Tithe...NOT a christian doctrine

[Angelina]

I agree with you SW!

I do not believe that tithing is something that was given to Gentile Christian believers to follow. That was all part of the OT law which was given to Israel to observe. Note:Acts 4: after the Pentecost baptism.

[sup]32 [/sup]Now the multitude of those who believed were of one heart and one soul; neither did anyone say that any of the things he possessed was his own, but they had all things in common. [sup]33 [/sup]And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And great grace was upon them all. [sup]34 [/sup]Nor was there anyone among them who lacked; for all who were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the proceeds of the things that were sold, [sup]35 [/sup]and laid them at the apostles’ feet; and they distributed to each as anyone had need.

Everyone shared everything equally...the Church today does not always walk this way. They use a lot of their tithing to furnish, extend or buy Church buildings, provide for more instruments or other Church minstrations eg: paying the Pastor and other officers [which is fine btw] 1 Timothy 5:18. Although the bible seems to point to the fact that there were Churches during the days of Acts, they were probably Synagogues who became converted or home gatherings, which I believe was normal practice for Gentile believers during that period of time. Acts 2:42, 43. Acts 2: 46, 47. Hebrews10:24, 25.

I have no qualms about this practice [tithing] as I like to give... when I feel moved to do so, I do [alms]. Particularly for visiting ministries or others that God puts on my heart.... :wub:

The Lord has called us to work outside the gates just as he was outside the gates [of the city/ the Temple] when he was crucified...
so perhaps it is time that we as a body [Church] do that rather than be settlers in a foreign land...

Hebrews 13
[sup]12 [/sup]Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people with His own blood, suffered outside the gate. [sup]13 [/sup]Therefore let us go forth to Him, outside the camp, bearing His reproach. [sup]14 [/sup]For here we have no continuing city, but we seek the one to come.




Shalom/Peace

 

[Groundzero]

My question had to do with wage earners who had no producing lands, herds or flocks. Where do you see them handing over a portion of their monetary wages to the Levites in those verses? Please point it out to us.

Correct me if my assumptions are wrong, but I understand that in those days, they generally didn't rely on money to the same extent as we do. Food and animals were a major part of trading.

Anyway, I don't really know why I bothered getting into a discussion over this. It's rather pointless.

 

[Groundzero]

I hope you don't mind if I refuse to engage in ad hominem bantering with you.....

Sorry about that. I can be rather sarcastic at times, and it sometimes gets the best of me.

 

[BeforeThereWas]

I do not believe that tithing is something that was given to Gentile Christian believers to follow. That was all part of the OT law which was given to Israel to observe. Note:Acts 4: after the Pentecost baptism.

That's pretty much what I get from the texts when I read them. As much as I've tried, I can't find the continuity in the teachings of those who instruct that the tithing requirement is still for today. Those who teach that must perform all manner of intellectual gymnastics in order to violate the timeframe, the direction, the authority, and the definitions of tithing in order to try and make it fit the New Covenant timeframe, AND for it to be something that must be handed over to institutional church organizations..

Everyone shared everything equally...the Church today does not always walk this way.

I'm glad you mentioned that. I once was talking with one of the youth in our program who told me that the first century church members sold everything and gave to meet needs. I asked to be shown where the text said they sold "all" their lands and homes.

Perplexed, the youth looked, and could not find such, and also didn't understand why believing they gave ALL would be a problem to me.

I answered the question with a question: How would it have benefitted the early Church for more and more believers to impoverish themselves out into the streets and gutters in order to give to others, only to THEN become increasing burdens upon the other believers who didn't sell everything they had and give to other believers in need? That would have created a vicious cycle of financial self-destruction. That clearly violates the principles of good stewardship.

They use a lot of their tithing to furnish, extend or buy Church buildings, provide for more instruments or other Church minstrations eg: paying the Pastor and other officers [which is fine btw] 1 Timothy 5:18. Although the bible seems to point to the fact that there were Churches during the days of Acts, they were probably Synagogues who became converted or home gatherings, which I believe was normal practice for Gentile believers during that period of time. Acts 2:42, 43. Acts 2: 46, 47. Hebrews10:24, 25.

Actually, we have no evidence that the earliest believers trapsed into the realm, as a common practice, of acquiring communal facilities for themselves, and thus lavishing the largest portion of their giving back upon themselves, until around 323 AD, which is about the time the roman catholic religion began.

I have no qualms about this practice [tithing] as I like to give... when I feel moved to do so, I do [alms].

I have no problem with folks using a tenth as a guide for their giving. The problem is when that tenth turns out to be the largest, primary percentage of what they set aside for giving that they then hand over to a church organization.

When that percentage turns out to be the largest, primary portion of people's giving, and they hand it over to an organization that absorbs the largest portion of it into facility expenditures, staffing, materials, etc., etc., THAT'S when I have a problem with the practice, because it turns biblical examples and commands for giving completely upside-down.

