nations, after destroying the armies and the goats. His resurrected saints with be there to judge and rule with Him, including using the rod of irons with power.

Why should I have a problem with that?

First it's a matter of what he prophesies doing. Secondly it's a matter of us doing so with Him, if His prophecy includes us.

We will use with power the same rod of iron as He at His coming again. We will not be sending fire down upon Gog and Magog, but Him alone.

Your main hypocrisy is calling for the Lord to destroy all flesh with rod of iron, at His second coming, but you refuse to lift a rod to help. Therefore, since you refuse to rule with Him, then you will not be in His resurrection to do so.

I don't. I will help in any way I can with the Lord by His will and power, to destroy the armies around Judea, and to execute the goats. It's just and righteous altogether, for the sake of the innocent, and I do the same today, if it is in my power.
 

WPM

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Since you reject having actual part in powerfully wielding the rod of iron over the nations with Him, then you won't be there anyway, no matter if it is only around Judea as prophesied, or all flesh on earth, as you wish it were prophesied.

You need to see what the word poimaino means and how similar kindred words are interpreted elsewhere in Scripture. The word poimaino in this reading which is rendered “rule” in the AV, carries the consistent meaning of shepherd and shepherding in Scripture. There is no imaginary 1000 rule with a rod of iron.

Show me that in Rev 20?
 

WPM

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You're problem is thinking what's ok with us. It's not.

God is justified to fulfill all His prophecies, whether to condemn or to save. He prophesies consuming all Gog and Magog with fire, and so He will. Who am I to judge it?

He also prophecies to rule with rod of iron over the nations, after destroying the armies and the goats. His resurrected saints with be there to judge and rule with Him, including using the rod of irons with power.

Why should I have a problem with that?

First it's a matter of what he prophesies doing. Secondly it's a matter of us doing so with Him, if His prophecy includes us.

We will use with power the same rod of iron as He at His coming again. We will not be sending fire down upon Gog and Magog, but Him alone.

Your main hypocrisy is calling for the Lord to destroy all flesh with rod of iron, at His second coming, but you refuse to lift a rod to help. Therefore, since you refuse to rule with Him, then you will not be in His resurrection to do so.

I don't. I will help in any way I can with the Lord by His will and power, to destroy the armies around Judea, and to execute the goats. It's just and righteous altogether, for the sake of the innocent, and I do the same today, if it is in my power.
No. It is because you have zero answer to the climactic biblical detail pertaining to the second coming and the wholesale destruction it brings to the wicked. All you can do is avoid the evidence that exposes your claims. You have ducked around #101 because it totally exposes your thesis. To "rule" with Christ means to shepherd with Him at the end as He condemns the wicked forever. We do not defend the wicked, reward them and then usher them unto the new earth as you do. Your future earth is overrun by the wicked as the sand of the sea.
 

Phoneman777

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Where?

Is that an extra verse in your Bible?
2 Peter 3:10, where Peter says in the day Jesus comes as a thief, the heavens will pass away, the elements melt with heat, and the Earth and everything in it will burn up - IOW, a planet totally incapable of sustaining life.
Did life go on after the Flood? Did Peter also say life stopped after the Flood?
God's plan was to have life continue after the Flood - however, His plan is to end all life on this planet as we know it and only populate an Earth made new with those in the Resurrection of life.
Peter did say that a day with the Lord is 1,000 years, and then said the Day of the Lord comes. So Peter explained when a thousand years comes, this time period will begin with a fiery destruction, just like the water of the Flood. No verse claims life stops at the thief in the night moment.
It didn't take 1,000 years for the Flood to complete the destruction of the Earth, so we shouldn't expect it should take that long when Jesus comes as a thief - rather, we should assume both destructions should be similar in process and result.
 
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Timtofly

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2 Peter 3:10, where Peter says in the day Jesus comes as a thief, the heavens will pass away, the elements melt with heat, and the Earth and everything in it will burn up - IOW, a planet totally incapable of sustaining life.

God's plan was to have life continue after the Flood - however, His plan is to end all life on this planet as we know it and only populate an Earth made new with those in the Resurrection of life.

It didn't take 1,000 years for the Flood to complete the destruction of the Earth, so we shouldn't expect it should take that long when Jesus comes as a thief - rather, we should assume both destructions should be similar in process and result.
After the Flood it was unable to sustain life as well, no? That is why they had to stay in the ark for months.

And there will be life on earth after the fiery destruction of the Second Coming.