Thoughts on Church Unity

[Marymog]

The Spiritual Church is not a "physical church". It exists in the spiritual realm. None of the members know one another nor do they know they are members of this church. Membership is based on the contents of ones heart. Since God is the only One that can see into the heart, He is the One who chooses it's members. He is the only authority within this church.

Hi Job,

I understand that part; it's not a physical church. I guess I didn't make myself clear and I apologize.

You said that there are "strict policies". That infers that you know what they are. Would you share those policies with me before I become a member of the Catholic Church? I thought the RCC was "The Church", however, based on this new revelation I could be wrong.

Respectfully, Mary

 

[Job]

You said that there are "strict policies". That infers that you know what they are. Would you share those policies with me before I become a member of the Catholic Church?

I posted some of those policies in the Catholic thread. If what I posted there doesn't give you pause, nothing I say here will make any difference.

And just so you know. I don't claim to be a member of the Spiritual Church. I just know some of the guidelines.

You wanted a definition of the Spiritual Church, I gave it and that's as far as I'm going. I won't debate the issue.

Later...

k

 

[Marymog]

I posted some of those policies in the Catholic thread. If what I posted there doesn't give you pause, nothing I say here will make any difference.
And just so you know. I don't claim to be a member of the Spiritual Church. I just know some of the guidelines.
You wanted a definition of the Spiritual Church, I gave it and that's as far as I'm going. I won't debate the issue.
Later...

Thank you Job. I am not asking you to debate. I am just asking you to share those policies. I don't think that is unreasonable.

There are currently 101 pages in the Catholic thread. I did a search of that thread and was unable to find what you are talking about. (I probably didn't use the right search words )

Would you PLEASE let me know what post number it was so I can go to it directly and read it? I want to make sure I am not making a mistake by converting to the RCC.

Respectfully, Mary

 

[Helen]

Job said:- "The Spiritual Church is not a "physical church". It exists in the spiritual realm. None of the members know one another nor do they know they are members of this church. Membership is based on the contents of ones heart. Since God is the only One that can see into the heart, He is the One who chooses it's members. He is the only authority within this church. "
Well said @Job

I wonder why it is so hard to understand...it is so clearly laid out in the NT.

 

[ScottA]

That's like going to a baseball game with no umpires.
Worse, it's like going to a baseball game and all the players are umpires.

That is a good analogy, but it would be more like:

It would be nice if both teams and all the players were on home plate singing Kumbaya, but that is not how the game is played, and not how you get home.

 

[Job]

Job said:- "The Spiritual Church is not a "physical church". It exists in the spiritual realm. None of the members know one another nor do they know they are members of this church. Membership is based on the contents of ones heart. Since God is the only One that can see into the heart, He is the One who chooses it's members. He is the only authority within this church. "
Well said @Job

I wonder why it is so hard to understand...it is so clearly laid out in the NT.

Thanks.

k

 

[Job]

Would you PLEASE let me know what post number it was so I can go to it directly and read it?

The posts start on page 8.

m

 

[ScottA]

Women being silent in church is 1Corinthians 14:34 and the next line (35) says "If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home". Once we put that passage in context your interpretation of it falls apart and is not accurate.

Not at all. It is the husband who portrays Christ, therefore the message is the same - Christ has the final say, and directs and makes things clear for the bride. Male and female, He made us.

When I meet someone who says they are a Christian how do I figure out if they are actually divided and of the world or One with Christ? How do you, Scott, personally discern them?

That is not part of our job description. It is Christ whom carries the sword that divides, and if we are His we do not take up the sword, but Christ in us who takes it up...the sword of the "spirit."

 

[Marymog]

The posts start on page 8.

Thank you Job for your quick and direct response.

I looked at all your post from page 8-17 and this is the only post from you that contained a passage from scripture:
19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back,
20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

Is that one of the policies?

Mary

 

[Job]

Thank you Job for your quick and direct response.

I looked at all your post from page 8-17 and this is the only post from you that contained a passage from scripture:
19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back,
20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

Is that one of the policies?

Mary

You have a nice day Mary.

k

 

[ScottA]

Hi Scott,

Your analogy is pretty good except one flaw.

If the chefs and the waiters, the jockeys and the trainers or the players and coaches have a disagreement someone with authority has the final say.

If any of them disagree with that authority and they continue to do things their way, they are fired. They can go start their own restaurant or get their own racing horse or start their own team and make their own rules and be their own authority but it doesn't negate the Truth of the original authority. Just because you change the rules to the way YOU personally like them doesn't change The Truth.

The church is not one. It is CLEARLY divided because many Christians reject all authority or have decided that their denomination has authority.

Mary

Indeed, there is One whom has authority and the final say, the Lord Jesus Christ.

It is not the church that is divided. Nor are there any denominations in the church, only branches. It is the world that is divided, and if the church has let the world in, it is not the church in the church, but the world in the church that is divided. "Beware the light in you is not darkness."

