Thoughts on Church Unity

[Marymog]

Just as Paul explained the "one body" analogy, the foot is not the eye, nor should it try to be, nor should they see thing the same or have the same perspective.

But what you see in the church today, is not division, it is the dead speaking.

Paul also goes on to say that women should be silent in church, meaning "the bride" is not to speak, but the Groom only. But you have not heard this in plain language, and therefore all things seen askew. And if I tell you that the leaders in the church should not speak or lead, you do not believe me and are offended. But why should the dead have a voice?

Scott,

All the parts (should) still work as One. The Church is NOT one. It is CLEARLY divided.

What is "dead speaking"? I have never heard that term.

You are denying that ALL OF THIS is not division?
Some Christians say abortion is murder some say it isn't.
Some say same sex marriage is acceptable most say it isn't.
Some say woman can be pastors/preachers/priest some say they can't.
Some believe in the real presence some say there is no such thing.
Some say baptism saves you others say it is just a public statement.
Some recognize the authority of the church they belong to and others say they don't need any authority over them.

Since everything I just listed is the OPPOSITE of unity....it MUST be division.

Confused Mary

 

[Marymog]

Just as Paul explained the "one body" analogy, the foot is not the eye, nor should it try to be, nor should they see thing the same or have the same perspective.

But what you see in the church today, is not division, it is the dead speaking.

Paul also goes on to say that women should be silent in church, meaning "the bride" is not to speak, but the Groom only. But you have not heard this in plain language, and therefore all things seen askew. And if I tell you that the leaders in the church should not speak or lead, you do not believe me and are offended. But why should the dead have a voice?

Hi Scott,

Some Christians say abortion is murder some say it isn't.
Some say same sex marriage is acceptable most say it isn't.
Some say woman can be pastors/preachers/priest some say they can't.
Some believe in the real presence some say there is no such thing.
Some say baptism saves you others say it is just a public statement.
Some recognize the authority of the church they belong to and others say they don't need any authority over them.
ALL of them use scripture to back up their beliefs.

We OBVIOUSLY are not ONE.

Can you explain how "we are one in spite of our differences"? That statement seems to be an oxymoron to me.

Curious Mary

 

[ScottA]

All the parts (should) still work as One. The Church is NOT one. It is CLEARLY divided.

You are denying that ALL OF THIS is not division?
Some Christians say abortion is murder some say it isn't.
Some say same sex marriage is acceptable most say it isn't.
Some say woman can be pastors/preachers/priest some say they can't.
Some believe in the real presence some say there is no such thing.
Some say baptism saves you others say it is just a public statement.
Some recognize the authority of the church they belong to and others say they don't need any authority over them.

Since everything I just listed is the OPPOSITE of unity....it MUST be division.

That would certainly be the world view. But, if we are of Christ, we are not of the world.

What is "dead speaking"? I have never heard that term.

The world is dead: "passing away", and so too, is the flesh. So, when Paul made his statement of women being silent in church, he was not referring to females, but of the dead, being different than the bride of Christ. Again, this is so that the only word that is spoken in church comes from the Groom, whom has not left us orphans to squabble among ourselves. In fact, among those who are born again of the spirit of God, it is no longer we who live, but Christ who lives in us, and it is not we who speak, but the Holy Spirit. But if we allow our old self to speak and to act, which should have died when Christ came to us, then the dead speak. This is carnal and of the world...but the kingdom is not of the world, and the world passes away, because it is divided. But we who have denied ourselves and live as Christ lives, are One, but many members of one body.

So, those whom are divided are of the world, and those whom are One are of Christ.

 

[ScottA]

Can you explain how "we are one in spite of our differences"? That statement seems to be an oxymoron to me.

It is as I said in post #20.

Do the chefs see eye to eye with the waiters, or do the jockeys always agree with the horse trainers, or do players never argue with coaches? If they are one restaurant, and of one horse, or one team, why is it so hard to see that the church is one body if they are equally divers?

