Tongues

[Waiting on him]

Maybe

So? Just quoting a single verse of Scripture without giving any kind of exposition is pretty well meaningless. How does this verse support your view that tongues is not for modern churches?

You didn't quote verse 21 in which Paul gives the reason why.

So it looks like just quoting verse 22 on its own is an attempt to twist the Scripture to mean something that it doesn't. Paul is not quoting verse 21 and saying verse 22 to discount tongues. He is supporting the fact that when unbelievers hear believers speaking in tongues (ie: using the ministry gift along with interpretation in church) it is a sign of impending judgment on them and the urgent need to get right with God.

you could answer a question for me since you seem to be the local tongues authority. Why is it you only see the alleged tongues spoken in only a distinct religious sect?

 

[Waiting on him]

Looks as if only Pentecostal affiliates speak in tongues. The gifts of the Spirit the way I understand are for the whole body, why is it so isolated to one group?
Could this mean that only the Pentecostals are the elect of God?

 

[Waiting on him]

Maybe it’s kinda like it is with Verizon and Sprint, you know how one will say we have the best/better plan because they want your business.
The more customers the more $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$!!!!!!!

 

[Paul Christensen]

Maybe

you could answer a question for me since you seem to be the local tongues authority. Why is it you only see the alleged tongues spoken in only a distinct religious sect?

I don't see myself as the local authority on tongues. I'm just a guy with a Bible.
Firstly, the gift of tongues is specified in 1 Corinthians 12, and the appropriate use of the gift is set out in 1 Corinthians 14. Seeing that Paul wrote 1 Corinthians with the intention that it was for all believers everywhere, he wasn't limiting what he taught just to the Corinthian believers. So Paul wasn't limiting his teaching to just one church but all churches across the board.

So the gift of tongues is not limited to just one religious sect but is available to all believers everywhere regardless of denomination or faith group.

It is just that it looks more prominent in Pentecostal and Charismatic groups because of the practice of speaking tongues out loud in fellowship meetings. Something, by the way, Paul did not recommend. The truth is, that believers of all denominations are known to have and use the gift of tongues, but they don't speak it in fellowship meetings in accordance with Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 14. They use it in their private prayer times where God is the sole listener. This is why the practice of speaking in tongues is not apparent in believers outside of the Pentecostal churches.

Of course, like any gift of the Spirit, it can be misused and abused, and we do see a lot of that especially in the WOF "name and claim" type churches. Also, tongues is misused as a type of sorcery in the belief that if one speaks in tongues over a person while praying for them, some sort of effect will be produced. Of course, people also use prayer in the same way, like casting a spell on a person by saying, "I will pray for you" in order to get that person to do what they want them to do. Or, in some churches where people, "pray the pastor out" if they don't like him, thinking that their prayers in this way will get God to make him resign. All this type of praying and use of tongues is nothing but witchcraft.

But true prayer, with the understanding, and with tongues, is nothing more than making requests to God according to His will. It puts their case to God and leaves it to Him. Praying in tongues can be in the form of intercession, or praising the mighty works of God as personal worship.

But in the church fellowship meetings, speaking in the common language of the people is much more beneficial and upbuilding, and that is what Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 14. I would say that most Pentecostals and Charismatics would say the same thing. I don't think that a church should be judged on the lunatic fringe pelicans that might attend it.

 

[Triumph1300]

But that's basically one person with the spirit (claiming the spirit) saying yes and another with the spirit saying no

No troller, that's not true.

 

[jaybird]

It's like any skill that one has never learned. If the skill is not used, it is of no purpose to the person. Before I learned to play the guitar, the instrument was of no use to me, and there was no purpose in it for me. But when I learned to play it 53 years ago, it has served a very useful purpose and has been a blessing to me and others.

The Scripture says that when a person speaks in tongues they build themselves up. Jude expresses it further when he says that when we pray in the Spirit, we build ourselves up in our most holy faith. But if Paul is saying that speaking in tongues is not recommended in fellowship meetings where no one is built up except the individual himself, then, because he fully supports speaking in tongues, then the building up takes place in the individual's private prayer times. But of course, if the person cannot speak in tongues, he will never be built up in that way. He would have to depend on his own limited form of expression.

Hearing others speaking in tongues in a fellowship service would serve no purpose for the listeners because they wouldn't understand what is being spoken. No surprises there. That is why Paul recommended that tongues not be spoken in fellowship meetings. But he never prohibited speaking in tongues to God during private prayer when others were not around to hear him.

