Tips to recognize gnosticism

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Vengle

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FHII do you take up your cross.

Are you bagging Prentis because of one thing that horrifies you that anyone should have some sort of backbone.

I think i have seen enough people who say lord lord and just go on being a full on worldly numskull ranting and raving that they are definitely going to Heaven even if they disobey Jesus full on as nothing they can do can robe them of it.

But did not the Devil go and try to temp even Jesus ? and let say if, what if he could of temped him. Jesus would not of said the words back to him now would he? so i think we can do the same when temptation come our way ? but do you just swallow it and fall to Satan in gutlessness, and in that you have sold your soul out, the death of the Spirit. and is it not better to lose one's life then to lose ones soul.

But that doctrine works so well to undermine the wisdom of God's letting it be a process by which one proves their true heart desire through commitment.

It would be so much easier just to say, "I believe" and have God accept that whether it is true or not.

Through the trial of time that process reveals what we really believe. And that is something we need to know. We must come face to face with our unbelief and make a deliberate choice as to which way we will go. We are good at deceiving ourselves because we do not really know ourselves. Our first claim of belief could be just our fooling our self.
 
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Prentis

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But that doctrine works so well to undermine the wisdom of God's letting it be a process by which one proves their true heart desire through commitment.

It would be so much easier just to say, "I believe" and have God accept that whether it is true or not.

Through the trial of time that process reveals what we really believe. And that is something we need to know. We must come face to face with our unbelief and make a deliberate choice as to which way we will go. We are good at deceiving ourselves because we do not really know ourselves. Our first claim of belief could be just our fooling our self.

Yes!

[sup]15[/sup] “If you love Me, keep My commandments.
[sup]23[/sup] Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. [sup]24[/sup] He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me. (John 14)

Jesus will one day say 'if you loved you, you would of kept my commands'. ("I never knew you, you who work lawlessness")

And this is exactly what this doctrine, it works lawlessness. It seeks to destroy the law, and claims this is what Jesus does, rather than fulfilling it. Our faith is verified by our faithfulness. I have learned by experience that it is easy to love the Lord when we first know him, and he gives us his presence reassures us. But soon enough he teaches us not to rely on our feeling him, to actually walk by faith, and not by sight. When this comes, unless our character is shaped, we will fall. God tests us further and further. Every time we pass a test, after the time of rest comes the next test. He seeks fruit, he seeks growth. If we fail, it is not a condemnation (as long as there remains hope), but an indication of what is lacking. :)

The danger is to be of those who are forever getting lessons, but never passing them and moving on.
 

Prentis

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So what about people who belive we have a cloak for our sins ?

We don't have a cloak.

An advocate? Yes. A merciful God? Yes.

Think of Jesus as a union representative. And then think of the Father as a supervisor. Now think that this Jesus willingly came down from a management position to be simple worker, lifting boxes and doing mundane jobs because he loved the workers so much, he wished to help them. The union worker came represent men before the supervisor. He will defend you, and if you made a mistake, he will see that your side is shown. Maybe you didn't know, or you didn't realize! Or your sorry, and you try hard, and might do well if given another chance. The supervisor will hear him!

But if you have a bad attitude towards the representative, you feel you are entitled to have him defend you, and you treat him as though he owed you, 'cause he knows what it's like', he won't be able to defend you, but you will expose yourself in this. Or if you 'spit' in the supervisor's face, or despise him for telling you what you must do differently, for using the authority that is his, the union rep will have no grounds on which to defend you, and your pride will have brought you down, and you'll be fired.
 

FHII

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Mr. Rosenberger, I'm not going to even honor your comments with a response...

Prentis, are you still going to say our sins are not covered by the blood of Christ? Unless I'm wrong, your doctrine seems to be, we are saved by grace and no longer under the law. And its so wonderful that we must keep the law we aren't under to show our appreciation, and we still have to keep his commandments, so lets keep the law." It's rediculous if thats so. It is a doctrine of grace plus works.

I'm all for keeping his commandments. What were the commandments of Christ, as well as the doctrines of the Apostles? It was to live by faith, not the works of the law.
 