 

[pia]

Contrary to the opinion that the "man of God" can be any Christian without distinction, Scripture itself will not allow such an interpretation

1 Jn 2:27...."But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning ALL things, AND IS TRUE, and is NOT a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.".... Will have to leave it there, you either understand this or you do not !

 

[Job]

Hi Job,

What is a Spiritual Church? I have never heard of one.

Curious Mary

The Spiritual Church is made up of individuals who are doing the Will of the Father. Their hearts and minds are united in the same beliefs. There are no divisions in their ranks. They are perfectly joined in their desire to accomplish the Will of the Lord.

Because of the strict policies set forth in the scriptures, many will not make it into this Church.

"For many are called but few are chosen".

The Spiritual Church is all about the spiritual condition of the heart.

l

 

[Helen]

Excellent post @Job ....
I believe that kind of commitment comes when a child of God gets to the place of saying " not me, but Christ".. " I must decrease and Him increase ."
While we desire to ' stay alive' we are feeding the flesh man. When we want our way over our brothers way and Gods way...we feed the flesh man.
Hurt feelings are again, the flesh man.
The true Church members seek the benefit of others over their own.
Years ago when we were young Christians , it was called " Hidden behind the cross."

 

[epostle1]

1 Jn 2:27...."But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning ALL things, AND IS TRUE, and is NOT a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.".... Will have to leave it there, you either understand this or you do not !

John is writing to his children, 1 John 1 HE IS TEACHING THEM because he is "the man of God". If the Holy Spirit teaches these individual believers directly, THEN THEY DON'T NEED JOHN! " John is writing to the whole church of the time, not individuals...which you have received from Him..." is delivered by way of authorized clergy. Visible manifestations are extremely rare. Manifestions or visitations are fine, but do they serve to up build the Body? It seems to me you are your own pastor in a church of one. There is something wrong with your interpretation.

Isaiah 35:8, Isaiah 54:13-17 – this prophecy refers to the Church as the Holy Way where sons will be taught by God and they will not err. The Church has been given the gift of infallibility when teaching about faith and morals, where her sons are taught directly by God and will not err. This gift of infallibility means that the Church is prevented from teaching error by the power of the Holy Spirit (it does not mean that Church leaders do not sin!)

Acts 9:2; 22:4; 24:14,22 – the early Church is identified as the “Way” prophesied in Isaiah 35:8 where fools will not err therein.

John 14:26 – Jesus promises that the Holy Spirit would teach the Church (the apostles and successors) all things regarding the faith. This means that the Church can teach us the right moral positions on such things as in vitro fertilization, cloning, surrogate mothers and other issues that are not addressed in the Bible. After all, these issues of morality are necessary for our salvation, and God would not leave such important issues to be decided by us sinners without His divine assistance.
The Biblical Church - Scripture Catholic

 

[epostle1]

It is as I said in post #20.

Do the chefs see eye to eye with the waiters, or do the jockeys always agree with the horse trainers, or do players never argue with coaches? If they are one restaurant, and of one horse, or one team, why is it so hard to see that the church is one body if they are equally divers?

That's like going to a baseball game with no umpires.
Worse, it's like going to a baseball game and all the players are umpires.

 

[mjrhealth]

THEN THEY DON'T NEED JOHN!

Amen and that is teh problem teh religious have with Jesus, if you have Jesus you dont need religion, so Ho Hum

 

[mjrhealth]

this prophecy refers to the Church as the Holy Way where sons will be taught by God and they will not err

and so we have mens religion all born of man and all in error, Funny about that.

 

[pia]

. The Church has been given the gift of infallibility when

I may actually throw up this time. Good grief..... If your church was so infallible, how could it possibly be in the state it is and has been in?

