Timing of the abomination of desolation

[Truth7t7]

You overlooked the disciples' very first question:

Matthew 24:3
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

"These things" is not referring to the second coming, but to the temple and its destruction in verses 1 and 2.

I Disagree with your 70AD preterist interpretation of Matthew Chapter 24, the events described are future unfulfilled

The 70AD destruction of the temple played absolutely no part in fulfillment of Matthew 24, none

Jesus spoke of a symbolic destruction of the temple, not a 70AD literal destruction as you suggest

The temple was the Lord's body, as the pharisees looked at a literal temple, just as you "Wrong"

John 2:19-22KJV
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

 

[covenantee]

Matthew 24:14 The Gospel of the Kingdom will be preached throughout the earth to all nations and then the end will come.
Not happened yet.

Happened in the first century.

Romans 1:8
Romans 16:26
Colossians 1:6
Colossians 1:23

 

[Truth7t7]

Happened in the first century.

Romans 1:8
Romans 16:26
Colossians 1:6
Colossians 1:23

I Disagree

When Jesus walked the earth there were peoples around the globe that hadn't heard the words of the gospels salvation, your 70AD preterist interpretation fails

 

[covenantee]

I Disagree with your 70AD preterust interpretation of Matthew Chapter 24, the events described are future unfulfilled

The 70AD destruction of the temple played absolutely no part in fulfillment of Matthew 24, none

Jesus spoke of a symbolic destruction of the temple, not a 70AD literal destruction as you suggest

The temple was the Lord's body, as the parishes looked at a literal temple, just as Randy Kluth

John 2:19-22KJV
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

I and the witness of history disagree with your futurist interpretation of the Olivet discourse.

There is not one recognized Christian expositor in all of Church history prior to the 19th century who futurized the entirety of the Olivet discourse.

Not one.

 

[covenantee]

I Disagree

When Jesus walked the earth therefore peoples around the globe that hadn't heard the words of the gospels salvation, your 70AD preterist interpretation fails

You'll have to take it up with Paul.

He disagrees with you.

 

[Truth7t7]

I and the witness of history disagree with your futurist interpretation of the Olivet discourse.

There is not one recognized Christian expositor in all of Church history prior to the 19th century who futurized the entirety of the Olivet discourse.

Not one.

"It will be a future generation" that will be eyewitness of the signs that precede the future second coming

1.) What is near even at the doors, the future second coming of Jesus Christ

2.) What is the day and hour no man knows, the future second coming of Jesus Christ

"Your 70AD preterist interpretation fails"

Matthew 24:33-36KJV
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

 

[covenantee]

"It will be a future generation" that will be eyewitness of the signs that precede the future second coming

1.) What is near even at the doors, the future second coming of Jesus Christ

2.) What is the day and hour no man knows, the future second coming of Jesus Christ

"Your 70AD preterist interpretation fails"

Matthew 24:33-36KJV
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Your futurist fallacy is disproven by both Scripture and history.

 

[Davy]

There were no Christians in Jerusalem when the temple was destroyed in 70 AD. They had all fled in 66 AD, fulfilling Matthew 24:15-16.

Nope. The Matthew 24:15-16 Scripture is for the very end of this world, not 70 A.D.

 

[Davy]

The point is, it was not part of the temple itself, which was given specific instructions and dimensions while still in the tabernacle/tent stage. So to add external buildings, or out-buildings, and then call it part of the temple is outrageous.

It is, in fact, a big retaining wall that you speak of. Anything beyond that is playing the dice with God's general instructions about what the temple building was supposed to be.

Point is, there are STILL TODAY huge stones atop of one another at the temple mount. Debate over.

 

[Randy Kluth]

That's not literal. Jesus is not coming to literally eat with people. Also, the first and second comings are physical. Christ arrives here in a physical body. Any non-physical comings are not "comings" like the 1st and 2nd ones. This includes when Christ spoke to Paul.

