Tongues

[jaybird]

So how do you continue to intercede for someone in need when you run out of natural language to express your burden for them? Then again, maybe you never receive a burden of intercession for anyone, and are pretty well content with a short prayer and leave it at that.

the spirit can give you all the strength you need. how is praying in my common language, the way Jesus taught to pray, different than praying in the angel language?

 

[jaybird]

As you know from my book, their understanding was not necessarily that you were speaking their language, but that they understood supernaturally by the gift of interpretation of tongues. They HEARD their own language. There was a girl in Arizona that understood the "babbling," but as English, when every other person of our language just heard tongues.

cc: @jaybird

there is no way to know that, if only one person can understand the babbling, how do you know? maybe it was real but in the next church over they might have the exact same thing going down only this time one person babbles, another person cries out "thats my language but only i can understand, but its all a lie just to put on a show.
the bible teaches us to test all things only this one thing can not be tested.

 

[Paul Christensen]

one thing Paul does not say in 1 Cor 14 is that he is speaking a spirit language. your inserting your own wishful thinking into the text.

rather than just call me a dummy and make wild claims that i just dont know how to read, why dont you put your money where your mouth is and prove me wrong.
speaking in tongues inside a church or outside a church really has nothing to do with what i said so i have no idea what your going on about with that one.

lets go back to this one:

same question to you, do you have an answer or just gonna call me names?

You said it yourself: "I don't understand tongues". If you have visited a Pentecostal meeting and concluded that those who are "babbling", then Paul describes you as someone uninitiated in the things of the Holy Spirit.

I've heard people like you many times before. I'm an old warrior in the faith, since 1966. I've heard all the nonsense spouted by those prejudiced against tongues. You are saying nothing different to what I have been hearing over 53 years. Nothing I have heard has ever convinced me that 1 Corinthians 14 is not relevant for today. All the Pentecostal bashing I have heard has only gone to show that the attackers have decided to "vote out" 1 Corinthians 14 as applicable to modern churches. Paul gives precise teaching about it, but religious prejudice blinds people to what he is actually saying, and tries to put words into Paul's mouth that aren't there, and ignores words that are there.

So I don't care if you get your nose out of joint over what I am saying. I am saying the truth, and you need to get right with God and obey His Word.

 

[CharismaticLady]

there is no way to know that, if only one person can understand the babbling, how do you know? maybe it was real but in the next church over they might have the exact same thing going down only this time one person babbles, another person cries out "thats my language but only i can understand, but its all a lie just to put on a show.
the bible teaches us to test all things only this one thing can not be tested.

Only one person needs to have the gift of interpretation in a meeting, as Paul says 2 or 3 speak, and ONE INTERPRET.

 

[Paul Christensen]

there is no way to know that, if only one person can understand the babbling, how do you know? maybe it was real but in the next church over they might have the exact same thing going down only this time one person babbles, another person cries out "thats my language but only i can understand, but its all a lie just to put on a show.
the bible teaches us to test all things only this one thing can not be tested.

Yes. The Bible does say that test all things and hold fast to what is good. But what is the basis of the testing? God's Word. And what part of God's Word deals with tongues? 1 Corinthians 14. So, to test whether tongues in a church is genuine, one has to go back to 1 Corinthians 14 and test it on that basis.

But what test have you applied to tongues? Doesn't seem that you are testing it according to 1 Corinthians 14, but on your own observations, learning, and personal wisdom. Really, is your testing on that basis reliable? That is the question.

 

[jaybird]

You said it yourself: "I don't understand tongues". If you have visited a Pentecostal meeting and concluded that those who are "babbling", then Paul describes you as someone uninitiated in the things of the Holy Spirit.

I've heard people like you many times before. I'm an old warrior in the faith, since 1966. I've heard all the nonsense spouted by those prejudiced against tongues. You are saying nothing different to what I have been hearing over 53 years. Nothing I have heard has ever convinced me that 1 Corinthians 14 is not relevant for today. All the Pentecostal bashing I have heard has only gone to show that the attackers have decided to "vote out" 1 Corinthians 14 as applicable to modern churches. Paul gives precise teaching about it, but religious prejudice blinds people to what he is actually saying, and tries to put words into Paul's mouth that aren't there, and ignores words that are there.

