Well, God didn't say that. (at least not as you meant it) THAT is the point.
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To Hell and Back - Visiting Gehenna
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Rockerduck
Well-Known Member
I d
I don't read calvin and could care lessl. God chose me, I didn't choose Him. You should listen to some testimonies from people of how God chose them. Romans 8:29 is correct. Chosen and predestined, by God..
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
As I already mentioned... God has chosen everyone.
But, they did not reciprocate by choosing Him. This is a 2 ways street.
God does not force someone to be a Christians... they have to make the decision to turn away from the power of the devil and turn to the power of the Lord as mentioned in Acts 26:18
In order to be accepted by the Lord, one must choose Him to be their Lord and Savior... in response to Him having chosen them first by going to the Cross to pay for the sins of ALL of mankind.
2 Corinthians 6:17
Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
We are to confess Jesus as our Lord and Savior and then come out from the world and be separated unto Him... before He receives us.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
twas a joke for compartments of hell burning or non burning, like smoking or non smoking!
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
What did I learn? Nothing I didn’t already know….
“The catholic church” adopted the concept of hell from the Greeks, and it was indeed a powerful tool in scaring the pants off small children and adults alike……do we really think that God wants to emotionally blackmail people into serving him like some despotic tyrant?
There is no hell of eternal torment and there never was. The highest penalty paid under God’s law was death….there was no torture involved, just removal from life. What does it benefit anyone to suffer forever with no way to repent?
LOL
Actually "smoking or non smoking" would have worked well. That's funny. Thanks.
--- Parody ---
Demon: Welcome to hell.
Resident: What a horrible place.
Demon: Thank you. We do our best.
Resident: Where are you taking me?
Demon: That depends.
Resident: Depends on what?
Demon: Would you prefer smoking, or nonsmoking?
Resident: Are you serious?
Demon: No. You need to get a sense of humor.
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That there is One who has the power and the wisdom to create all this. All this includes me. So I must be His, not just my own person here by random chance. No, if all this was made, as it obviously was, then we are all responsible to the maker.
And if I was made, that includes this part of my mind that tells me when I'm wrong. And if I know I'm wrong, there's a reason that something is wrong, that that goes back to the maker, the designer.
And if I've been made by someone, and I have this internal sense of direction, it's reasonable to think this was intentional, that I'm meant to go that way. But I don't go that way, I go other ways.
So then this must be against the plan of the one who made me, who has the wisdom and power, and gives every indication that there is a plan, and I'm not following it.
So if I'm going against this one who has the power and wisdom to create all this, now what? If I'm in the wrong, what can I do? Maybe the only thing is to appeal to this creator for mercy?
Every day I receive goodness from this maker, as the sun warms me, and grows my crops, and the water refreshes me, and grows my crops, and feeds me, even though I know I'm wrong, so maybe there is mercy to be had!
With me so far?
Much love!
"He who has suffered has ceased from sin."
Suffering stops sin without violating anyone's choices. You can choose to sin when you are suffering, but you don't because you are so consumed with the suffering. Moderate suffering, you can still rail against God. But this kind of suffering, it will occupy you so fully that you won't.
So all those who have chosen their own way, God allows that, and they enter the only other destination there is, which was originally made for the devil and his angels. But just because God allows the results of their choice doesn't mean He will allow sin to continue eternally.
Much love!
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
In context…1 Peter 4:1-2…
”Since Christ suffered in the flesh, you too arm yourselves with the same mental disposition; because the person who has suffered in the flesh has desisted from sins, 2 so that he may live the remainder of his time in the flesh, no more for the desires of men, but for God’s will.”
Especially for the elect, time spent in the flesh would involve suffering because the devil will never allow God’s servants to have an easy life. We saw in Job’s case that satan has an ax to grind with those who maintain their faith under suffering. His aim was to use suffering to undermine Job’s faith, but he failed because Job did not crumble even after satan had robbed him of everything that meant something to him……even the physical pain of his condition, on top of the emotional pain of losing his children, did not cause Job to lose faith in God.
Suffering for the right reasons is a good reminder to stay on the path of righteousness and not allow sin to creep in….by feeling sorry for yourself.
That is not quite the way I read it….