 

[Marymog]

That is not part of our job description. It is Christ whom carries the sword that divides, and if we are His we do not take up the sword, but Christ in us who takes it up...the sword of the "spirit."

My dear Scott,

YOU are the one that said, "those whom are divided are of the world, and those whom are One are of Christ". How do you know that? Is it part of your job description to know that? You have me very confused.

Your woman being silent in church interpretation of scripture is bizarre and twisted... IMO. How do you know you are right? For 2,000 years that verse has NEVER been interpreted that way by Christianity.

Mary

 

[Marymog]

You have a nice day Mary.

Hi job,

do I need to look further than post #17?

Mary

 

[Job]

Hi job,

do I need to look further than post #17?

Mary

Yes Mary, you do. You need to search the scriptures for yourself. Put your trust in the Lord and He will never steer you wrong. Receiving wisdom from the Lord is much more edifying then having everything spoon fed to you.

Have a nice day Mary.

h

 

[ScottA]

I don't know how you can talk about being One in Christ while you demonize your own roots. Everything you believe that is true came from the Catholic Church.

My roots are sin, and I do go and sin no more.

How do " nondenominationalists" , which has it's own distinct theology, and often boast that they are “separated from any denomination,” obey God’s command that Christians “all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment” (1 Cor. 1:10)?

If all do not speak the same, we do not all speak the same. But those who speak the same, speak the same because they are One.

Jesus said that the unity of Christians would be objective evidence to the world that He had been sent by God (John 17:20-23). How can the world see an invisible "unity" that exists only in the hearts of believers?

He did not say "unity" but "love" (one another), but I understand your point. What you describe is the world seeing the world as being lost, which it is. But the world within or without the church can still see the truth and the love among the remnants. "Seek and you shall find."

What the Bible says is to reject those who cause divisions, which is the very essence of the onset of Protestantism: schism, sectarianism, and division. It is Protestantism that departed from the historic Church, which is indefectible and infallible (see also 1 Tim 3:15).

Yes, and so we do. Therefore, we reject those whom chose to follow a man, instead of the spirit of God: the rock, instead of the Rock.

The one true Church is and always will be in harmony with God’s inspired revelation, the Bible. Thus, we reject any form of Protestantism, because they fail this test.

So, then you protest the protesters, and do not even know that they/we rejected you first...which then became a movement in God's good time.

You guys are forced to dispense with the Early Church Fathers, and historic Christianity in general, because Protestantism isn't in it. That truth is uncomfortable so you insulate yourselves from that reality and reconstruct Christianity on "Bible alone", a principle Martin Luther pulled out of thin air because he lost a debate.

We dispense of nothing, but have always been hidden in Christ, our Rock.

 

[Marymog]

Yes Mary, you do. You need to search the scriptures for yourself. Put your trust in the Lord and He will never steer you wrong. Receiving wisdom from the Lord is much more edifying then having everything spoon fed to you.
Have a nice day Mary.

Hi Job,

Every day is nice for Mary. How about you?

You are the one who said starting with post #8. If there is a post AFTER post #8 that clarifies your belief I just want to know what post it is? I have done a word search and can't find it. If you are confident in your statements and beliefs please share them with me so I don't' make the mistake of joining the wrong church. If you want me to go to heaven I need to know this truth of scripture you speak of.

Mary

 

[ScottA]

YOU are the one that said, "those whom are divided are of the world, and those whom are One are of Christ". How do you know that? Is it part of your job description to know that? You have me very confused.

Christ is One, just as God is One. But one who is One, does not turn to himself and ask or wonder if he is not one. He knows, because he looks to himself and sees only One.

But the one who looks to himself and those around him and sees division, that person is not One. That person is in the world and sees the world.

So, then, do not be of the world and of the division, but of the Oneness of God and Christ. But beware, in the world Satan roams about as an angel of light.

Your woman being silent in church interpretation of scripture is bizarre and twisted... IMO. How do you know you are right? For 2,000 years that verse has NEVER been interpreted that way by Christianity.

The true bride hears His voice. All in God's good timing.

And so He said to his disciples, "“I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now."

 

[Marymog]

Christ is One, just as God is One. But one who is One, does not turn to himself and ask or wonder if he is not one. He knows, because he looks to himself and sees only One.
But the one who looks to himself and those around him and sees division, that person is not One. That person is in the world and sees the world.
So, then, do not be of the world and of the division, but of the Oneness of God and Christ. But beware, in the world Satan roams about as an angel of light.The true bride hears His voice. All in God's good timing.And so He said to his disciples, "“I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now."

Thank you Scott.

What you are saying makes absolutely ZERO sense to me and doesn't match up with what scripture says but if you believe it....it must me true. One is One and I am one and you are one and Jesus is one and God and Christ are One and the true bride hears his voice.