Whether a purpose is served by speaking in tongues, has to be determine by the person who is doing the speaking, not by some observer who knows little or nothing about the gift and how it affects the person using it. It's like me watching a musician playing the Russian Balalaika. It might serve a purpose for the musician, but not much for me because I can't play one, and can't see how one can get much out of playing a three stringed instrument.

the skill to play the guitar benefits your guitar playing. its more than just saying your playing is better, before you could oly play one song, after you can play two songs, improved. you can see the improvement as the difference between one song and two songs.

Jude does not say praying in a spirit language, he says praying in spirit.

if i am the one speaking in tongues and i am the one benefiting, i would hope i could explain how, if i cant explain that than i am not improved, i am just talking about being improved.

 

[jaybird]

If I'm in a fellowship meeting, I wouldn't be listening to others if they were speaking in tongues, because what they were speaking would have no meaning for me at all. And Paul did not recommend speaking in tongues during fellowship meetings without an interpreter, so it would be understandable that the speech would sound like gibberish, just the same as me hearing Hindi or Mandarin speakers as I travelled to work on the bus. So just because a language sounds like babbling gibberish doesn't mean that it is not an understandable language. Paul is quite definite when he says that speaking in tongues in a fellowship meeting is speaking into the air, because it would have no purpose for the group as a whole. But that doesn't mean that the tongues language is entirely meaningless, because the speaking is speaking to God, who understands it. It is only meaningless to the group because no one in the group understands it.

But if a person is speaking to God in tongues whether in the fellowship meeting or in private prayer, to say it has no purpose at all, is to assert that it has no purpose for the Lord who hears and understands it. I wouldn't be so arrogant as to make that assertion.

the interpreter is for foreign language of this world. its not a message from the heavens in a spirit language. a message from the heavens is called prophecy and it is done through prophets.
if its a message from the heavens in a spirit language, its still prophecy. which does not add up because that would mean the spiritual gifts are healing, language, prophecy and prophecy? why prophecy twice? see the problem.

 

[jaybird]

No troller, that's not true.

are you understanding what i am saying?
you dont use the spirit to manipulate the decisions of other people, this does not work. if someone is speaking in tongues, i dont think they are real, you cant prove them real by saying you have the spirit, therefore they are real, all someone has to do to debunk this is come right along behind you and say nope, they are false because the spirit told me so.
does it make sense now?

 

[Cooper]

i never said Jesus didnt send the spirit. you are aware that spirit does not mean spirit language right?
lets go back to this one because im not sure you realize what you said.



Jesus spoke in Hebrew, His common language, please explain how Jesus drowns out the spirit by doing this.

The Holy Spirit transcends earthly things. Read John 14:26 and surrounding verses. Look, I am not going to enter into a lengthy debate with someone who in this regard is an atheist, so I am content to leave it to the working of the Holy Spirit.
.

 

[Triumph1300]

are you understanding what i am saying?
you dont use the spirit to manipulate the decisions of other people, this does not work. if someone is speaking in tongues, i dont think they are real, you cant prove them real by saying you have the spirit, therefore they are real, all someone has to do to debunk this is come right along behind you and say nope, they are false because the spirit told me so.
does it make sense now?



I know exactly what you are trying, Troller.
Reading a couple of pages full of your posts I decided to classify you as a Troller .
I am done here, not wasting anymore time here on somebody who just wants to troll and keep people occupied.

I am finished talking to you.

 

[jaybird]

The Holy Spirit transcends earthly things. Read John 14:26 and surrounding verses. Look, I am not going to enter into a lengthy debate with someone who in this regard is an atheist, so I am content to leave it to the working of the Holy Spirit.
.

This is why people do not believe in this, you guys can't answer simple questions and you make statements that Jesus "drowns" out the spirit whatever that's supposed to mean.

 

[jaybird]

In the end this is what you guys always do, you get exposes and then throw a fit. Calling me ugly names is not gonna make this doctrine come true, your still gonna have all the problems that I pointed out maybe rather than get mad, I would go back and take a closer look at this whole thing and ask myself if it's really biblical then why can't I back it up when challenged.

 

[jaybird]

Maybe

you could answer a question for me since you seem to be the local tongues authority. Why is it you only see the alleged tongues spoken in only a distinct religious sect?

Yes that's one of many red flags. There should be a few tongues speakers in ever denomination. We should also see a few foreigne language people every once in a while, but there never is. However you can't fake a foreign language.

 

[NayborBear]

The bottom line is that Paul taught that speaking in a way that everyone can understand what is being said is more appropriate in fellowship meetings than speaking in foreign languages that people cannot understand. When he uses the word "prophesy" he is including teaching, instruction, as well as prophetic utterances. His view of church meetings is people are gathered for fellowship and instruction (not for all the ceremonial fiddle faddle that take up most church programmed services).