Prentis

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He who loves me follows my commands. If this makes Jesus a works teacher, then I'm all for works... Works of the Father, that is! ;)

The fulfillment of the law is love. We are called to love as HE loved. In other words, we walk by his love, seeing with his eyes. We are called to have the love of God perfected in us.

We are washed by the blood of Christ and our old life and sins is gone. 'Now go and sin no more'. We are not given mercy so that we could remain spiritual babies all our lives! We are given mercy that we might learn to be conformed to him, and be perfect as he is. This, indeed, is impossible with man, but it is possible with God.
 

veteran

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Gnosticism is defined as believing that one is saved by having a certain knowledge. Believe it or not, this has become the rule of thumb of the modern gospel. Here is what the whole gospel of gnosticism is founded on:

Implying that knowing Jesus as Lord, or that he died for us, is salvific.


I know you probably mean well, but that's a long ways from the real meaning of Gnosticism. It really requires an understanding of the very basis of pagan philosophy to define it.

The way the early Gnostics (and later Gnosticism) apply the word is not as 'theoretical knowledge', but in the 'direct experience knowledge' sense involving mystical enlightenment.

A more apt definition is, Gnosticism is the false practice of seeking to 'know God through direct mystic experience' vs. believing in God through divine revelation by The Holy Spirit in His Word.

Gnosticism began in the 2nd century A.D. with a group that joined Greek Neo-Platonist philosophy with Christian Doctrine. One of their worst falsehoods was the idea that our Lord Jesus Christ did not die on the cross, but that His disciples removed Him beforehand, and He lived to old age, married, and literally had flesh children.

Modern Gnosticim is what the modern Holy Blood, Holy Grail type stories are about, including movies like The Da Vinci Code. One of the last falsehoods pushed in The Da Vinci Code was the erroneous idea that Christ's powers of the mystic were directly transferable to a supposed flesh lineage He had.

What Gnosticism really is, is esoteric occultism. That's where 'mysticism' is derived. This is why some of the early Church fathers in the 1st - 4th centuries wrote so much against the falsehoods of the Gnostics.

Ultimately, it's about the vain attempt of some men to become 'a God'. That's the main goal of esoteric mysticism, and was the goal of the ancient pagan 'Mystery Religions'.

Later European followers of such spiritual esoteric style Christian movements were those like Jacob Boheme, Emmanuel Swedenborg, etc. It contributed much to the later 19th century 'spiritualist' movements in the U.S.A. and Charismatic ideology. Some later Catholic monks got trapped in it, and there still exists forms of it among those groups, but also among the Protestant Church also.

But those Gnostic type movements have NOTHING to do with Divine Revelation by The Holy Spirit or through God's Word. The difference is with the idea of a 'practice', or 'method'. Gnosticism or Mysticism seeks the use of an esoteric 'method' of exercises in order to more closely approach God in order to have 'direct' mystical-like experiences of the hidden mysteries of God. In THAT sense is how their 'gnosis' is meant, i.e., to know by direct experience by mystic practice.
 

aspen

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I agree with much of what veteran said about Gnosticism. I do not agree that experiencing God directly is one of the differences between G an Christianity. We experience God directly when we worship and engage in deep prayer. The dangers of G is that it denies Christ came in the flesh, is dualistic, believes it has secret knowledge, and rejects charity. Christianity has rich tradition mystic prayer that is perfectly orthodox. Also the early church taught a concept called Deification, which describes the fully redeemed soul.
 

Prentis

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I know you probably mean well, but that's a long ways from the real meaning of Gnosticism. It really requires an understanding of the very basis of pagan philosophy to define it.

The way the early Gnostics (and later Gnosticism) apply the word is not as 'theoretical knowledge', but in the 'direct experience knowledge' sense involving mystical enlightenment.

A more apt definition is, Gnosticism is the false practice of seeking to 'know God through direct mystic experience' vs. believing in God through divine revelation by The Holy Spirit in His Word.