I hope I am that true bride...what ever that means.

Mary

 

[ScottA]

Thank you Scott.

What you are saying makes absolutely ZERO sense to me and doesn't match up with what scripture says but if you believe it....it must me true. One is One and I am one and you are one and Jesus is one and God and Christ are One and the true bride hears his voice.

I hope I am that true bride...what ever that means.

Mary

What I have told you does match the scriptures. But you are seeing the parable, and I am explaining it. Perhaps it does not make sense because you have not considered that the subject and the object of all parables are not the same, but different.

 

[amadeus]

That is not in the Bible. It doesn't mean we don't need teachers. It means the deposit of faith has been given to the Apostles, and by default, their successors. "let no man teach you" means let no man insert their opinions into divine revelation given by God to Jesus who has given HIS VERY OWN AUTHORITY as commissioned to the Apostles and their successors.

Actually what @pia said

Whatever happened to being lead, and taught by The Holy Spirit so that no man will have any need that man teach him...?

...did come from scripture:

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26

"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." Rom 8:14

Matthew 28:
18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

"therefore" is a conjunctive verb, joining HIS AUTHORITY in His commissioning the Apostles to baptize and teach. It does not mean any individual can rely on the Holy Spirit to teach themselves apart from the historic CHURCH.

Private revelation is not the issue here. If the Holy Spirit speaks to anyone privately, then such revelation is intended for that person, and nobody else. The exception is an acknowledged prophet in the community, but prophecy is not teaching, as Paul makes distinctions.
Ephesians 4:11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,

Arguing from the scriptures is a good thing, but when anyone presumes that his present interpretation is the correct or even the only one, is it necessarily right? You speak of the historic church as if that solves the problem, but of course it does not for anyone who supports a different definition of the what the historic church is than you do.

Your quote of Eph 4:11 is a very good one, but who are these ministers and where are they? Are they not people ordained by God? Of course the Catholics go through an ordination process, but why would or should someone who is not Catholic accept that as being God's ordination? Is no other ministering person outside the formal Roman Catholic organization ordained by God as one of those ministers as per Eph 4:11?

Who is the man of God in 2 Timothy 3:16-17?

There is the relationship: the Scriptures are a tool for "teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness," but who is to use this tool for these purposes? That is, who has the authority to teach, reproof, correct, and train others in righteousness? The "man of God" has this authority.
But, who is the "man of God?" You may wish to claim this title for yourself as well, but a short survey of Scripture's use of the title will reveal that this, too, is a privileged title that cannot be simply taken upon oneself:

Moses - "This is the blessing with which Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death." (Deut. 33:1)

"Then the people of Judah came to Joshua at Gilgal; and Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenizzite said to him, 'You know what the LORD said to Moses the man of God in Kadesh-barnea concerning you and me.'" (Josh. 14:6)

The Angel of the Lord - "Then the woman came and told her husband, 'A man of God came to me, and his countenance was like the countenance of the angel of God, very terrible; I did not ask him whence he was, and he did not tell me his name...' Then Manoah entreated the LORD, and said, 'O, LORD, I pray thee, let the man of God whom thou didst send come again to us, and teach us what we are to do with the boy that will be born.'" (Jud. 13:6, 8)

Samuel - "The servant answered Saul again, 'Here, I have with me the fourth part of a shekel of silver, and I will give it to the man of God, to tell us our way.'" (1 Sam. 9:8)

Elijah - "And she said to Elijah, 'What have you against me, O man of God? You have come to me to bring my sin to remembrance, and to cause the death of my son!'" (1 Kings 17:18)

Elisha - "And she went up and laid him on the bed of the man of God, and shut the door upon him, and went out... When Elisha came into the house, he saw the child lying dead on his bed." (2 Kings 4:21, 32)

David - "According to the ordinance of David his father, he appointed the divisions of the priests for their service, and the Levites for their offices of praise and ministry before the priests as the duty of each day required, and the gatekeepers in their divisions for the several gates; for so David the man of God had commanded." (2 Chr. 8:14)

St. Timothy - "But as for you, man of God, shun all this; aim at righteousness, godliness, faith, love, steadfastness, gentleness." (1 Tim. 6:11)

Contrary to the opinion that the "man of God" can be any Christian without distinction, Scripture itself will not allow such an interpretation, insisting that the "man of God" is a figure of authority, either commissioned by God directly through Divine Intervention (such as Moses or the Angel), or appointed by another holder of authority (such as Samuel, David, Elisha, and St. Timothy).

You have done well with providing scriptures identifying men of God, but the list is certainly not an exhaustive list. It does not include every man of God during the physical time period that scripture was being written not for other times.

Elijah challenged the prophets of Baal to call down the fire of God on a sacrifice and they failed. Would this mean that any man who bears the title of a man of God who is not able to call down God's fire has also failed?