Tongues and Related Issues

[Pearl]

Personal testimonies are personal testimonies. But since Christ appeared to over five hundred disciples altogether (including Peter, James, and Paul), His resurrection became an accepted FACT (see 1 Cor 15). And since it was recorded in Scripture -- the Word of God -- it became INDISPUTABLE fact. Christ's death, burial, and resurrection are the foundation of the Gospel and the basis for our salvation.

. Christ's death, burial, and resurrection are the foundation of the Gospel and the basis for our salvation.

Absolutely true.
So how many people does it take to testify to praying in tongues before it becomes an 'INDISPUTABLE' fact?

 

[amadeus]

On the other hand, Scripture is objective truth -- God's truth. Therefore if tongues were a prayer language, every Christian would be praying in tongues, since God is no respecter of persons. But the Bible does not teach that.

No, the Word of God is objective truth, God's truth. The scripture, misunderstood or misinterpreted is a subjective thing and is NOT the Word of God.

God being not respecter of persons does not mean we are all exactly alike. We will be distinctive parts of the Body of Christ with different functions as per I Cor chapter 12.
God being no respecter of persons means He will fairly judge people according to what they have been given and what they have done with what they have been given. This is clarified by Jesus here:

"But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." Luke 12:48

Simply stated: "much is given... much is required".

But the Pentecostal doctrine of being filled with the Spirit requires that ALL will speak in tongues after that baptism.

I have not supported that doctrine on this thread which I started, so I don't understand why you brought it.

 

[Waiting on him]

Absolutely true.
So how many people does it take to testify to praying in tongues before it becomes an 'INDISPUTABLE' fact?

This would only take the testimony of one.

 

[Enoch111]

So how many people does it take to testify to praying in tongues before it becomes an 'INDISPUTABLE' fact?

Since the MAJORITY of genuine Christians do not speak in tongues, that should be the fact that the baptism with the Spirit does not produce the phenomenon of tongues. But we have to allow the Pentecostals and Charismatics to hold to their beliefs, since all must eventually give account to God alone.

 

[amadeus]

1 Corinthians 10:17 KJV
[17] For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.


Tecarta BibleHurts me, you say I’m not part of that body.

No, I never said that and I am not saying it now. It is not part of my job description from God to decide who is or who is not part of the Body of Christ.

 

[Enoch111]

I have not supported that doctrine on this thread which I started, so I don't understand why you brought it.

Since modern tongues originated with the Pentecostals in the early 20th century, we need to keep their doctrines in view when this subject is under discussion. Whether you like it or not it is a Pentecostal doctrine.

 

[Enoch111]

God being not respecter of persons does not mean we are all exactly alike. We will be distinctive parts of the Body of Christ with different functions as per I Cor chapter 12.

And that is exactly what I have said. Which also means that not ALL will speak in tongues. But once it becomes a requirement to determine if one is Spirit-filled, it changes everything.

 

[Waiting on him]

Since modern tongues originated with the Pentecostals in the early 20th century, we need to keep their doctrines in view when this subject is under discussion. Whether you like it or not it is a Pentecostal doctrine.

It was around when Jesus was climbing the mountains of Judea.

 

[amadeus]

Since the MAJORITY of genuine Christians do not speak in tongues, that should be the fact that the baptism with the Spirit does not produce the phenomenon of tongues. But we have to allow the Pentecostals and Charismatics to hold to their beliefs, since all must eventually give account to God alone.

Since when did the majority decide what is God's Way and what is not? Since of the 7.7 billion people on planet Earth about 2/3 are NOT even designated a Christian should we scrap the Bible and all of Christianity with it? We certainly don't have a majority!

 

[amadeus]

And that is exactly what I have said. Which also means that not ALL will speak in tongues. But once it becomes a requirement to determine if one is Spirit-filled, it changes everything.

You are still arguing against me for something I did not say. If you do not understand my position, please re-read what I have posted. Go argue with some Pentecostals who believe that.

 

[amadeus]

Since modern tongues originated with the Pentecostals in the early 20th century, we need to keep their doctrines in view when this subject is under discussion. Whether you like it or not it is a Pentecostal doctrine.

If that is what it means to be a Pentecostal then I am not one. This thread was started by me to explain my position and belief, not what some official Pentecostal group believes.

 

[Enoch111]

It was around when Jesus was climbing the mountains of Judea.

Really? Why don't you quote chapter and verse?

