Those who believe an enemic God just "let things happen"

[ChristianJuggarnaut]

Should answer these questions;

Did God foresee anything? What we look like, what we act like?

What does it mean that Jesus was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world?

If we are the image of God, how then did random chance determine our image?

 

[River Jordan]

First of all, it's not me who is insisting that God created life by letting the earth bring it forth, it's scripture. If you think of that as "enemic" [sic], then your problem is with scripture, not me.

Did God foresee anything? What we look like, what we act like?

I don't understand what that has to do with God creating as scripture says (by letting the earth bring forth). Can you elaborate?

What does it mean that Jesus was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world?

Are you talking about 1 Peter 1? It means exactly what it says...God knew what would happen even before He created the world.

If we are the image of God, how then did random chance determine our image?

If you think "in the image of God" refers to our physical bodies, do you also believe that God has reproductive organs?

 

[ChristianJuggarnaut]

1. The implication of my interpretation would allow both spontaneous or gradual generation with God as the author of both. Whereas, your point of view limits God to simply observing a phenomenon and exclaiming "hmm, that's weird."

2. Again, this is a concept you either pretend to not understand or actually do not comprehend. If our image, personality, disposition, outlook, tendencies, were known by God before we were "created" then random chance is not a factor in our lives. Design becomes the only mitigating factor in our existence. For example, we process the world through our senses, sight for example. Did God know we would see? If you say yes, then you have to assume we were designed with eyes.

So, God knew what a lamb was before life existed. Again, random chance cannot exist. The law of contradiction applies. If there was an idea of what a lamb is before the world began, then the evolution of a lamb cannot be by random occurrence.

3. The idea of image of God includes everything. God is a Spirit so He has no body, however, after the incarnation God has a body and reproductive organs. So then, if God transcends time and the fullness of the Godhead dwells bodily in Jesus Christ then we are made in the image of Christ (God)

 

[River Jordan]

So from your perspective "God knows everything" is the same as "God controls everything", correct? And if God controls everything, then nothing can happen on its own or by random chance. Before I go on with this, I want to make sure that's what you're saying here.

And if you believe "the image of God" refers to our physical bodies, what do our physical bodies have that isn't present in other primates?

 

[ChristianJuggarnaut]

The bible tells us that God knows almost everything. I use the term almost because God explains why He doesn't know certain things. He does not control our choices or at least in the way that we would define controlling.

You are trying to define things on your terms so you can play word games. If you would like to discuss Calvinism, Armenianism, and Molinism, start a new thread and I would be happy to add my two cents. You know exactly the point I am making concerning your claims of evolutionary biology and origin of universe science.

Yes, I know how to spell "anemic." What I need to learn is to not trust this predictive text as much as I do.

 

[River Jordan]

You know how I know you've lost this argument? You start dodging questions.

If God knows everything (outside of our choices) does that mean He also controls everything (outside of our choices)?

And if you believe "the image of God" refers to our physical bodies, what do our physical bodies have that isn't present in other primates?

 

[aspen]

If my dogs could write, they would compose a book of inspired writing all about me - they would write about their love and devotion and their understanding of my disappearance during the day and my sometimes erratic feeding schedule and why they have to be in their crates sometimes and the writing would be cherished. How much less are we than God? How much greater is His love for us?

The Bible is inspired by our love of God and our striving to know Him. It is written from our perspective. It is written from our limitations and aspirations. It is an accurate snapshot of our heart - the good and the bad and the moderate. It is our biography and our understanding of God. It is unique because it puts God before us - most human writing puts us before everything else.

However, it is, and only can be a view from a clouded glass. It is not a magic book or a science book. It is a book of the heart.

 

[ChristianJuggarnaut]

I know how you know that I lost this argument. You think it ended when your majesty chimed in.

I answered your image question. If you cannot tell the difference in image between humans and primates, I suggest you go back to school. Way back. Kindergarten. I also gave you the example of Christ. It is Him that you will one day stand before and you will see that He is indeed the image we are made in.

I do not claim to know the depths of God's control over everything. It would stand to reason though that due to the existence of miracles, that He can alter His control according to His own will. I do not believe in the watch maker God. I am aware that you do not either. To you the watch appears and God fashions it best He can.