 

[Marymog]

That would certainly be the world view. But, if we are of Christ, we are not of the world.
The world is dead: "passing away", and so too, is the flesh. So, when Paul made his statement of women being silent in church, he was not referring to females, but of the dead, being different than the bride of Christ. Again, this is so that the only word that is spoken in church comes from the Groom, whom has not left us orphans to squabble among ourselves. In fact, among those who are born again of the spirit of God, it is no longer we who live, but Christ who lives in us, and it is not we who speak, but the Holy Spirit. But if we allow our old self to speak and to act, which should have died when Christ came to us, then the dead speak. This is carnal and of the world...but the kingdom is not of the world, and the world passes away, because it is divided. But we who have denied ourselves and live as Christ lives, are One, but many members of one body.
So, those whom are divided are of the world, and those whom are One are of Christ.

Hi Scott,

Women being silent in church is 1Corinthians 14:34 and the next line (35) says "If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home". Once we put that passage in context your interpretation of it falls apart and is not accurate.

When I meet someone who says they are a Christian how do I figure out if they are actually divided and of the world or One with Christ? How do you, Scott, personally discern them?

Mary

 

[Marymog]

It is as I said in post #20.
Do the chefs see eye to eye with the waiters, or do the jockeys always agree with the horse trainers, or do players never argue with coaches? If they are one restaurant, and of one horse, or one team, why is it so hard to see that the church is one body if they are equally divers?

Hi Scott,

Your analogy is pretty good except one flaw.

If the chefs and the waiters, the jockeys and the trainers or the players and coaches have a disagreement someone with authority has the final say.

If any of them disagree with that authority and they continue to do things their way, they are fired. They can go start their own restaurant or get their own racing horse or start their own team and make their own rules and be their own authority but it doesn't negate the Truth of the original authority. Just because you change the rules to the way YOU personally like them doesn't change The Truth.

The church is not one. It is CLEARLY divided because many Christians reject all authority or have decided that their denomination has authority.

Mary

 

[Marymog]

The Spiritual Church is made up of individuals who are doing the Will of the Father. Their hearts and minds are united in the same beliefs. There are no divisions in their ranks. They are perfectly joined in their desire to accomplish the Will of the Lord.

Because of the strict policies set forth in the scriptures, many will not make it into this Church.

"For many are called but few are chosen".

The Spiritual Church is all about the spiritual condition of the heart.

Job,

Thank you for your answer.

That description kind of sounds like a denominational church to me. All the individual members of a denominational church believe they are doing the Will of the Father and they are (supposed to be) united in the same beliefs. Their policies (doctrines, rules etc) are based on what scripture says. I am willing to bet if you asked them they would agree with you that the spiritual condition of their heart is very important to them also.

I guess the biggest difference is the denominational church member recognizes their churches authority when interpreting scripture and a Spiritual church member recognizes themselves as their own authority when interpreting scripture.

I am having a tough time figuring out one part of your statement. Who decides what the "strict policies" from scripture are? If you are all "individuals" with no leadership, who decides?

Respectfully, Mary

 

[epostle1]

I may actually throw up this time. Good grief..... If your church was so infallible, how could it possibly be in the state it is and has been in?

You are confusing infallibility (teaching without error) with impeccability (living without sinning). Infallibility comes from Jesus, not popes or councils. It's a gift from God, not a possession of the Church.
There have always been crisis's and corruption of one kind or another in the Church. But that's sin, not doctrine on faith and morals, which is infallible.

Infallibility can only be invoked when the teaching is about faith and morals, must flow from the deposit of faith handed down from the Apostles, must be proclaimed from the Chair of Peter, and must be addressed to the universal church. It is a negative charism from God that prevents error. Jesus said to Peter, "...whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven." Heaven cannot bind an error.