Yes, the example I gave you of Jesus coming to dine with you isn't literal. That was my whole point! It was not referring to a literal, physical "coming." But the point is, it was in fact described as a "coming."

And that's how I think Jesus "comes" in judgment all through history, when his word shows up to cast a judgment on some specific activity. He comes to reward us, he comes to judge us, he comes to act in our present lives, and not just at the eschaton.

That was my point. When Israel became so rebellious against Rome that Rome sent a 2nd army to Jerusalem, Jesus showed up in the form of his word of judgment. He was executing his Father's wish, to bring an end to the form of religion that Jesus had already discarded at the cross.

And so, there are non-literal comings of Jesus in history in which he brings God's word of judgment. I think that's what the quotes I gave you from Rev 2-3 suggested, and also the quote from Luke 17.30...

“It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed. 31 On that day no one who is on the housetop, with possessions inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything.

This happened in 70 AD because it is very unlikely that Jews in the future will "go down from their housetops!" But that did in fact happen in 70 AD. Those Jews who had waited too long, saw the Roman army coming from their houses in the fields, ran down from their rooftops, and took off for the hills. Being Jesus' disciples, they knew what was coming and that this judgment was not for them!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Point is, there are STILL TODAY huge stones atop of one another at the temple mount. Debate over.

The debate is over because you're unreasonable. Jesus said the stones of the temple would be disassembled--not the stone of the retaining wall surrounding the temple plaza!

 

[Randy Kluth]

"It will be a future generation" that will be eyewitness of the signs that precede the future second coming

1.) What is near even at the doors, the future second coming of Jesus Christ

2.) What is the day and hour no man knows, the future second coming of Jesus Christ...

Matthew 24:33-36KJV
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

I admit that this can be difficult for some because Jesus here seems to blend the events of his own generation with his 2nd Coming. But there is a likely solution to this problem, as I see it.

Jesus saw his Coming and historic judgments from God as unpredictable and something we cannot prepare for except by living godly lives. Both the 70 AD event and the 2nd Coming are similarly unpredictable in terms of the exact day.

Jesus was saying that inasmuch as his Coming, as well as divine judgments, would be unpredictable, those who live in his generation must follow him every day to properly be ready. They must "keep watch" and "always be ready."

Jesus was not saying that he could come any time during the time of his generation. He was only saying that events like the 2nd Coming and the fall of Jerusalem happen suddenly, making it necessary that they continue to live godly lives all the time.

 

[covenantee]

Nope. The Matthew 24:15-16 Scripture is for the very end of this world, not 70 A.D.

The Judean Christians fled, fulfilling Matthew 24:15-16.

Describe how you will undo the fulfillment.

 

[covenantee]

Point is, there are STILL TODAY huge stones atop of one another at the temple mount. Debate over.

Whom to believe?

Jewish and Roman historical testimony
or
Davy's imagination

Your debate is over.

Trashed by the Jews and Romans.

From the Jewish Virtual Library:

History & Overivew of the Western Wall (jewishvirtuallibrary.org)

"When the Romans razed the Second Temple, they left one outer wall standing. They probably would have destroyed that wall as well, but it must have seemed too insignificant to them since it was not part of the Temple itself, just a retaining wall surrounding the Temple Mount."

 

[Davy]

The debate is over because you're unreasonable.

Only reason it is over is because I am STEADFAST in God's Word as written, and I REFUSE to heed men's leaven doctrines.

 

[Davy]

The Judean Christians fled, fulfilling Matthew 24:15-16.

Describe how you will undo the fulfillment.

The Matthew 24:4-31 Scripture is about the 7 Signs of the end that Jesus was giving in His Olivet discourse. When He finished giving those Signs, He then commanded His servants to learn the Parable of the Fig Tree. And after that Parable, He said the generation THAT SEES ALL THESE THINGS will not pass UNTIL ALL THESE THINGS have been fulfilled. Those things He was pointing to are those 7 Signs of the END of this world which He gave, and ARE ALSO THE SEALS OF REVELATION 6.