Aspen,

That brought a tear to my eye. I thought of the rainbow bridge and how Bear is waiting there for me.

Not really. It seems a little silly (and a bit presumptuous I might add) to compare the Bible to a book your dogs may write about you. Perhaps they would write how easy you are to con. You work and pay the bills and buy the food and all they have to do is pretend to be excited when you come home. What a schmuck, they might write.

 

[aspen]

Aspen,
That brought a tear to my eye. I thought of the rainbow bridge and how Bear is waiting there for me.

What a great thought!

Not really.

Aw....you had me going

It seems a little silly (and a bit presumptuous I might add) to compare the Bible to a book your dogs may write about you.

Guess you've never had a good dog.

Perhaps they would write how easy you are to con. You work and pay the bills and buy the food and all they have to do is pretend to be excited when you come home. What a schmuck, they might write.

Well, if they were Fallen like humans, I have no doubt they would write something like that. Of course that has nothing to do with my point, but you already know that.

 

[River Jordan]

I answered your image question. If you cannot tell the difference in image between humans and primates, I suggest you go back to school. Way back. Kindergarten. I also gave you the example of Christ. It is Him that you will one day stand before and you will see that He is indeed the image we are made in.

I guess we'll just disagree on that. You think "In the image of God" refers to our physical bodies, I believe it refers to the fact that we have a soul.

I do not claim to know the depths of God's control over everything. It would stand to reason though that due to the existence of miracles, that He can alter His control according to His own will. I do not believe in the watch maker God. I am aware that you do not either. To you the watch appears and God fashions it best He can.

No, to me God creates a universe that works, so when He commands it to bring forth things, it does. From what I can tell, you however believe that God creates a universe where when He commands it to bring forth things, it doesn't and He has to step in and do it Himself. Kinda makes you wonder why He bothered to command it to bring forth in the first place if He was just going to do it Himself. :blink:

 

[ChristianJuggarnaut]

I believe in the image of God refers to many things. All-encompassing. That's somewhat different than your label.

I am a little shocked, but pleased that for the first time you admit to being a creationist. In the past when I asked if you were a creationist you answered no emphatically and proceded to go on a tirade. Good job Wormwood, second hand lion and others. It's working!!

So this changes the entire dynamic of our conversation and can even be described as a break through of sorts.

If God creates it to work, and it works, I define that as precisely God doing it Himself. Now, I recall that you believe in the physical resurrection of a dead Jesus, so here is an instance where He changed His creation for His purpose.

Are we on the same page?

It seems to me that eventually you are going to have to deal with random chance. You seem to avoid it. I can see why. However, I am proud of the strides you are making. Even if the strides have always been and you are just explaining or admitting them.

 

[River Jordan]

I believe in the image of God refers to many things. All-encompassing. That's somewhat different than your label.

What other things besides our physical bodies and souls do you believe it refers to?

I am a little shocked, but pleased that for the first time you admit to being a creationist. In the past when I asked if you were a creationist you answered no emphatically and proceded to go on a tirade. Good job Wormwood, second hand lion and others. It's working!!

So this changes the entire dynamic of our conversation and can even be described as a break through of sorts.

In the broadest sense of the term, we're all creationists here. When I use the term "creationist", I'm usually using it in its more common manner, i.e., fundamentalists who deny modern science's findings in favor of some sort of young-earth creationism, "Biblical creationism", or "intelligent design creationism".

If God creates it to work, and it works, I define that as precisely God doing it Himself.

Indirectly I suppose. I mean, if I make a robot that harvests wheat and then I command it to harvest farmer Johnson's wheat, is it accurate to say "River Jordan harvested Johnson's wheat field"?

Now, I recall that you believe in the physical resurrection of a dead Jesus, so here is an instance where He changed His creation for His purpose.

Are we on the same page?

Sure.

It seems to me that eventually you are going to have to deal with random chance. You seem to avoid it. I can see why. However, I am proud of the strides you are making. Even if the strides have always been and you are just explaining or admitting them.