So I don't care if you get your nose out of joint over what I am saying. I am saying the truth, and you need to get right with God and obey His Word.

your right, i dont understand, because to me if it was a divine gift from the heavens that should make these simple questions more than easy to answer, but they never get answered.

 

[Paul Christensen]

one thing Paul does not say in 1 Cor 14 is that he is speaking a spirit language. your inserting your own wishful thinking into the text.

rather than just call me a dummy and make wild claims that i just dont know how to read, why dont you put your money where your mouth is and prove me wrong.
speaking in tongues inside a church or outside a church really has nothing to do with what i said so i have no idea what your going on about with that one.

lets go back to this one:

same question to you, do you have an answer or just gonna call me names?

1 Corinthians 14:2. Read it carefully. Apply 5th Grade comprehension to it and see what it actually says.

 

[Paul Christensen]

the spirit can give you all the strength you need. how is praying in my common language, the way Jesus taught to pray, different than praying in the angel language?

Who says it is angel language? Are you misquoting Paul?

 

[jaybird]

Only one person needs to have the gift of interpretation in a meeting, as Paul says 2 or 3 speak, and ONE INTERPRET.

im not sure thats what Paul is saying. if anyone can do this it doesnt sound like a divine gift from the heavens.

 

[jaybird]

Yes. The Bible does say that test all things and hold fast to what is good. But what is the basis of the testing? God's Word. And what part of God's Word deals with tongues? 1 Corinthians 14. So, to test whether tongues in a church is genuine, one has to go back to 1 Corinthians 14 and test it on that basis.

But what test have you applied to tongues? Doesn't seem that you are testing it according to 1 Corinthians 14, but on your own observations, learning, and personal wisdom. Really, is your testing on that basis reliable? That is the question.

what it means is that me and a friend can go infront of a group, one babbles and the other tells them to drink the koolaid. how are they to know this command didnt come from the heavens?

 

[Paul Christensen]

Only one person needs to have the gift of interpretation in a meeting, as Paul says 2 or 3 speak, and ONE INTERPRET.

Your response to my experience of someone understanding what I was praying in tongues makes sense and is quite reasonable.

 

[jaybird]

1 Corinthians 14:2. Read it carefully. Apply 5th Grade comprehension to it and see what it actually says.

it says tongue (language)

Who says it is angel language? Are you misquoting Paul?

are you talking about a real language of this world?

 

[Paul Christensen]

your right, i dont understand, because to me if it was a divine gift from the heavens that should make these simple questions more than easy to answer, but they never get answered.

The Scripture says that faith comes by hearing the Word of God. So, faith concerning the teaching and use of the gift of tongues comes from reading and studying 1 Corinthians 14 and asking the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth of it.

Faith doesn't come by attending a Pentecostal meeting, hearing people praying and praising in tongues, and trying to understand it. Your only reaction would be that these people are a sandwich short of a picnic and are just babbling. So, your response is understandable.

I don't mean to insult you or call you names. It is just that I refuse to compromise on tongues, because I have been praying in tongues and English since 1966, and have considered everything said against it over the years, but at the same time, have heard and read many testimonies that prove it as absolutely a real "tool" of the Spirit. My experience of having speaking in tongues understood has been repeated by people all over the world, as well as in Church history through the centuries.

 

[Paul Christensen]

it says tongue (language)


are you talking about a real language of this world?

Why not? There are multitudes of testimonies of native speakers of a language hearing someone speaking in their language when speaking in tongues. I am not talking about the "ba ba sha wa" stuff that some speak. True tongues is a deliberately spoken articulate language properly constructed and spoken with expression, because it is a language spoken directly to God. You will note that those speaking in tongues out loud in church meetings without interpretation are disobeying God's Word as Paul taught it in 1 Corinthians 14. So I can believe that much that you hear spoken in meetings could very well be of the flesh because the Holy Spirit will support only total obedience to God's Word.