What is this place that God has reserved for the devil and his angels? Is it not the “lake of fire”? (Gehenna)
This is a symbolic place, not a literal place where souls are tormented forever. The video showed us where the literal Gehenna is in Jerusalem…..but, of what was it a symbol? How did the Jews understand what Gehenna meant? Certainly not what Christendom made it out to be.
Of course not….Jesus came to eradicate sin and death so that these things will never plague mankind again.
God has given world rulership over to the devil to prove his assertions that Jehovah is not the loving God he makes himself out to be….(Luke 4:5-7)
And Job is there in the scriptures as an example of the kind of faith that we must have….
Job 2:3-6….
”And Jehovah said to Satan: “Have you taken note of my servant Job? There is no one like him on the earth. He is an upright man of integrity fearing God and shunning what is bad. He is still holding firmly to his integrity, even though you try to incite me against him to destroy him for no reason.” 4 But Satan answered Jehovah: “Skin for skin. A man will give everything that he has for his life. 5 But, for a change, stretch out your hand and strike his bone and flesh, and he will surely curse you to your very face.”
6 Then Jehovah said to Satan: “Look! He is in your hand! Only do not take his life!”
In this instance satan said….”A man will give everything that he has for his life”…he didn’t say Job would give everything he had to save his life…..but “a man” (any man) would do that. He would test the entire human race in this respect….causing loss and harm in order for the suffering to undermine faith in God…..Job is our shining example. Suffering for its own sake accomplishes nothing, but suffering because you are a faithful worshipper of Jehovah….that is what counts with God. (1 Peter 2:19-20)
So then you dont believe God:
Destroyed Sodom and Gamorrah and all the people therein?
Drowned Pharoah's army in the Red Sea?
Struck Judah's 2 eldest children dead for their wickedness?
Struck Ananaias and Sapphira dead for lying to the Holy Spirit?
The list goes on, but the point is that GOD IS NOT A HIPPIE! Nor is He a cosmic doormat. God loves us, yes, however, God is also Holy and Just. Those who choose wickedness over God WILL face His wrath and WILL be punished.
Don't believe God? - LOL (is your leather-bound god made of paper and ink?)
You forgot the global genocide of Noah's flood. That was a biggie.
As horrible as all these things are (which doesn't bother you in the least) they all pale in comparison to ECT.
That's my point. No earthly despot in history past or yet to come could top that.
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You are correct-- they don't bother me in the least. Who am I to have the preposterously unmitigated gall to presume to sit in judgment on the Lord?
Q
So you think Jesus was lying when HE spoke of hell and those going there being tormented for eternity?
Scriptures on hell
OLD TESTAMENT
Deuteronomy 32:22
For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
2 Samuel 22:6
The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;
Job 11:8
It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?
Job 26:6
hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering.
Psalms 9:17
The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.
Psalms 16:10
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Psalms 18:5
The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me.
Psalms 55:15
Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them.
Psalms 86:13
For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.
Psalms 116:3
The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow.
Psalms 139:8
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Proverb 5:5
Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell.
Proverb 7:27
Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death.
Proverb 9:18
But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell.
Proverb 15:11
hell and destruction are before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?
NEW TESTAMENT Matthew 5:22
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
NEW TESTAMENT
Matthew 5:29
And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Matthew 5:30
And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 11:23
And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Matthew 18:9
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
Matthew 23:15
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Matthew 23:33
Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mark 9:43
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mark 9:45
And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mark 9:47
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Mark 10:15
And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.
Luke 12:5
But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Luke 16:23
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Acts 2:27
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Acts 2:31
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
James 3:6
And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
2 Peter 2:4
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
Revelation 1:18
I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Revelation 6:8
And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
Revelation 20:13
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
the Bible warns of the eternity and permanency of hell!
everlasting fire ’ Matthew18:8, 25:41
everlasting punishment ’ Matthew 25:46
everlasting chains ’ Jude 1:6
eternal damnation ’ Mark 3:29
eternal judgment ’ Hebrews 6:2
eternal fire ’ Jude 1:7
unquenchable fire ’ Matthew 3:12
the fire that never shall be quenched ’ Mark 9:43, 44, 45, 46, 48
fire unquenchable ’ Luke 3:17
mist of darkness is reserved for ever ’ 2 Peter 2:17
the blackness of darkness for ever ’ Jude 1:13
Would you feel differently if you were one of the vast majority that God allegedly predestined to ECT?