The Church is always in a state of renewal because the challenges from the world and within the church are constantly changing. For example:
The Council of Trent instituted severe reforms in the practice of granting indulgences, and, because of prior abuses, "in 1567 Pope Pius V canceled all grants of indulgences involving any fees or other financial transactions" (Catholic Encyclopedia). This act proved the Church’s seriousness about removing abuses from indulgences. (abuses are not doctrines) Myths about Indulgences | Catholic Answers

The sex abuse crisis peaked in the 60's and 70's. It was the worst crisis in the history of the Church. Severe reforms have dropped the rate of legitimate allegations to where it is unmatched by any institution, church or professional organization as the statistic prove.
Chirograph of His Holiness Pope Francis for the institution of a Pontifical Commission for the Protection of Minors (22 March 2014) | Francis

The state the Church is in now? Is this what you mean?

 

[bbyrd009]

do priests forgive sins? for whatever reason i can't seem to get an answer to this.

and history seems to be replete with examples of bad doctrine, too, doesn't it? It would so refreshing to hear a Catholic actually confront some of this. Where do you find confession of your sins to some guy in a closet and penance in Scripture? and in the same breath you want to assert infallible doctrine, essentially a demand for everyone else to believe it, too?

 

[epostle1]

That would certainly be the world view. But, if we are of Christ, we are not of the world.
The world is dead: "passing away", and so too, is the flesh. So, when Paul made his statement of women being silent in church, he was not referring to females, but of the dead, being different than the bride of Christ. Again, this is so that the only word that is spoken in church comes from the Groom, whom has not left us orphans to squabble among ourselves. In fact, among those who are born again of the spirit of God, it is no longer we who live, but Christ who lives in us, and it is not we who speak, but the Holy Spirit. But if we allow our old self to speak and to act, which should have died when Christ came to us, then the dead speak. This is carnal and of the world...but the kingdom is not of the world, and the world passes away, because it is divided. But we who have denied ourselves and live as Christ lives, are One, but many members of one body.

So, those whom are divided are of the world, and those whom are One are of Christ.

I don't know how you can talk about being One in Christ while you demonize your own roots. Everything you believe that is true came from the Catholic Church.

How do " nondenominationalists" , which has it's own distinct theology, and often boast that they are “separated from any denomination,” obey God’s command that Christians “all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment” (1 Cor. 1:10)?

Jesus said that the unity of Christians would be objective evidence to the world that He had been sent by God (John 17:20-23). How can the world see an invisible "unity" that exists only in the hearts of believers?

What the Bible says is to reject those who cause divisions, which is the very essence of the onset of Protestantism: schism, sectarianism, and division. It is Protestantism that departed from the historic Church, which is indefectible and infallible (see also 1 Tim 3:15).

The one true Church is and always will be in harmony with God’s inspired revelation, the Bible. Thus, we reject any form of Protestantism, because they fail this test.

You guys are forced to dispense with the Early Church Fathers, and historic Christianity in general, because Protestantism isn't in it. That truth is uncomfortable so you insulate yourselves from that reality and reconstruct Christianity on "Bible alone", a principle Martin Luther pulled out of thin air because he lost a debate.

Read more at Dialogue with a Calvinist: Was Paul a "Lone Ranger"?

 

[bbyrd009]

I don't know how you can talk about being One in Christ while you demonize your own roots.

imagine how we feel

 

[Job]

Job,

Thank you for your answer.

That description kind of sounds like a denominational church to me. All the individual members of a denominational church believe they are doing the Will of the Father and they are (supposed to be) united in the same beliefs. Their policies (doctrines, rules etc) are based on what scripture says. I am willing to bet if you asked them they would agree with you that the spiritual condition of their heart is very important to them also.

I guess the biggest difference is the denominational church member recognizes their churches authority when interpreting scripture and a Spiritual church member recognizes themselves as their own authority when interpreting scripture.

I am having a tough time figuring out one part of your statement. Who decides what the "strict policies" from scripture are? If you are all "individuals" with no leadership, who decides?

Respectfully, Mary

The Spiritual Church is not a "physical church". It exists in the spiritual realm. None of the members know one another nor do they know they are members of this church. Membership is based on the contents of ones heart. Since God is the only One that can see into the heart, He is the One who chooses it's members. He is the only authority within this church.

j