I don't know why you think I've been avoiding random chance. I don't even know what point you're trying to make about it.

 

[ChristianJuggarnaut]

Ok, so I can't really think of an attribute that would not ultimately be included in either body or soul. So yes, we are created in His image in both body and soul.

It's interesting that you used the wheat harvesting robot as an example as that would be my (our) point exactly. According to Darwinian theory, how would you suppose the farmer's wheat gets harvested. As the robot creator, with a goal in mind, how do you account for random chance. You wouldn't. You would design it that way. So, indirectly you see to it that the wheat is harvested, but it is accomplished by your design. Not by chance.

Not too difficult of a concept really.

 

[aspen]

i believe we were created in Gods image based on our ability to relate to one another.

 

[BlackManINC]

Should answer these questions;

Did God foresee anything? What we look like, what we act like?

What does it mean that Jesus was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world?

If we are the image of God, how then did random chance determine our image?

God knew who you were before you were even conceived in the womb, because life is in the spirit, not in the flesh. If God can declare the end of the world from the very beginning, then he can logically also easily declare the end of our personal lives from the very beginning. When it says that Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world, it is referring to the creation account. It simply means that before God even laid the foundations of the earth, he was foreordained to be slain for Adams sin that God already knew he would commit. Contrary to what the heretical theistic evolutionists will tell you, there was no such thing as "random chance" in the creation account. Everything was made exactly as God intended it to be from the start. Before the fall, everything was made perfect.

If we are talking about the all knowing all powerful God of the Bible, then there is no "chance" with him. God is all knowing and doesn't leave anything to "chance". Whatever God declares will happen is 100% guaranteed to be fulfilled. For all you people who think that God isn't ultimately in control, just look at the book of Exodus. None of that would have happened as it played out had God not have hardened the pharaohs heart in the first place. He turned him over completely to his own lusts, his own delusions. Paul calls this the "strong delusion", stating that the same thing will happen in the end of days. God will harden the hearts of the heathen, to ensure that they believe "a lie". So for any Christian complaining about everything that is happening in the world, just be still, and know that God is who he says he is. He will exalt himself among the heathens, and in the earth.

The Bible states that God is pure spirit, meaning no one has seen God in the flesh, or his image apart from Jesus Christ, his only begotten son. So when it says that we were made in the image of God it is obviously not referring to our physical appearance, but to the spirit. Like I said, life is in the spirit, and it is the spirit that makes us special from everything else in creation. This is why God gave us dominion over this earth, because we are his personal representatives.

 

[River Jordan]

Ok, so I can't really think of an attribute that would not ultimately be included in either body or soul. So yes, we are created in His image in both body and soul.

And I can't think of any human body part that isn't present in other organisms. So either I have to believe that those organisms were at least partially also created in God's image, or that "in God's image" refers to something other than our physical bodies. That we have a soul while no other organism does makes it pretty clear IMO.

It's interesting that you used the wheat harvesting robot as an example as that would be my (our) point exactly. According to Darwinian theory, how would you suppose the farmer's wheat gets harvested. As the robot creator, with a goal in mind, how do you account for random chance. You wouldn't. You would design it that way. So, indirectly you see to it that the wheat is harvested, but it is accomplished by your design. Not by chance.

Funny you should mention that. Are you aware that when faced with highly difficult design obstacles, engineers use evolutionary computation to solve the problem? In a nutshell, they set up evolutionary algorithms (that are modeled after biological evolution) and allow them to run on their own until they come up with a design that overcomes the obstacle.

CLICK HERE to see a whole bunch of articles and books about how engineers have been using evolutionary algorithms to create new designs. And of course the most relevant part to our discussion is that random chance is an integral part of these processes. So yeah...random chance and design towards a specified end are not mutually exclusive.

 

[ChristianJuggarnaut]

This may actually be a profitable discussion for once. I will attempt to look at your links though it may take a little longer than the usual response time. I will look because I do have a link that addresses this subject that I will break my own rule and post afterward.

In the meantime, perhaps you could think on and/or answer what design obstacle an almighty God would possibly face where evolutionary algorithms would be needed in order to overcome. I realize that wasn't your point, but inevitably is it the point?