It's essentially robbing God when the luxuries of facilities, programs and professional staffing take a higher precedence over meeting the needs of fellow believers and those in our local communities.

I have no problem with people supporting their institutional church organization SECONDARILY to their PRIMARY responsibilities toward fellow believers. All the gawdy facilities I drive past each day serve only as daily reminders of man's fleshly avarice and pride. The idea that anyone defends the practice of putting THINGS as higher priorities than PEOPLE, the repugnance of that traditional practice and blief is obviously a taste to which they've become fatally addicted.

The Lord has called us to work outside the gates just as he was outside the gates [of the city/ the Temple] when he was crucified... so perhaps it is time that we as a body [Church] do that rather than be settlers in a foreign land...

Hebrews 13
[sup]12 [/sup]Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people with His own blood, suffered outside the gate. [sup]13 [/sup]Therefore let us go forth to Him, outside the camp, bearing His reproach. [sup]14 [/sup]For here we have no continuing city, but we seek the one to come.

Amen.

SW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Correct me if my assumptions are wrong, but I understand that in those days, they generally didn't rely on money to the same extent as we do. Food and animals were a major part of trading.

Abraham used currency, which proves that currency served as the means and measuring stick (so to speak) by which the worth and value of commodities and livestock were traded. Jesus Himself spoke of the CURRENCY the laborers in the field were told they would receive for the days labor in His parable.

Anyway, I don't really know why I bothered getting into a discussion over this. It's rather pointless.

Really? I tend to think that a proper understanding of giving, in relation to the many, many unscriptural teachings and practices, would be of utmost importance to all professing believers.

I also tend to think that the pursuit of TRUTH is ALWAYS a worthwhile endeavor....except to those who are so lazy and sickeningly comfortable with their beliefs because they don't have the spine and intestinal fortitude to STAND UP for the TRUTH in a world filled with lies and half-truths, much of which is spewed forth from pulpits and inside Sunday school classes all over this country.

The kinds of folks who will continue believing the falsehoods with which they've become intimately and adulterously entangled are a dime a dozen. They'r the ones who believe, "I HAVE ARRIVED," tuck tail and run when confronted with uncomfortable truths that don't align with their more comfortable falsehoods.

Well, I'm not one of those types. I'm asking these questions because I want to KNOW and EMBRACE the TRUTH. (CAPS for emphasis only, not shouting)

SW

 

[Lively Stone]

Tithing is the basic--the tenth. Giving is what we do above the tithe. We pay a tithe, but we give an offering.

 

[Angelina]

Preaching to the choir...I give alms [free will offerings]

Blessings!!!

 

[Lively Stone]

Preaching to the choir...I give alms [free will offerings]

Blessings!!!

Glad you're singin'!

 

[Angelina]

Worship/ Music leader...

 

[jiggyfly]

Tithing was an old covenant practice only. In my experiences most that teach tithing today do not even teach a scripturally accurate tithe.

It is impossible for a New covenant believer to tithe scripturally without compromising their position in the new covenant.

In the new covenant we are the storehouse/temple, the kings and priests.

 

[Stefcui]

Tithing is a sacred cow among most Christians. I do not tithe to a church because it feeds their addictions and sins. We were not meant to store up money, we were not meant to use our “tithes” for elaborate building projects, for expensive music equipment, for lighting effects, for copyright fees on worship songs, for tax deductable clothing stores or coffee shops, for bank loans, for the private education of the ministers children, for a ministers flat-screen television or billiards room or swimming pool, for missionary groups to have extended holidays in third world countries… I know someone who is financed by a church as a missionary who is not even a Christian! All of these actions are gross distortions of the intended use of tithes. It is like giving someone money when you know their growing to spend it on drugs.

I look for other methods to use my money in which I know it will reach its intended use. The tithing arrangement was established for the Levites to distribute to the poor and to pay for their living expenses. I know people who are poor who have gone to the church for help, and the church told them to go to Life Line, a government funded agency, for help. Tithing has become a drug to the churches.

Tithing is also a means governments have used to entrap the churches into business contracts. All monies received (tithes) are considered as part of a business transaction that needs to be registered. All churches are considered as businesses who “buy and sell”. All churches must register with the governments to receive a business name and a tax-file number. Without this name and number you cannot operate for “business”…, you cannot buy and sell.

I am not making this up, this is real, it has been happening since World War 2, and every Christian is affected. Our tithes were the means of the Beast trapping us. This same beast deceives the entire inhabited earth (Rev 13:14), meaning, everyone on earth has been tricked and deceived… everyone has fallen into a trap without knowing. Everyone includes the church!

God Bless
Steve

 

[BeforeThereWas]

In my experiences most that teach tithing today do not even teach a scripturally accurate tithe.