Gnosticism began in the 2nd century A.D. with a group that joined Greek Neo-Platonist philosophy with Christian Doctrine. One of their worst falsehoods was the idea that our Lord Jesus Christ did not die on the cross, but that His disciples removed Him beforehand, and He lived to old age, married, and literally had flesh children.

Modern Gnosticim is what the modern Holy Blood, Holy Grail type stories are about, including movies like The Da Vinci Code. One of the last falsehoods pushed in The Da Vinci Code was the erroneous idea that Christ's powers of the mystic were directly transferable to a supposed flesh lineage He had.

What Gnosticism really is, is esoteric occultism. That's where 'mysticism' is derived. This is why some of the early Church fathers in the 1st - 4th centuries wrote so much against the falsehoods of the Gnostics.

Ultimately, it's about the vain attempt of some men to become 'a God'. That's the main goal of esoteric mysticism, and was the goal of the ancient pagan 'Mystery Religions'.

Later European followers of such spiritual esoteric style Christian movements were those like Jacob Boheme, Emmanuel Swedenborg, etc. It contributed much to the later 19th century 'spiritualist' movements in the U.S.A. and Charismatic ideology. Some later Catholic monks got trapped in it, and there still exists forms of it among those groups, but also among the Protestant Church also.

But those Gnostic type movements have NOTHING to do with Divine Revelation by The Holy Spirit or through God's Word. The difference is with the idea of a 'practice', or 'method'. Gnosticism or Mysticism seeks the use of an esoteric 'method' of exercises in order to more closely approach God in order to have 'direct' mystical-like experiences of the hidden mysteries of God. In THAT sense is how their 'gnosis' is meant, i.e., to know by direct experience by mystic practice.

Thanks for this clarification, veteran. :)

I guess I'm talking about a different 'Gnosticism'. It was the word that seemed most fitting, since it means knowledge, and I was considering those who hold that salvation is by certain beliefs... Which is ridiculous! Rather he who works righteousness is counted righteous.

But you have the true definition of what is known as 'gnosticism'. My subject remains the same, I guess it's my title that is out of place! :eek: :)
 

veteran

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Thanks for this clarification, veteran. :)

I guess I'm talking about a different 'Gnosticism'. It was the word that seemed most fitting, since it means knowledge, and I was considering those who hold that salvation is by certain beliefs... Which is ridiculous! Rather he who works righteousness is counted righteous.

But you have the true definition of what is known as 'gnosticism'. My subject remains the same, I guess it's my title that is out of place! :eek: :)

Well, Christ's Salvation definitely IS... according to "certain beliefs", the main one required being belief on Him as The Saviour by His Sacrifice upon the cross for the remission of sins of those who believe. And then He sent Apostle Paul to write most of the New Testament that defines our Lord's Salvation Plan by The New Covenant through His Blood.


I think what you might be trying to describe is the idea Christ described as the 'tradition of men'.

Mark 7:7-9
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And He said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
(KJV)


The idea of 'knowledge' is not a negative word in God's Word. It's the TYPE of knowledge that defines the difference.

The Greek word 'gnosis' is used often in the New Testament (especially by Paul) when speaking of knowledge of God's Salvation through His Son (which that Salvation is what the whole Bible is about). But in some Scriptures Apostle Paul applies 'gnosis' in the negative sense in regards to certain men. When he does that the context of the subject he's giving about those men is what defines the TYPE of knowledge he was condemning. So there exists True Knowledge, and also false knowledge, but the idea of knowledge itself has a neutral meaning. The TYPE of knowledge is always... required to define it Biblically.

The way traditions of men among Christianity get started is by how men's traditions remove an idea from its Scriptural context, and instead apply it a completely different way. The problem is compounded because many Scriptures were given in a metaphorical or symbolic sense also. That's where comes the 'theoretical knowledge' side of Bible interpretation, because there's also Truth in Scripture that is not given in a 'direct' information sense, which only The Holy Spirit can provide the proper meaning.
 

Prentis

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Knowledge is important, and necessary, but it is not salvific.

It is not the hearers of the word (who hereby receive knowledge), but the doers of the words (hereby being faithful) who are saved. :)
 

veteran

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James 1:21-25
21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
(KJV)
 
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