 

[CharismaticLady]

im not sure thats what Paul is saying. if anyone can do this it doesnt sound like a divine gift from the heavens.

What do you mean, anyone? The gift of interpretation of tongues is usually given to at least one who is the interpreter of tongues in the congregation and has received the gift of supernatural interpretation of tongues (either tongues, but always the gift of diverse kinds of tongues). But the Spirit can use any of His gifts to draw someone to Christ, like the 3000 devout Jews on the Day of Pentecost.

Not everyone can speak in tongues, only those who are born again, and all who believe have this ability whether you know it or not. Paul wishes that they all would speak in tongues as they are under our control to speak or not to speak. That is the sign gift of Mark 16:16-18.

There is another gift of tongues that only a few have, and the difference is the direction. Mark 16 is a prayer language TO God. 1 Cor. 12 is an office. Those with the office of receiving messages FROM God that they know to speak in tongues do so for the profit of all in the congregation meeting. Interpretation of tongues is also an office, and they hear the tongues in their own personal language and speak it forth for everyone's benefit. However, even though these are offices, the Spirit can make anyone understand the interpretation at His discretion - like to the 3000 devout Jews listening on the Day of Pentecost HEARD all of them speaking in their own individual languages.

This is why 1 Corinthians 14:30 says "do all speak in tongues (office, messages FROM God), do all interpret (office). The answer is no. But all who believe receive the prayer and praise language of speaking in tongues of Mark 16.

 

[jaybird]

Why not? There are multitudes of testimonies of native speakers of a language hearing someone speaking in their language when speaking in tongues. I am not talking about the "ba ba sha wa" stuff that some speak. True tongues is a deliberately spoken articulate language properly constructed and spoken with expression, because it is a language spoken directly to God. You will note that those speaking in tongues out loud in church meetings without interpretation are disobeying God's Word as Paul taught it in 1 Corinthians 14. So I can believe that much that you hear spoken in meetings could very well be of the flesh because the Holy Spirit will support only total obedience to God's Word.

ok then we are not even talking about the same thing then. i am talking about the angel / spirit, ba ba sha wa. i am not talking about real languages. this is like the 5th time i have said that.

 

[jaybird]

Not everyone can speak in tongues, only those who are born again, and all who believe have this ability whether you know it or not. Paul wishes that they all would speak in tongues as they are under our control to speak or not to speak. That is the sign gift of Mark 16:16-18.

this is incorrect, anyone that has speech can can start babbling, claim they are speaking in the "spirit tongues" and there is no way you would ever know.

There is another gift of tongues that only a few have, and the difference is the direction. Mark 16 is a prayer language TO God. 1 Cor. 12 is an office. Those with the office of receiving messages FROM God that they know to speak in tongues do so for the profit of all in the congregation meeting. Interpretation of tongues is also an office, and they hear the tongues in their own personal language and speak it forth for everyone's benefit. However, even though these are offices, the Spirit can make anyone understand the interpretation at His discretion - like to the 3000 devout Jews listening on the Day of Pentecost HEARD all of them speaking in their own individual languages.

This is why 1 Corinthians 14:30 says "do all speak in tongues (office, messages FROM God), do all interpret (office). The answer is no. But all who believe receive the prayer and praise language of speaking in tongues of Mark 16.

the prayer language this is an interesting one. so lets say you have two sick kids, both moms kneel down to pray, one mom prays in her common language they way Jesus teaches, the other mom prays in the spirit prayer language. which prayer does the Lord hear? which child gets helped?

 

[CharismaticLady]

this is incorrect, anyone that has speech can can start babbling, claim they are speaking in the "spirit tongues" and there is no way you would ever know.

Don't confuse the real from the fake. I was talking about the real, and you responded about the fake to discredit the real.