Our church once had combined meetings with the Korean congregation that met in our church building. When the Korean pastor preached in Korean, it was great for the Koreans, but useless for our congregation. Most of the Koreans understood English so when our minister preached, it was just as encouraging for them as for us. It would have been better if there was an English interpreter working alongside the Korean preacher. So this is what Paul was saying, if someone speaks with a foreign language in church, there should be an interpreter so that everyone can understand what is being said.

This is the main point of 1 Corinthians 14, and Paul wrote it to deal with a specific issue that was happening in the Corinthian church. That is why he said that prophecy is the better gift for the fellowship meeting. He says, "I thank God I speak with tongues more than you all, however, when I come into a fellowship meeting, I would rather speak so that everyone can understand me. (my paraphrase).

So it is obvious that Paul spoke in tongues frequently, but not in the fellowship meetings. That is abundantly clear. He also said, "I would that you all spoke with tongues" and I would add but not when you fellowship together. He also said that when folk spoke in tongues, they gave thanks to God well. What he is saying is that when people speak in tongues they are praising God in the right way, but if it is done in the fellowship meetings, it is in the wrong place, because no one understands the language, so it is better to praise God in a language that everyone understands so they can add their "amen" to the praise.

The problem myself and others see is the pert near a/the self righteous contentedness/arrogance that people who speak in tongues display/project. When we are told/taught/URGED by Paul there are more better/higher "gifts", that no one appears to be earnestly possessing/coveting!
And? An overly (overtly) display of resistance by the "gathered throng/assembly of believers" of remaining that way, by ones from the pulpit preaching/teaching them that it's OK to stay that way!

 

[JunChosen]

By following the Berean example, who "searched the Scriptures daily to see if these things be so".

Soundness of doctrine comes out of forming opinions and principles out of what the Bible actually says.

ERROR - Soundness of doctrine does NOT come out from forming opinions but from every word of God.

Take this thread for example, the reason so many are confused about tongues is because none bother to examine the meaning of what it is, reason why God gave this phenomenon to the church of Corinth only, and what was God's purpose?

Reminds me when Jesus came to earth to the Nation of Israel and told them He was the Messiah and no one believed Him, just as no one believes a true believer when he comes with the truth!.

The truth of 1 Corinthians Chapter 14 is this:... and, READ MY LIPS!

Note that the Bible was not yet complete when Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, wrote 1 Corinthians 14, BECAUSE God still had additional revelation (verse 6) for mankind, by giving the gift of a heavenly language called tongues to an individual in a church setting for edification, and to another the gift of interpretation. And, if no interpreter, the one who received the information from God is to remain silent.

Paul however; says not to forbid to speak in tongues, but continued to say, it is better to speak five words that the church may be edified than speak ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

The above is a very short explanation or a guide if you will. The rest of the chapter is self explanatory but if anyone is still confused then let us reason together.

BTW, speaking in tongues is impossible to day as the Bible is closed and complete!

To God Be The Glory

 

[Triumph1300]

BTW, speaking in tongues is impossible to day as the Bible is closed and complete!

Well, if that's the case we might as well throw out everything else such as healing,
the laying on of hands, prophesy, miracles, love, evangelizing, the resurrection and of course salvation.
What else should be ignored?

So, where do you draw the line?
Amazing how many confused Christians there are.

I just shudder when I think about Non Christians coming to this forum and reading all the confusion going on.

 

[JunChosen]

well if that's the case we might as well throw out everything else such as healing, the laying on of hands, prophesy, miracles, love, evangelizing, the resurrection and of course salvation.

If healings, miracles, and laying on of hands are still possible for today, do you know of a believer that goes around the corridors of hospitals and do good things such as these things? NONE!!!

Likewise prophecy, evangelize, except resurrection and salvation are not miraculous phenomenon.

just shudder when I think about Non Christians coming to this forum and reading all the confusion going

To God Be The Glory

 

[CoreIssue]

a linguist went to a meeting and jumped up been said something in another language. Someone else jumped up and translated it, not even close to what he has said. Tongues are always given for a purpose, not what you see going down in a Pentecostal meeting.

 

[Paul Christensen]

The problem myself and others see is the pert near a/the self righteous contentedness/arrogance that people who speak in tongues display/project. When we are told/taught/URGED by Paul there are more better/higher "gifts", that no one appears to be earnestly possessing/coveting!
And? An overly (overtly) display of resistance by the "gathered throng/assembly of believers" of remaining that way, by ones from the pulpit preaching/teaching them that it's OK to stay that way!