Matt 24:32-35
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
KJV

Now one of the EASIEST things to know He was pointing to the generation at the END of this world at His future return, is the FACT that He said when those who "shall see all these things", i.e., ALL those Signs. That because the LAST SIGN He gave there is that of His future 2nd coming! So did those in the era of 70 A.D. see Jesus' 2nd coming? NO! Absolutely NOT! (but still the false doctrine of Full Preterism was developed by Judaizers no doubt to try and counter that, but just makes those look stupid.)

And His Book of Revelation was given through Apostle John while John was in prison on the Isle of Patmos in the reign of Roman emperor Domitian who reigned from 81-96 A.D. Thus the Seals of Revelation 6 linked to Christ's Olivet discourse shows the Signs were NOT fulfilled yet in John's time of captivity in the reign of Domitian, and that was past 70 A.D.

The Judaizers who are against Christianity and thus Christ don't care if some of their false doctrines they push in some pulpits is kind of stupid sounding or not, because they know there are still plenty of 'ignorant' brethren that won't open up their own Bibles to check them out!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Only reason it is over is because I am STEADFAST in God's Word as written, and I REFUSE to heed men's leaven doctrines.

I'm glad you're steadfast in God's word. That's what we all want to be.

 

[Davy]

Whom to believe?

Jewish and Roman historical testimony
or
Davy's imagination

Your debate is over.

Trashed by the Jews and Romans.

From the Jewish Virtual Library:

History & Overivew of the Western Wall (jewishvirtuallibrary.org)

"When the Romans razed the Second Temple, they left one outer wall standing. They probably would have destroyed that wall as well, but it must have seemed too insignificant to them since it was not part of the Temple itself, just a retaining wall surrounding the Temple Mount."

You can believe JUDAISM all you want, since you show you're not really here to support CHRISTIAN history.

 

[covenantee]

The Matthew 24:4-31 Scripture is about the 7 Signs of the end that Jesus was giving in His Olivet discourse. When He finished giving those Signs, He then commanded His servants to learn the Parable of the Fig Tree. And after that Parable, He said the generation THAT SEES ALL THESE THINGS will not pass UNTIL ALL THESE THINGS have been fulfilled. Those things He was pointing to are those 7 Signs of the END of this world which He gave, and ARE ALSO THE SEALS OF REVELATION 6.

Matt 24:32-35
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
KJV

Now one of the EASIEST things to know He was pointing to the generation at the END of this world at His future return, is the FACT that He said when those who "shall see all these things", i.e., ALL those Signs. That because the LAST SIGN He gave there is that of His future 2nd coming! So did those in the era of 70 A.D. see Jesus' 2nd coming? NO! Absolutely NOT! (but still the false doctrine of Full Preterism was developed by Judaizers no doubt to try and counter that, but just makes those look stupid.)

And His Book of Revelation was given through Apostle John while John was in prison on the Isle of Patmos in the reign of Roman emperor Domitian who reigned from 81-96 A.D. Thus the Seals of Revelation 6 linked to Christ's Olivet discourse shows the Signs were NOT fulfilled yet in John's time of captivity in the reign of Domitian, and that was past 70 A.D.

The Judaizers who are against Christianity and thus Christ don't care if some of their false doctrines they push in some pulpits is kind of stupid sounding or not, because they know there are still plenty of 'ignorant' brethren that won't open up their own Bibles to check them out!

The counterfeits of preterism and futurism were spawned in the heresy of the apostasized papacy, by Jesuits, not Judaizers. Evidently you don't know the difference.

You haven't told us how you'll reverse the fulfillments of the Judean Christians' flight.

 

[covenantee]

You can believe JUDAISM all you want, since you show you're not really here to support CHRISTIAN history.

Provide a quote, source, date, and name of any recognized pre-19th century historical Christian source who/which denies that the temple was completely leveled, in complete fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy in Matthew 24:2.