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
No I don't think Jesus was lying, I believe that many misinterpret what the scriptures are saying because they do not do their homework thoroughly.
LOL....there is no "HELL" in the OT.
Lets see what these verses you quoted really say according to Jewish understanding of their own scripture....
All of these verses talk about "Sheol" which was understood by the Jews to mean simply "the grave". Please look up these verses in a Jewish Interlinear....Jews had no concept of life after death (no heaven or hell) because that was adopted later from platonic Greek ideas about the soul surviving death to live on in another realm. The Jews believed in physical resurrection, which was performed by Jesus and his apostles.....giving these people a return to human life.
Like Lazarus was raised back to his former life and reunited with his family. Where did Jesus say that Lazarus was? In heaven? Nope, Lazarus was still in his grave "sleeping" as he said, and Jesus called him out of his grave and gave him back his life. (John 11:11-14)
Again you have apparently done no homework on the actual words mistranslated as "hell" in these verses. Original language word studies make a world of difference to our understanding of what the Bible is actually saying. It allows us to view the verses as the ones addressed and the writers, would have understood them....not as Christendom has misinterpreted them.
There are two word translated as "hell" in these verses, neither of which even remotely speak of the 'eternal fiery torment' that is suggested by Christendom's biased scholars in these verses.
The first word is "hades" and from the Greek Septuagint Bible we see that "sheol" in Hebrew is translated as "hades" in Greek....so again no place of conscious torment, but simply "the grave".
The second word is "gehenna" which was the Valley of Hinnom outside the walls of Jerusalem, previously used by unfaithful Israelites to sacrifice their children in the fire to the false god Molech. God commanded that this abomination be stopped and that the valley be turned into a rubbish dump.
Fires were kept burning there day and night to speedily consume the garbage, by the addition of brimstone (sulfur). The carcasses of dead animals were thrown in there for disposal, as well as the bodies of executed criminals who were considered unworthy of a decent burial.
To Jesus' Jewish audience, for one to be consigned to "gehenna" meant no burial site with their name and lineage inscribed, and hence no way for God to revisit their graves in order to resurrect them (as Jesus had done with Lazarus). This ties in with John 5:28-29 where Jesus says that he will call all the dead from their graves. You have to understand that the Jews did not believe in heaven or hell as destinations for the dead....and Jesus' audience was exclusively Jewish. It was the pagan Greeks who believed in a fiery hell of punishment.
Gehenna is called "the second death" because it is a death, unlike the first that is reversible by resurrection...."the second death" is permanent...eternal death as opposed to eternal life. Anyone who thinks that a loving God could do that to his human creation is falling for the devil's propaganda in painting God as a cruel despot who simply demands performance...or else.
God says he derives no pleasure in the death of the wicked, much less wanting to torment them in flames for all eternity.
Under God's law the highest penalty paid for any crime was death...no punishment involved torture of any kind and the punishment was always in keeping with the severity of the offense committed. Those punished for lesser crimes had to compensate their victims so justice was always served correctly. What justice is there in serving a sentence that affords no opportunity for repentance?
Through his prophet Ezekiel God said...
“As I am alive,” is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, “I take delight, not in the death of the wicked one, but in that someone wicked turns back from his way and actually keeps living. Turn back, turn back from your bad ways, for why is it that you should die, O house of Israel?” (Ezekiel 33: 10-11) It is God's desire that the wicked turn back and be saved....if they do not he will punish them with death. That's it.
This "everlasting fire" was symbolized by the flames of "gehenna" never going out, (unquenchable fire) and what the flames missed, the maggots finished off (the worms that never die)....it was symbolic of being cast off by God into everlasting death..."the second death".
There is no such thing as "eternal damnation" as an eternal conscious punishment.....eternal death IS an eternal punishment, and for God this is enough of a penalty against the wicked. He has no use for them so he simply eliminates them from existence...why does he need to do more for justice to be served?
Rockerduck
Well-Known Member
You cannot use your finite mind to know our infinite God. All of God ways are just and His thoughts are higher than our thoughts. Jesus said there is a hell with an unquenchable fire, and I'll just have to believe it.
If there is a hell (ECT), then God's thoughts are LOWER than our thoughts, NOT higher.
/ cc: @Aunty Jane
Well deception is as deception does!
When the future gets here, you'll see that hell is a real place and you shouldn't have listened to those that were teaching error on this subject!
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