That's exactly the problem today. For most, when they tithe, that tends to be the majority, primary portion of their giving, Handing that over to institutionalized church organizations, in most cases, is a robbery of God, not giving to God.

It is impossible for a New covenant believer to tithe scripturally without compromising their position in the new covenant.

Yes, if they do so out of a sense of requirement.

SW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Tithing is a sacred cow among most Christians.

Ahhh, but Barna and his gang who do ,allegedly imparial, surveys, seem to think most professing believers don't tithe faithfully. Most institutional church organizations provide data showing that those who attend churchianity don't give enough to organized religion.

Given the many fleshly dynamics that undergird institutional religion, no amount of money, in reality, would be enough.

I do not tithe to a church because it feeds their addictions and sins. We were not meant to store up money, we were not meant to use our “tithes” for elaborate building projects, for expensive music equipment, for lighting effects, for copyright fees on worship songs, for tax deductable clothing stores or coffee shops, for bank loans, for the private education of the ministers children, for a ministers flat-screen television or billiards room or swimming pool, for missionary groups to have extended holidays in third world countries… I know someone who is financed by a church as a missionary who is not even a Christian! All of these actions are gross distortions of the intended use of tithes. It is like giving someone money when you know their growing to spend it on drugs.

I agree that most church organizations habitually lavish the majority of what's handed over to them on themselves LONG before they ever do anything for those in need.

What staggers the mind is how anyone can hand over the largest portion of their giving to their church organization, and then believe they've given to God. That's almost completely incomprehensible.

And then we encounter those who claim they don't understand such criticisms, and that they prefer not to hear any more, all without stopping to think that maybe, just maybe, those stating such objections might have good reason for such criticisms.

I look for other methods to use my money in which I know it will reach its intended use. The tithing arrangement was established for the Levites to distribute to the poor and to pay for their living expenses. I know people who are poor who have gone to the church for help, and the church told them to go to Life Line, a government funded agency, for help. Tithing has become a drug to the churches.

And yet church organizations routinely pretend that the token outreaches they perform are sufficient (even though they talk about wishing they had more money and resources to help more needy folks). That's just like a snake eating its own tail. They know the majority of what's handed over to them is absorbed into operational costs, and yet remain oblivious to their own improprieties. Religion therefore presents a no-win scenario, and yet God can use them to His glory, just like He used pharoah.

I am not making this up, this is real, it has been happening since World War 2, and every Christian is affected.

Actually, that nonsense has been going on for 1700 years, since the beginning of the roman catholic church organization in about 323 AD.

SW

 

[Stefcui]

Actually, that nonsense has been going on for 1700 years, since the beginning of the roman catholic church organization in about 323 AD.

Good comments, thanks. The Donation of Constantine comes to mind, as well as the Sale of Indulgences. After World War 2 it became an official contact between Governments and all of the Seven Churches where a name and number was compulsory. This was the first time in 2000 years that this had happened.

God Bless
Steve

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Ahh. I see.

I thought you were talking about tithing itself. That doctrine, from what I've been able to dig up, traces its roots back to the sixth century. That's the earliest I can find any reference to what's commonly taught today. Pagan practices were the most predominant in the fourth century at the beginnings of roman catholicism, even thought many elements of paganism are still deeply rooted in roman catholic dotrines today.

Do congregational organizations today still issue numbers to their blind followers for tracking purposes for their tithes?

BTW

 

[Angelina]

Do congregational organizations today still issue numbers to their blind followers for tracking purposes for their tithes?

Lolol! A certain local Church in my area [which also happens to be the largest] still does....

Bless ya!

 

[jiggyfly]

That's exactly the problem today. For most, when they tithe, that tends to be the majority, primary portion of their giving, Handing that over to institutionalized church organizations, in most cases, is a robbery of God, not giving to God.



Yes, if they do so out of a sense of requirement.

SW

Yes and just to clarify, I can not find any scripture within the NT where God mandates tithing. It was a levying system which God mandated specific descendants of Israel as a nation to adhere to, and not what is commonly propagated today. Tithing was/is not giving as some teach, when money is owed we pay it, paying debt or taxes is not considered giving. Tis the reason they don't call it giving your bills or giving your taxes.

 

[Episkopos]

Ahhh, but Barna and his gang who do ,allegedly imparial, surveys, seem to think most professing believers don't tithe faithfully. Most institutional church organizations provide data showing that those who attend churchianity don't give enough to organized religion.

Given the many fleshly dynamics that undergird institutional religion, no amount of money, in reality, would be enough.



I agree that most church organizations habitually lavish the majority of what's handed over to them on themselves LONG before they ever do anything for those in need.

What staggers the mind is how anyone can hand over the largest portion of their giving to their church organization, and then believe they've given to God. That's almost completely incomprehensible.