In all my years of associating with Pentecostals, I have never seen or experienced what you have described. The Pentecostal movement in New Zealand must be entirely different to what you have experienced. All I have seen are groups of people who just enjoy and have fun worshiping the Lord and hearing God's Word preached. I have never heard a sermon concentrating on the gift of tongues among all the faith building, Gospel and Scripture based sermons I have heard.

Of course every church has its lunatic fringe, Pentecostal and Evangelical. But it seems that the United States is a pretty mixed up place at present with the lunatic fringe being prominent in both churches and general society.

 

[Paul Christensen]

ERROR - Soundness of doctrine does NOT come out from forming opinions but from every word of God.

Take this thread for example, the reason so many are confused about tongues is because none bother to examine the meaning of what it is, reason why God gave this phenomenon to the church of Corinth only, and what was God's purpose?

Note 1 Corinthians 1:1: "Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's"

Therefore, Paul's letter and the contents were to be distributed to all the churches, not just the Corinthians. It was that it was reported to Paul through a letter from Ce's household that there were problems with the disruptive use of tongues in the fellowship meetings. Your statement about tongues in the quote is your personal opinion not based on anything in the Scripture at all.

Reminds me when Jesus came to earth to the Nation of Israel and told them He was the Messiah and no one believed Him, just as no one believes a true believer when he comes with the truth!.

Such as when one points out all the things that Paul taught about tongues, and the opposers of tongues won't accept them, but cherry picks verses and ignores others to support their own non-Scriptural opinions.

The truth of 1 Corinthians Chapter 14 is this:... and, READ MY LIPS!

Note that the Bible was not yet complete when Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, wrote 1 Corinthians 14, BECAUSE God still had additional revelation (verse 6) for mankind, by giving the gift of a heavenly language called tongues to an individual in a church setting for edification, and to another the gift of interpretation. And, if no interpreter, the one who received the information from God is to remain silent.

Case in point. You are ignoring Paul's words: "I thank God I speak in tongues more than you all, however in the church, I would rather speak words that people can understand." To limit the speaking tongues to fellowship meetings is ignoring the basic rules of comprehension 101,

Paul however; says not to forbid to speak in tongues, but continued to say, it is better to speak five words that the church may be edified than speak ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

Anyone with basic comprehension skills will see that Paul is distinguishing personal prayer in tongues privately before God, and the use of tongues along with interpretation in the church. Opposition to tongues has been so much drummed into some to such a degree that they refuse to consider Paul's clear statements about tongues being directly primarily to God and the speaking in tongues not for interpretation the people should speak to themselves and to God, and the appropriate place is private prayer. This coincides with Jesus saying that when we pray we go into a private prayer room and pray to God in secret. That's where Paul went when he spoke in tongues more than them all, and he encouraged the Corinthians to keep their speaking of tongues for private prayer and sought to use the gift of prophecy in the fellowship meetings.

But it won't matter how many times this is said on these threads about tongues, the opposers of the gift will persist in ignoring Paul clear comments and plain language, and maintain their own prejudice against the modern use of tongues.

The above is a very short explanation or a guide if you will. The rest of the chapter is self explanatory but if anyone is still confused then let us reason together.

BTW, speaking in tongues is impossible to day as the Bible is closed and complete!

To God Be The Glory

The false teaching that the spiritual gifts ceased when the Bible became complete was not known or taught before the 19th Century. I read Calvin's commentary on 1 Corinthians 14, and he never mentions the closed canon of Scripture. Being the astute theologian he was, you would think he would say that the completed Bible meant the cessation of the spiritual gifts, including tongues, but he doesn't.

You say that we must comply with God's Word, but your statement about the impossibility of speaking in tongues is not based on any Scripture at all! The Scripture does say that the gifts will cease, and Calvin, a much better Bible teacher than you or me, maintained that they are there to compensate for our weakness, and when death occurs, our weakness will go as well, so the gifts will no longer be needed, and the final consummation will happen on Judgment Day. What Calvin is saying is that the gifts will finally cease when Jesus comes again and the Church Age will be over. He never mentions the closed canon of Scripture as a reason for the cessation of the gifts.

What he actually says is that the proof of a person's calling to the ministry is the manifestation of the gifts in his ministry. So, a minister who never has the spiritual gifts manifesting through his ministry cannot prove that he is genuinely called of God. Given the total absence of any spiritual gifts manifested through multitudes of church preachers, pastors, and ministers, one has to wonder which pastor, preacher, or minister is genuinely called of God, or whether most are doing it because they decided all on their own and without the Holy Spirit! That could explain the deadness of many churches.