The modern Pentecostal Movement began with Bethel Bible College in Topeka, Kansas: "...On January 3, 1901, many people reported experiencing baptism in the Holy Spirit evidenced by speaking in tongues, including Parham...Support from the student body wasn’t unanimous. Some even left the college. The community of Topeka was suspicious as well. The newspaper, The Topeka Capital, used skeptical phraseology as they reported the events: “strange goings on,” “strange religious body,” “strange feature of faith,” and "senseless gibberish.”...
History of Pentecostalism

You will not find any teaching on tongues (as currently understood) among the Reformers, and not even in the Catholic or Orthodox churches.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I am simply asking for you guys to address what Christ said, what Christ described. Christ said He had to leave before the Holy Spirit could come. He also said that He would come again. So do you think Christ's return will only be that you will feel His love, an indescribable feeling. The problem is when you try to give klondike explanations to explain away the scriptures, it hurts the meaning of other scriptures. What Christ said was clear enough.

Will consider...don’t have an answer.

 

[Waiting on him]

Really? Why don't you quote chapter and verse?

The modern Pentecostal Movement began with Bethel Bible College in Topeka, Kansas: "...On January 3, 1901, many people reported experiencing baptism in the Holy Spirit evidenced by speaking in tongues, including Parham...Support from the student body wasn’t unanimous. Some even left the college. The community of Topeka was suspicious as well. The newspaper, The Topeka Capital, used skeptical phraseology as they reported the events: “strange goings on,” “strange religious body,” “strange feature of faith,” and "senseless gibberish.”...
History of Pentecostalism

You will not find any teaching on tongues (as currently understood) among the Reformers, and not even in the Catholic or Orthodox churches.

Matthew 6:7 KJV
[7] But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do : for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.


Tecarta Bible

 

[Grailhunter]

Since the MAJORITY of genuine Christians do not speak in tongues, that should be the fact that the baptism with the Spirit does not produce the phenomenon of tongues. But we have to allow the Pentecostals and Charismatics to hold to their beliefs, since all must eventually give account to God alone.

Wrong reasoning. Do you know that all of the protestants denominations combined, are the minority compared to the Catholics. Does that rational mean we should disregard the beliefs of all Protestants?

 

[Enoch111]

Wrong reasoning. Do you know that all of the protestants denominations combined, are the minority compared to the Catholics. Does that rational mean we should disregard the beliefs of all Protestants?

Not wrong reasoning at all. When you combine the non-Charismatic Catholics, with the non-Charismatics Orthodox plus all the other non-Charismatic Christians, the number of Pentecostals and Charismatics is minor.

"According to the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life, in 2010, there were 2.2 billion Christians of all ages living in the world." (let's assume this is reasonably accurate, and based only upon those who say they are Christians. Only God knows hearts).
Essential Stats and Facts About Christianity Today

"According to a Pew Forum analysis of estimates from the Center for the Study of Global Christianity (CSGC) at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, there are about 279 million pentecostal Christians and 305 million charismatic Christians in the world. (For definitions, see Defining Christian Movements.) This means that, according to this analysis, pentecostal and charismatic Christians together make up about 27% of all Christians and more than 8% of the world’s total population."
Christian Movements and Denominations

For the sake of discussion let's make that 25% (to be conservative). Which means that 75% of Christians worldwide are NOT Pentecostals or Charismatics. I rest my case.

 

[Enoch111]

Matthew 6:7 KJV
[7] But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do : for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

What does this have to do with anything under discussion here? The heathen are excluded automatically.

 

[Waiting on him]

What does this have to do with anything under discussion here? The heathen are excluded automatically.

Not so quick, the heathen are gentiles.

 

[Grailhunter]

Not wrong reasoning at all. When you combine the non-Charismatic Catholics, with the non-Charismatics Orthodox plus all the other non-Charismatic Christians, the number of Pentecostals and Charismatics is minor.

"According to the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life, in 2010, there were 2.2 billion Christians of all ages living in the world." (let's assume this is reasonably accurate, and based only upon those who say they are Christians. Only God knows hearts).
Essential Stats and Facts About Christianity Today

"According to a Pew Forum analysis of estimates from the Center for the Study of Global Christianity (CSGC) at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, there are about 279 million pentecostal Christians and 305 million charismatic Christians in the world. (For definitions, see Defining Christian Movements.) This means that, according to this analysis, pentecostal and charismatic Christians together make up about 27% of all Christians and more than 8% of the world’s total population."
Christian Movements and Denominations

For the sake of discussion let's make that 25% (to be conservative). Which means that 75% of Christians worldwide are NOT Pentecostals or Charismatics. I rest my case.

A point that I am not going to spend much time on..This is not my tally...worldwide...
Rank Christian Denomination Members
1 Catholic Church 1,285,000,000
2 Protestantism 920,000,000
3 Anglicanism 85,000,000
4 Eastern Orthodox Church 270,000,000

 

[Waiting on him]

Not so quick, the heathen are gentiles.

Greek: βαττολογέω
Transliteration: battologeō
Pronunciation: bat-tol-og-eh'-o
Definition: From Βάττος Battos (a proverbial stammerer) and G3056; to stutter that is (by implication) to prate tediously: - use vain repetitions.This is all I see now days