Fake tongues are not "speaking in tongues" that are legitimate. That is why I told Paul C. that the interpretation proved that the tongues he spoke were legitimate. As for fake tongues you mentioned, I can tell the difference between them and the real gift of tongues. And I'm afraid there are those who "try" to speak in tongues before they are even born again. Their zeal would produce fake tongues of the flesh, not the Holy Spirit - but NOT of another spirit though either as mockers try to accuse. It is ironic that mocker are the ones not of God. Psalms 1:1

I'll say it again, you must be born again of the Spirit to receive any signs or gifts of the Spirit. But anyone who has actually been initially baptized in the Spirit (born again) is given the authorities of Mark 16 for individual use, Acts 2. The gifts of 1 Cor. 12 usually require a second filling of the Spirit - or release of power for the profit of all - for ministry, Acts 4:29-31. Personally, I received both fillings at once when I was born again on Feb. 9, 1977.

What Paul C. was speaking was the gift of diverse kinds of tongues that require interpretation (1 Cor. 12). But our prayer language does not require interpretation as it is prayer and only meant for God's ears. That is why in Mark 16:16-18 interpretation is not mentioned. It is not required. But in 1 Cor. 12 diverse kinds of tongues is mentioned along with interpretation of tongues. You see there are many that erroneous demand that our prayer language is not real unless it is interpreted. That is just ignorance of the difference between the two different kinds of speaking in tongues and the difference between the direction for our personal use, and what is a message from God that requires interpretation for the profit of all.

 

[CharismaticLady]

the prayer language this is an interesting one. so lets say you have two sick kids, both moms kneel down to pray, one mom prays in her common language they way Jesus teaches, the other mom prays in the spirit prayer language. which prayer does the Lord hear? which child gets helped?

The one who knows who she is in Jesus and commands by faith the sickness to leave in the name of Jesus.

Tongues are for when you DON'T know the will of God. It is perfect prayer according to the perfect will of God.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Not everyone can speak in tongues, only those who are born again, and all who believe have this ability whether you know it or not. Paul wishes that they all would speak in tongues as they are under our control to speak or not to speak. That is the sign gift of Mark 16:16-18.

There is another gift of tongues that only a few have, and the difference is the direction. Mark 16 is a prayer language TO God. 1 Cor. 12 is an office. Those with the office of receiving messages FROM God that they know to speak in tongues do so for the profit of all in the congregation meeting. Interpretation of tongues is also an office, and they hear the tongues in their own personal language and speak it forth for everyone's benefit. However, even though these are offices, the Spirit can make anyone understand the interpretation at His discretion - like to the 3000 devout Jews listening on the Day of Pentecost HEARD all of them speaking in their own individual languages.

This is why 1 Corinthians 14:30 says "do all speak in tongues (office, messages FROM God), do all interpret (office). The answer is no. But all who believe receive the prayer and praise language of speaking in tongues of Mark 16.

Just to add to your enjoyable post.
If we carefully examine the context of why Paul asked the question "do all speak in tongues?" he is reminding us of what he said in 1 Corinthians 12 about the body of Christ being made up of many parts. Therefore his questions to ministry in the church. He could also ask, "Is everyone the pastor?' or "Is everyone a musician?" In this sense when he asks the question about tongues he is talking about the ministry gift of tongues in the church context.

But when he is saying, "I would you all spoke in tongues", and "I thank God I speak in tongues more than you all", he is not speaking of the ministry gift of tongues that is in tandem with interpretation of tongues. He is talking about personal prayer in tongues when he is alone with God. It makes sense, really, because why should he say, "I would that you all spoke with tongues" if he has already said that speaking with tongues in church is pointless because no one understands and therefore is not built up? And when he says, "I thank God I speak in tongues more than you all", if he spoke it in church more than all of them who were speaking in tongues in the meetings, wouldn't he be contradicting his own instructions?

Of course, you and I would see that quite clearly, but one who is prejudiced against tongues would not want to use basic comprehension because taking that sort of intelligent approach to what Paul is actually saying would cause his opposition to tongues go down like the Hindenburg - in flames!

Oh! Consistency in comprehension, thou art a jewel!!