And then we encounter those who claim they don't understand such criticisms, and that they prefer not to hear any more, all without stopping to think that maybe, just maybe, those stating such objections might have good reason for such criticisms.



And yet church organizations routinely pretend that the token outreaches they perform are sufficient (even though they talk about wishing they had more money and resources to help more needy folks). That's just like a snake eating its own tail. They know the majority of what's handed over to them is absorbed into operational costs, and yet remain oblivious to their own improprieties. Religion therefore presents a no-win scenario, and yet God can use them to His glory, just like He used pharoah.



Actually, that nonsense has been going on for 1700 years, since the beginning of the roman catholic church organization in about 323 AD.

SW

An excellent post! :)

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Yes and just to clarify, I can not find any scripture within the NT where God mandates tithing.

Very true indeed. It's only by way of the wildest of imaginations, or one who has a devlish agenda, that one can see what isn't there.

It was a levying system which God mandated specific descendants of Israel as a nation to adhere to, and not what is commonly propagated today. Tithing was/is not giving as some teach, when money is owed we pay it, paying debt or taxes is not considered giving. Tis the reason they don't call it giving your bills or giving your taxes.

Good point. That's why I refer ro tithing as an act of "handing over."

No amount of mental/intellectual girations can possibly concoct a reasonable explanation as to how benefitting from what one "hands over" to institutionalized religion can in any way be construed as a form of "giving," except for perhaps that very small portion that's actually used for meeting needs.

I see no difference between that and handing over one's monthly dues for membership to the local Masonic, Moose, Elk, Demolay, Eastern Star, Beaver, Possum (or whatever) Lodge. Reaping benefit from what one hands over is exactly what one expects from any business or man-made club organization in NT times.

When one gives to the needy and the poor, he or she is storing up GREAT treasure in Heaven because the giver reaps NO earthly benefit back from that giving, and the treasure in Heaven will not be burned up in the infernal fires of total destruction that will one day swallow up this entire creation.

Institutional church organizations are not at all representative of the Church (capital "C").

Why?

Simply stated: No unbeliever is a member of the Church. Unbelievers enter the doors of religious church (small "c") organizations on a routine, daily basis, and are even members in good standing therein.

Speaking of the visible realm: I'm SO thankful for the PURITY and GLORIOUS EXPRESSION of God that can originate ONLY from the ©hurch not defined nor boxed in by man-made walls and ecclesiastical, order of service constraints.

Those buildings and their petty sophistication in architecture and intellectual pursuits provide the entertainment and ear-tickling so many desire with the greatest of vigor. Yes, even the smaller, older, simpler organizations will utterly fail at any attempt at mimicking that which resides ONLY within each believer...never a building or organizational structure.

SW

 

[jiggyfly]

Very true indeed. It's only by way of the wildest of imaginations, or one who has a devlish agenda, that one can see what isn't there.



Good point. That's why I refer ro tithing as an act of "handing over."

No amount of mental/intellectual girations can possibly concoct a reasonable explanation as to how benefitting from what one "hands over" to institutionalized religion can in any way be construed as a form of "giving," except for perhaps that very small portion that's actually used for meeting needs.

I see no difference between that and handing over one's monthly dues for membership to the local Masonic, Moose, Elk, Demolay, Eastern Star, Beaver, Possum (or whatever) Lodge. Reaping benefit from what one hands over is exactly what one expects from any business or man-made club organization in NT times.

When one gives to the needy and the poor, he or she is storing up GREAT treasure in Heaven because the giver reaps NO earthly benefit back from that giving, and the treasure in Heaven will not be burned up in the infernal fires of total destruction that will one day swallow up this entire creation.

Institutional church organizations are not at all representative of the Church (capital "C").

Why?

Simply stated: No unbeliever is a member of the Church. Unbelievers enter the doors of religious church (small "c") organizations on a routine, daily basis, and are even members in good standing therein.

Speaking of the visible realm: I'm SO thankful for the PURITY and GLORIOUS EXPRESSION of God that can originate ONLY from the ©hurch not defined nor boxed in by man-made walls and ecclesiastical, order of service constraints.

Those buildings and their petty sophistication in architecture and intellectual pursuits provide the entertainment and ear-tickling so many desire with the greatest of vigor. Yes, even the smaller, older, simpler organizations will utterly fail at any attempt at mimicking that which resides ONLY within each believer...never a building or organizational structure.

SW

I totally agree, but this can only be seen with HolySpirit's help and is usually the result of disillusionment with the Christian religious institution.
Freud said that man is basically motivated by one of two things, pleasure and pain, and man cannot turn loose of anything unless it cause him more pain than pleasure. So in many cases the more someone likes the religious liturgy and lifestyle the more pain it will have to inflict before they can lay it down.